There's not enough luxry boxes at the Alamo Dome to satisfy the NFL.
loose canon doesn't know what he's talking about, because those games were jammed packed! No cooking of the books necessary. However, from what I've heard and read attendence has little to do with getting a team. The NFL is looking for cities to give away the farm in tax abatements & subsidies that would rob schools, police etc...
I don't want a team that bad. btw, if I want to watch football UT is only 1hr away and dallas only 4.
two words. America's Team. LMAO
i wouldnt call us (Dallas) frontrunners though.
Your a ing idiot! What proof do you have? The city conducted a survey on whether or not this city could support the NFL, survey came back positive. Yes a lot of people from San Antonio are Cowboy fans, but we don't have a team can you blame them? The city showed great support with the time given to buy the tickets. To say the support was mediocre is ing weak of you. The Saints weren't even are team yet people bought tickets. But this isn't about the Saints its about the NFL in San Antonio. If San Antonio had its own team I guarantee you the fan base would be large and loyal. You'd have to be a fool to doubt football in south Texas would work.
So the small market and lack of a stadium is only 5%? Damn. I want my very own NFL team in Waco. If a positive at ude is a sufficient subs ute for shoring up weaknesses and discussing ways of fixing them, I know I can do it. I'm going to go bake a cake that looks like a football stadium for the NFL owners.
"Your a ing idiot". LMAO. That's golden.
What proof do I have? I was there. For all three games. I have pictures of the stands that were nowhere close to full. I'll see if I can dig them up for you.
As for San Antonio, whether they can support a team or not is up for debate. Whether they deserve to even sniff the Saints is not up for debate. The answer is no.
San Antonio is a better market than either N.O. or JAX. We already have a better venue than JAX or S.D. S.D. and N.O. are both playing in 40 YO stadiums. S.D. is broke and N.O. is broker. Neither will be able to provide a new stadium for anxious owners. JAX plays in a college stadium that has ZERO individual luxury boxes, and their naming rights deal/commitment ends next summer. I'd put our chances of having an NFL team in the next 2-3 years at 50-55%.
I try.
So what your telling me is that your basing this on what you saw, not by any actual numbers or anything? That's pretty ing re ed. I guess that's the way the NFL runs as well huh?
Like I said in my previous post, this isn't about the Saints its about the NFL in San Antonio. Fact of the matter is luxury boxes and stadium naming rights is where the money is made. And with fortune 500 companies in San Antonio like At&t, Valero, and Toyota it shouldn't be hard to get them on board. The whole deal with the mayor wanting to engage in discussions with the Saints, was more of a ploy to show the city that he was committed to bringing a team here. That's politics for you, as apposed to our last mayor who was more interested in bringing soccer to the city. As for the whole small market thing, San Antonians have been used by Jerry Jones as a supplement to the Dallas market and ratings for years. I'm very confident that San Antonio can do the same with Austin and combine the two markets. The Saints may be a pipe dream for us, but don't get it twisted and think that the team has a long term future in New Orleans. L.A. is more than likely going to be their future home. In the NFL's eyes money is >>>>>>> than fans filling up seats.
I trust my own eyes more than the "tickets sold" number which was obviously inflated by Holly Hills and other corporations that stood to reap huge rewards financially from an NFL team in San Antonio. I trust pictures that show the stadium clearly 3/4 full (tops) in the middle of the second quarter. It's a well-known fact that 10,000-20,000 tickets to each game were given away by said corporations. Go look it up in the SA-EN if you don't believe me. Even with those massive giveaways, there were TONS of no-shows. That's nothing against San Antonio, as people with no money invested in a ticket are less likely to show up, especially if the Cowgirls are playing.
Also, do yourself a favor, and look up how many luxury boxes the Alamo Dome has. You won't be so confident anymore. Bottom line is that the Alamo Dome is not an NFL stadium. The Superdome is. They just dumped something like $150 million (not sure the exact number) into bringing it up to par. New luxury boxes, new seats, new scoreboards and halo boards, etc. The Superdome is no longer outdated. If it's good enough for the Super Bowl, it's good enough for an NFL team, wouldn't you say? BTW, this is directed more at the guy two posts back, who seems to have a fantasy that the Superdome is not a viable NFL stadium.
BTW, Austin is a college town and always will be. Trust me. I live in Austin. You could MAYBE draw 3,000-4,000 season ticket holders, TOPS, from Austin... but it would be foolhardy to count on a significant bump from Austin. We can't even fill DKR for morning games, you really think scores of Austinites are going to get up at 8am and drive an hour and a half to see a team in San Antonio? Doub . Expendable time, energy, and money go to UT here, and that's never going to change.
, I'm a huge football fan and live in deep South Austin, and I wouldn't even drive to SA for games. I'd be at Shoal Creek Saloon in ATX watching the New Orleans Saints. I'm sure most Cowboys fans feel the same way about their team.
I don't really care if SA gets an NFL team or not, I won't root for them regardless. Having said that, I agree with the above poster, I just don't think they have the capacity for the luxury boxes needed to support a team. And yes, there are big corporations in SA that can back the team as you said, but will they be willing is the question? I don't really know, and again, I don't really care. You could probably argue very strongly one way or the other and it's been evidenced in this thread, both sides seem to have good arguments.
I think SA is unfortunately in a hard place being that this is already Cowboy territory and like the above person said, most in Austin probably wouldn't travel an hour to see a game in SA. My gut feeling is that SA will eventually get a team, but not anytime in the near future. We'll end up getting Football at UTSA much sooner than an NFL team IMO. Even though an arena team has failed in the past, I think SA should go after one, considering the growth that the AFL league has sustained.
As I stated in my previous post Money>>>>>Than people filling up seats that have already bean purchased. I don't think you understand that the "tickets sold" number is more important than you care to admit it is. You cant "inflate" that number as you claim they do because its the final tally of the tickets that have been sold. Once a ticket has been sold the money received from the ticket is already profit, so it really doesn't matter whether or not the seat was filled or not. Its also a well known fact that business's buy luxury box's or lower level seating to any professional sport for entertaining clients(the better the seat or luxury box shows company's status). So why wouldn't At&t or Toyota want to be involved with this venture? Even Spurs tickets and luxury suites are used for that matter(that's why I hate it when people sitting in the lower bowl at the At&t center don't stand up and cheer, chances are they are probably there on business not even real fans). Any given Sunday around the league there are NFL stadiums that aren't filled to capacity, so that cant be a leading point in this argument. Bottom line is the NFL is a business and many companies and the city stand to have some sort of gain if a team would be placed here.
The city sought out an independent company that conducts surveys for the NFL,NBA, and the other major leagues to see if San Antonio really is ready for another professional sports team. One part of the survey included the Alamo Dome(which has hosted many events including the NCAA final four and the Alamo Bowl). The estimated cost to bring it up to par was far less than actually building a new one, all cost including adding luxury box's. You forget the Dome was built for the sole purpose of placing an NFL team there. As the Super Dome had improvements, the same can be done with the Alamo Dome.
Another knock on San Antonio is the fact that even though it is the 7th largest city in the nation, its television market is one of the smallest. My whole point of combing both the Austin and San Antonio market was for the intentions of bumping up the TV market size. For example your a spurs fan in Austin right? So you probably don't make the drive down here for every game, but you do try to catch the game on TV right? Just like Dallas does with the San Antonio TV market which by the way sometimes draws bigger numbers than the Dallas area, could be done with the Austin market. With only 8 home games for an NFL team San Antonio would be just fine selling tickets for those games. Its really unfair to use what you saw during the games here on whether or not San Antonio deserves an NFL team. You didn't even consider the factors like the fact that many San Antonians gave plenty of money and support for the displaced evacuees, and even the fact that little time was given to purchase those tickets as well.
That's fine and all but your just one person. Plenty of people from south Texas are season ticket holders for the Spurs and make the commute here. The NFL has made it a point to bring football to south of the border in Mexico and is even considering in putting a team there. So it would make sense for the NFL to put a team here, being that were so close to the border. San Antonio may be Spurs city, but Texas is football country from High school football to the Cowboys and the Texans. Its one thing if San Antonio is known as Cowboy country when we don't have a team of our own. But its also another if we do have a team to call our own, and I promise you many would switch there allegiance. To watch an NFL game and to watch a college game are two completely different experiences. You cant beat either of them. But no matter how much anybody would bag to differ, you cant beat watching an NFL game in person or at home.
Last edited by THE SIXTH MAN; 10-05-2006 at 01:56 AM.
Sixth man -
The only point I'll argue is the first one.
Sure, they "sold out", but that was corporations boosting the sales during a test run. No way that Holly Hills buys 20,000 tickets, per game, for 16 games a year, every year.
The study is stupid. The Alamodome is not an NFL stadium and never will be. It's a piece of . Don't kid yourself.
As for the rest, I'm not saying San Antonio CAN'T support a team. I am skeptical of it, but I'm not ruling it out. The Austin TV market would probably be at least 1/3 for the hypothetical San Antonio team, but you also have the Cowboys, Texans, and now ans who are huge here.
Who knows. All I know is that the Saints are not leaving New Orleans anytime soon.
I take it reading comprehension is not your strongest point. This was no test run, Katrina was not planned. Bottom line is the Saints needed a place to play in a very very short amount of time. Not many city's during that time could have launched any football operations in such a short amount of time. But the city did it. You truly are re ed for not considering the fact that normal sales for tickets for any NFL city are sold way in advanced, San Antonio was only given a couple of weeks. So with this argument your bringing a Knife to a gun fight, its a non factor due to various reasons like that fact that before September people in San Antonio weren't planing on attending any NFL game. So you say Holly Hills bought 20,000 tickets for the games, the Alamo Dome seats 65,000 who bought the rest of the 45,000 seats(again not a strong argument there)?Oh and for your information genius there are only 8 home games for all NFL teams not 16.
I don't know whats more stupid, the fact that your saying that a professional study that took a couple of months to conduct because they were working with real numbers and weighing in real factors to see if the city could support a professional team. Or the fact that your just relying on your eyes and your magical pictures that you foolishly think tell the real story as to why this city cant support a team or not. Whats next your going to tell me that magic shows are real because you saw it with your own eyes? Give me a ing break and don't kid your self son. I never once bragged about the Alamo Dome. All I said is that its hosted big time events, and with the suggested amount of money it can be brought up to par with the NFL's requirements. as long as it seats 65,000 and has the added luxury boxes and a field for a team to play on, I really don't give a if its a "piece of ".
How can one say that they believe that the city can support a team, then go back and say that they're skeptical of it, and then go back and say that they're not ruling it out? As 2centsworth asked I'm beginning to wonder myself, do you really know what your talking about? I'm glad you kind of sort of came out and admitted that you were a Saints fan in your previous post because I figured out why your so hung up on believing that San Antonio cant support a team. Its not the fact that you think that the city cant support a team, you just don't want them to support your team. Which is all good with me, a few years back what a coincidence New Orleans tried to lure the San Antonio Spurs over there and I was pissed to find out that another city wanted to steal our team. But for the sake of this argument throw that out the window, because its making you bitter about the situation for all the wrong reasons. I can assure you that most of the San Antonians that went to those games went to either show support for the gulf region, show the NFL that San Antonio can be a football city, or just went to go see a football game with out having to drive to Dallas or Houston. Politics and the media were more of the driving force behind the whole Saints relocating to San Antonio story. It didn't have that much to due with the city trying to relocate the Saints here, But more to do with getting our foot in the door and try to begin some dialogue with the league about an expansion team or relocating another team here in the future.
Look I can understand that you want the Saints to stay in New Orleans, I feel the same way too I think they should stay there as well. But you cant over look the fact that what happened to the gulf coast is a lot more bigger than the game of football. A lot of rebuilding and cleaning up still has to be done around there. Its not fair for people who are trying to get back on their feet to be asked to spend what little money they have to support an NFL franchise. The fat cats of the NFL have had the weals in motion way before Katrina to put another NFL franchise in California(more likely L.A.). Also don't forget the fact that owner Tom Benson is very dissatisfied with the team's location and its current lease agreement with the Supper Dome. I do agree that right now the team will stay put, but when the Lease is up the Saints future looks pretty cloudy. The only way I see them staying in Louisiana is if Tom Benson sells the team.
Last edited by THE SIXTH MAN; 10-05-2006 at 04:40 PM.
You obviously have a persecution complex as bad as my perceived lack of reading comprehension.
Nowhere did I say that SA couldn't support a team.
I said that...
1) The Alamodome is not an NFL venue. It will never be. If SA were to stumble into a team, they would need a new stadium. Where are the luxury boxes going to go? You think they're going to magically find space for 100 new boxes in that stadium?
2) That the three games was not a valid predictor of future corporate sales. Thus the "test run". Obviously it wasn't planned, but it was a condensed, furious effort to fill the stadium and demonstrate that San Antonio can support the NFL. Guess who stood to make the most money from the NFL in SA? Holly Hills. Guess who bought all of those tickets that were given away? Holly Hills. Smoke and mirrors. You can say what you will, but there were over 5,000 empty seats for every game, regardless of tickets sold. No way Holly Hills or anyone can afford to prop up a team 8 times a year ad infinitum by buying 20,000 tickets to every game - if not more during down years and/or bad matchups. Would the people of SA sell more tickets to a team that they had ownership of? Probably. Regardless, those three games were not even close to being an accurate predictor of the future.
Also, to address a couple of points in your last post...
- Most San Antonians were not there to support the Gulf region. That's a joke. They were there to try to show the NFL that they deserved the Saints. Period.
- You can't compare the Spurs situation. That was a money issue. This was a natural disaster. Apples and Oranges.
Your ability to throw verbal jabs and twist the discussion is admirable, but you are arguing points that I'm not even addressing. You're also perceiving disrespect and insults that are not there. I never once said that SA couldn't support a NFL team - that's up for debate by minds greater than mine or yours. Get over yourself and quit trying to start a flame war that's not there.
Oh really.
I like this one because you completely contradict your self in the same sentence.
Can you honestly talk out of your ass and say that all three games here were a sign of things to come, and call it a "mediocre" effort, and then back peddle and try to say its up for debate. If its up for debate then why is it your leading argument? Cant stand the heat get the out the kitchen.
If you really don't know what your talking about then you can at least try to google it or something so you can at least not be ignorant to a matter that you know nothing of. The Dome does have room for additional luxury boxes, and if that is not enough the city of San Antonio has been starving for NFL football so much that San Antonians would vote for approval for a new stadium.
For this post you get a pink elaphant. Its the first intelligent thing that you've posted in this thread. But what I don't get is that this is your leading argument. And you disputed this point in the first part of your post, but oh well i see that you finally understand that to consider those three games as a marker as to how the city would do as host to an NFL franchise is redicuolous.
I see you dabble with a little mind reading seeing as to how you just read the minds of the masses of San Antonians that went to all three games. By the way can you tell me what tomorrow's lotto numbers are?
Actually it was an arena issue. The point I was trying to make is that I can relate to how you feel about the situation as a fan of a team who stands to lose that team due to difficult cir stances. Seriously read slowly so you can try to understand the different points of discussion.
Thanks for the admiration, but your inability to follow the discussion is pretty funny. In each and every one of my posts I address all the issues that you are debating, how is that twisting the discussion? But at the same time you keep on bringing up these weak points that you some how seem to contradict your self on. If you want to keep this debate going please come with better and a little bit more fresh points.
I love the fact that you tell me to get over my self, yet you were the one who started to post with arrogant nonsense on this thread as if you knew all the facts and had a clue as to what you were talking about. And please don't kid your self this is far from a flame war, its more of a discussion.
I'd say that not filling the stadium when everyone and their mother knows that this was basically San Antonio's time to show that they can support an NFL team is not a good sign for the future.Oh really.
I like this one because you completely contradict your self in the same sentence.
Can you honestly talk out of your ass and say that all three games here were a sign of things to come, and call it a "mediocre" effort, and then back peddle and try to say its up for debate. If its up for debate then why is it your leading argument? Cant stand the heat get the out the kitchen.
Yeah, like I said, ownership of the team might help, but regardless, this was SA's chance to showcase, and they didn't do a great job.
Link?If you really don't know what your talking about then you can at least try to google it or something so you can at least not be ignorant to a matter that you know nothing of. The Dome does have room for additional luxury boxes, and if that is not enough the city of San Antonio has been starving for NFL football so much that San Antonians would vote for approval for a new stadium.
It's anectdotal, but it was overwhelming. Almost every single person I talked to wanted the Saints to move to San Antonio permanently. To say that people showing up was a gesture of good will is an absolute ing joke. Look no further than your mayor and that rag you guys call a newspaper, and you can see where the real motives were.I see you dabble with a little mind reading seeing as to how you just read the minds of the masses of San Antonians that went to all three games. By the way can you tell me what tomorrow's lotto numbers are?
Arena = money. I know what happened. I've been a Spurs fan my entire life. Regardless, apples and oranges. Again, you're trying to twist it back on me, when you and I both know that comparing the two situations is ridiculous. You're a capable combatant of the keyboard, but your argument was still stupid, no matter how you try to twist things.Actually it was an arena issue. The point I was trying to make is that I can relate to how you feel about the situation as a fan of a team who stands to lose that team due to difficult cir stances. Seriously read slowly so you can try to understand the different points of discussion.
Can't hit a moving target bud. Every time you say something silly and I refute it, you change your argument. Any inability I have to follow the discussion comes from things like this:Thanks for the admiration, but your inability to follow the discussion is pretty funny. In each and every one of my posts I address all the issues that you are debating, how is that twisting the discussion? But at the same time you keep on bringing up these weak points that you some how seem to contradict your self on. If you want to keep this debate going please come with better and a little bit more fresh points.
I love the fact that you tell me to get over my self, yet you were the one who started to post with arrogant nonsense on this thread as if you knew all the facts and had a clue as to what you were talking about. And please don't kid your self this is far from a flame war, its more of a discussion.
When we both know you were comparing the two situations as if to say... "New Orleans wasn't above stealing a team either".Actually it was an arena issue. The point I was trying to make is that I can relate to how you feel about the situation as a fan of a team who stands to lose that team due to difficult cir stances.
Silly.
Anyway, I'm done here. Discussing with you is like discussing with a woman. As soon as something you say is proven wrong, you change your angle. Crafty, but obnoxious as all .
That sounds like Dio.Anyway, I'm done here. Discussing with you is like discussing with a woman. As soon as something you say is proven wrong, you change your angle. Crafty, but obnoxious as all .
I like this^^^ last one because you admit that the effort was there and that San Antonio can support an NFL team, and you also admit that the three games were not an indication of how San Antonio would do as host to an NFL team. My advice is that when you want to argue something pick a position and stand for it instead of flip flopping your views and opinions.
The link is Google you have a computer use it. Speaking of link, what happened to those "magic pictures" that you said you were going to post of the Dome being dead empty for all three games?
WOW I cant believe you actually talked to all that were there in attendance at those games! Your even better than a psychic, your just some sort of man who knows everything about everything!
First of let me start by laughing my ass off at a person who's asking me to believe a POLITICIAN and the MEDIA(because politics and media coverage always have the public's interest in bringing and providing the truth on every matter). You have a lot to learn about the real world son. Second, real witty of you to resort to city bashing as one of your arguing points in this discussion. Like I give a that you think the piece of express news paper is a rag. You know it does come in handy when my dog takes a massive , it holds up pretty well and doesn't tear before I put it in the trash.
Again you further prove my earlier post that reading comprehension is not your strongest point.
My argument has stayed consistent through out this thread, you on the other hand have yet to refute anything that I have posted. You keep on coming with the same week points and you never have addressed any one of my posts.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa, at what point in this thread have you proven me wrong? Can anyone help this fool out of his misery? And please if your going to try to put me down you can at least have some balls and come out and directly say it instead of trying to work in the sentence like a pussy. You can call me , , bag, nutt sniffer, or anything else, because fact of the matter is you don't know me and I don't know you. So I could care less of what some random e geek cares or thinks about me. Bottom line is let me translate this last part of your post for those who cant understand your 3rd grade style of writing. It pretty much says blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah your a women blah blah blah
Last edited by THE SIXTH MAN; 10-06-2006 at 02:21 PM.
He didn't talk to me. I was there to see the Bills, Falcons and Lions play, that's it. If he had spoke to me I'd say I rather the city of San Antonio get an expansion team, or go after the Jags or Colts. I can't see the city of San Antonio with all that New Orleans "Paper Baggage" over it's head.
Don't pay any attention to Loose Cannon, he's a in' re who must hate San Antonio so much that he goes all over the web looking for Spurs websites so he can spit out all his paranoia about the Saints possibly moving away from NOLA. Hey Loose you bag, enough already, we know what you think about the Saints never leaving NOLA. You've used up all your opinions and "facts" about SA and the NFL. We get it. I thought he had let it go already, considering the Saints are back in NOLA and show no signs of moving, yet here he is a year later still feeling the need to come and bash SA some more. He's already been banned from another web site, and I've seen his "pictures". He took a bunch of photos of the Alamodome BEFORE the game started when at least a third of the people hadn't even gotten to their seats yet, and posted them at his Saints board as "proof" that the dome was only half full. There were other photos of attendance at the Lions game DURING the actual game and you can clearly see that Loose's pictures are full of , just as he is. I went to all three games too, here are the facts: the Bills game was not full (about 57,000) , the Falcons game was a sellout, and the Lions game was about 55,000 to 58,000 in attendance (I think they did inflate the attendence to 62,000) And as for the Holly Hills argument, that only proves that the business end of San Antonio will step up and support a possible NFL team. However the sad reality is that the NFL really doesn't want San Antonio, they have made it entirely clear. Ignore Loose Cannon, he's a San Antonio bashing assclown. He goes on his Saints board and regularly bashes San Antonio about the Spurs, because they don't "sell out" every game, and yet says he's a Spurs fan. Cannon, go find another NBA team to "root" for, no one here wants to read your constant flow of oral diarrhea.
Cannon....where is your hatred for OKC who has been selling out Hornets games and have also been actively pushing for relocation?
Apples and Oranges again or does your SA hate blind you to that?
SA shamelessly attempted to poach another city's team during the worst natural disaster in recent history. , at least from where I am it looked like SA got more national attention with Hardberger and the 'SAints' than the city got during any of the Spurs trophy runs.
The Hornets move has always been percieved as temporary. The reason OKC doesn't get the bad rep from their support of the Hornets was that David Stern orchestrated the whole thing. George Shinn wanted to go to Las Vegas but Stern knew about the OKC market and the Ford Center because Mick Corbett (I think that's the mayor's name) has been talking to the league about expansion since he entered office.
19K fans a game in a three year old arena plus Clay Bennett getting his hands on the Sonics equal a NBA team in Oklahoma City sooner or later. Of course, now Seattle's getting screwed, but that's a topic for another time.
Thanks for the info bro. I knew the kid was some kind of whack job, he didn't even know that NFL teams play 8 home games a season. He couldn't even understand that I was trying to make an argument for San Antonio supporting an NFL team. He kept going on and on about the Saints! I had a feeling the kid was butt hurt over something, I just didn't know that he takes that far as to going on different message boards preaching his vagina monologues.
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