Reply With Quote
The neighbor from "The Burbs" is a daucshund? Or a glowing Jesus-impersonator?
I'd risk my immortal soul if it meant saving the life of my family.
The neighbor from "The Burbs" is a daucshund? Or a glowing Jesus-impersonator?
So, you would upset your Heavenly father, damn your soul, and ruin your familys eternal bliss to have a 1/1,000,000 chance of keeping your family alive?
That is committment!
Put them in prison, but treat them in a Christ-like way..... maybe then, they would see they had it all wrong.... Don't give them a reason to believe they were right.
But again, this problem is way more complicated than what meets the eye...
No, I was talking about the picture on your user profile.
Wow! How'd you calculate those odds.
Seems to me it was reported that all 14 upon whom these techniques were used (and waterboard wasn't necessarily the technique that worked) divulged intelligence that led to live being saved.
So, yeah, however you calculate those odds, I'd waterboard a terrorist if it stood the most remote possibility of saving my family's life. Even if it meant eternal damnation (which, by the way, I don't believe it does).
What does my family's eternal bliss have to do with anything? Why drag them into it?
Ah, the glowing Jesus impersonator...
That beautiful SOB.
Well, I don't quite recall the blurbs, but I looked up pics. Is it the guy with the facial hair, or Gary Busey?
What? Putting them in prison won't stop those whom they know are planning the next attack.
And, I wouldn't count on them ever seeing that had it all wrong. They're more tenacious in there blind beliefs than ChumpDumper.
Reason to believe they're right? Right about what and why do I care if they think they're right?
You don't know the half of it.
I still want proof of this improbable claim that you are making about all 14 tortures saving lives.
A.) How do you personally know what all 14 divulged? If you don't, youre taking either the word of the torturing gov't that will cover its own ass, or the talking heads who are taking the word of the tortuous government.
You should have a transcript before making such a crazy claim.
B.) Even if all 14 helped end terror plots...were they all different plots? Would all have definetely happened? Would all have actually succeeded?
C.) Were they even telling the whole truth?
OK.... would you personally do it?
When would you know you weren't becoming sadistically addicted to their pain?
Turambar's point, though highly facetious is dead on.... JESUS would never have tortured anyone.... His message never indicated such.
Having said that, do I support the war? YES.
Do I support torture? NO.
Waterboarding results
And for the record, waterboarding is not torture.
Definitely falls under "cruel and unusual."
... Not that the Cons ution is relevant in how we comport ourselves.
Rules are for pussies!
Milk and toast all the way around for our detainees with critical intel that could save lives! Here here!
Last edited by NeoConIV; 09-28-2006 at 09:10 PM.
Does anybody else think that johnsmith=buddyholly?
No. That's not the way it works.
While we are at it, maybe we can get them to accept Jesus as their savior. Surely you don't oppose saving souls.
I don't imagine that the the tenets of Christianity are taken into consideration by those that torture.
Likewise, I can't imagine a Christian, who by definition adheres to those tenets, should give any thought to torturing.
And you do? Then enlighten us, please.
Whooooaaaaa, I can stand by and make fun of others with random pot shots, and I can even take some abuse. However, I will not, repeat, will not stand accused of posting as more then one person on this website. I've done that once and it was out of my unbelievable hatred towards Boutons. So no, I'm not BuddyHolly and I'll thank you for never accusing me of doing that again. I'm emberassed enough that I find so much entertainment in posting on a chat board, don't lump me in with the ing nerds that take a bunch of time to make different personalities.
Thank you.
Just for the record, it is.
Going back on the principles that have made us a great nation smacks of fear. People who support such actions would quiver and cower in the corner rather than face the world with the strength of conviction.
Those who advocate torture make the terrorists right when they talk of us being the devil and using the methods of the devil.
Doing such things defeats our nation even before we have begun to fight, because we have already lost that which we say we fight for, and gives those who would harm us most the tools they need to defeat us militarily.
These propaganda tools create more terrorists faster then we can possibly kill them and allow those very same terrorists more room to operate in a climate in which such behavior is tacitly approved of by sympathizers who, although they would never actively work with murderious pyschopaths, might simply turn a blind eye at the right time in the right place.
It does not save lives, it costs them. Do not delude yourself into thinking otherwise.
I'm going to cry. Someone actually talking out against torture without smelling of partisan .
Let me express my reservations on the whole religous angle of this argument first then i'll move on to the more mechanical and ethical aspects of my view on torture.
First of all the United States is a governmental en y which has a purpose rather different than you and I do as a christian.
The role of Government is to protect it's citizenry from endangerment, therefore as to where as a christian, Christ compels us through paul's epistle to "Make you're body a living sacrifice unto God", as well as "turn the other cheek", this is christ's instruction for daily living to be executed by individuals and not nations.
Christ is silent on the role of government, you got to remember, he came to set up a spiritual kingdom and not an earthly one. The book of Romans in one of it's passages states that God, the Father, gives the government the right to execute and protect.
If we are to make "Christ the sunday school hallmark card persona" an example of shunning torture, and not the writ in it's entirety, there are countless other practices and proffesions christians should abstain from:
1.Doctors at abortion clinics
2.Military Service
3. Law enforcement
4.Espionage
etc....
Torture done in the interest of the state to protect it's citizenry, and not of personal gratification is just.
For you; being the agent of the govt, trying to extract information, are not acting on your behalf, but on the will of the state.
Repeat this with me.... "The state is not relegated to private restrictions as so put forth in the Gospels."
Now, before you ever type another token "turn the other cheek" verse, be responsible and determine yourself wether christ was referring to nation states.
Now unto the ethical and mechanical aspect.
Random Guy, do us all a favor and remind yourself that our political and practical actions in the war on terror, used in a positive way as to show goodwill, to change the hearts of potential recruits for terrorism, is useless.
To a bunch of people who are already indoctrinated in believing that allah wills everything to the advantage of the spread of Islam. You're humanistic practices will only make you look weak.
Torturing, or not torturing, Strong or weak, liberal administration or Republican, wether you grant cons utional priveleges or not, none of this will decrease the recruitment of terrorism.
Let me ask you, if Bush would have used softer language, and goodwill efforts to get an extreme conservative to sit on the high court, would all his goodwill, good times fun and rock and roll antics make you support his nomination?
Therefore Islamofanatical extremist who are on the sidelines do not care that about you're delivery, but the substance.
And on substance, you are not on their side nor do you have any inclinations to advance islam for them, therefore you are standing in the way and are a threat.
It's as if we were to serve them on a silver platter and expect them to eat it. That's what it's like to go into the mideast and use humanistic approaches to wage as they see it "a war on their God, allah and his servants". Whether it be for a just cause, like afghanistan, or to you unjust(iraq), we are on sacred grounds.
The war as Islamofascist play is always to their advantage. Their rules are, "stay out of our land while we wage war from it, and stay confined to living in fear and putting up with thousands of individual terrorist to halt from killing your people. Even if you get approval from kings to come here and extract terrorist, we will tell their people that you infidels are filthy and should die for just setting foot in our territory. There is no right and wrong, but only what Allah wills. You are to stick to fighting this war always on the defensive."
My argument is not about how cruel and dedicated and fanatical they are to obtain their goal.(killing innocents, beheading school girls etc) But how they are so fanatical that anyway you deal with them, you will always be wrong because you are not under submission of allah.
Don't play this cheap card of "But our methods will recruit more terrorist" again. It's dishonest and pointless.
Gawd, what a logical abomination, so I'm not sure where to start. Here goes:
That directly contradicts the US military's doctrine. Take a read of the newest counterinsurgency field manual.
It directly states that such things work.
How do you explain that?
But it happens to agree with the national intelligence estimate, as well as common sense.
Can we agree that the Al Qaeda types say that we are the devil, totally evil and out to rule the world, using any means at our disposal. Yes or no?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
