Another one (mvp)for Nash?

[lrrr]

Since when does fact have anything to do with the MVP award?

The FACT that Nash has more MVP's than Shaq (he of the 6 finals and 4 rings) makes the MVP award a joke in my book.

What would you expect from a bunch of 'journalists' anyway? The only individual award that matters is finals MVP.

By "value", doesn't that mean a player can carry his team to wins that really matter? 'Journalists' refer to stats. Well, stats don't win games. Just cause PHX scores more than anyone else, doesn't mean they can BEAT everyone else.

[Obstructed_View]

Steve Nash has benefitted from the fact that the media members have predicted that the Suns would suck two years in a row, and then gave Nash credit for the fact that they are lousy at predicting. They basically voted for him a second time to justify the previous year's mistake as much as anything.

Nash deserves a lot of credit for improving the Suns, but he's nothing more than a good player who made a suddenly healthy team with developing talent and a new style better, but he isn't anything approaching an MVP, IMO. Period. Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, Mark Jackson and John Stockton were all FAR better point guards in their prime and didn't even get a sniff of the MVP.

This is all just idle debate of opinions, anyway. Since MVP is a media award, Nash "deserves it" simply by virtue of the fact that he was elected to receive it just like any other MVP was. They've given the award to the wrong guy enough times over the years that Nash certainly has no reason to feel that he's particularly undeserving of the award.

[ShoogarBear]

I've never disputed that Nash is the best point guard in the game right now, or that he doesn't deserve to be recognized for what he contributes.

But his winning the MVP the past two years redefines the term "overrated" henceforth and for all time. He's been rewarded because he's been put in a system designed to generate stats, not to win championship.

You can quibble over what the definition of MVP means. My definition is easy: look at the list of who has won the award before. If you know anything about basketball, that should give you all you need to know about the historical standards applied to winning the MVP:

Maurice Podoloff Trophy
2005-06 - Steve Nash, Phoenix
2004-05 - Steve Nash, Phoenix
2003-04 - Kevin Garnett, Minnesota
2002-03 - Tim Duncan, San Antonio
2001-02 - Tim Duncan, San Antonio
2000-01 - Allen Iverson, Philadelphia
1999-00 - Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles Lakers
1998-99 - Karl Malone, Utah
1997-98 - Michael Jordan, Chicago
1996-97 - Karl Malone, Utah
1995-96 - Michael Jordan, Chicago
1994-95 - David Robinson, San Antonio
1993-94 - Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston
1992-93 - Charles Barkley, Phoenix
1991-92 - Michael Jordan, Chicago
1990-91 - Michael Jordan, Chicago
1989-90 - Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers
1988-89 - Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers
1987-88 - Michael Jordan, Chicago
1986-87 - Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers
1985-86 - Larry Bird, Boston
1984-85 - Larry Bird, Boston
1983-84 - Larry Bird, Boston
1982-83 - Moses Malone, Philadelphia
1981-82 - Moses Malone, Houston
1980-81 - Julius Erving, Philadelphia
1979-80 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Los Angeles
1978-79 - Moses Malone, Houston
1977-78 - Bill Walton, Portland
1976-77 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Los Angeles
1975-76 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Los Angeles
1974-75 - Bob McAdoo, Buffalo
1973-74 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Milwaukee
1972-73 - Dave Cowens, Boston
1971-72 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Milwaukee
1970-71 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Milwaukee
1969-70 - Willis Reed, New York
1968-69 - Wes Unseld, Baltimore
1967-68 - Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia
1966-67 - Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia
1965-66 - Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia
1964-65 - Bill Russell, Boston
1963-64 - Oscar Robertson, Cincinnati
1962-63 - Bill Russell, Boston
1961-62 - Bill Russell, Boston
1960-61 - Bill Russell, Boston
1959-60 - Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia
1958-59 - Bob Pet , St. Louis
1957-58 - Bill Russell, Boston
1956-57 - Bob Cousy, Boston
1955-56 - Bob Pet , St. Louis

Prior to the last two years, Unseld and McAdoo were clearly the most questionable winners (McAdoo was the Steve Nash of centers), but the bar has now been lowered. Winning it once was cute, but winning it back-to-back is a travesty.

[JMarkJohns]

Kidd was second in MVP voting in a similar situation with the Nets, but with far inferior stats and in a far inferior conference.

I'd call second-place a sniff. Also, defense aside, I'll take Nash over Kidd. This from a Suns fan who's seen plenty of both. Kidd's weakness' on offense (shooting, turnovers, halfcourt offense) far outweigh Nash' weakness on defense in my opinion.

I won't argue that Nash is not in Stockton's, Payton's or even Kevin Johnson's League, but I still don't think you can use a litmus test of history to judge a current players importance to his currect team. I just don't think it's fair. Not that it has to be, but I'm not certain there were players in the League the last two years terribly more deserving of the award by defining what "valuable" was meant to be. Nash is the director of the Suns record-breaking offense, the one thing that enables them to win 50+ games and adance to the Conference Finals the past two years. Just like a QB in football, that's probably lent itself to an overvaluing of his talent, but I think he was deserving for more than mere talent.

No doubt he's the least talented MVP. But his value went beyond that. He played a career high in minutes on a team that depended solely on his ability to break down a defense and find the open man. No post game. No rebounding. No defense. Just buckets and he's the catalyst. He's got his hands on the ball ever 90% of the possessions the Suns have in a game and there isn't a player in the League who shoots better or passes better as a package. He does so much offensively and takes a physical beating doing so.

I'm not saying you can't disagree. Obviously you can and it doesn't mean you're wrong.

Thing is, Nash has been one of the most important players in the League the last two years. Far and away the most important on his team and one of the few truly indispensible to his specific team.

Dallas survived, but having seen Phoenix without Nash for a solid amount of games, I can confidently say that I doubt the Suns would break .500 without him.

Lots has contributed to Nash's perceived value. The likes of which include media expectations, injury and his own play. Still, I'm sure similar cir stances surrounded several of the previous winners, who they, themselves, don't measure up to the likes of Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt or Russell.

[JMarkJohns]

Since when does fact have anything to do with the MVP award?

The FACT that Nash has more MVP's than Shaq (he of the 6 finals and 4 rings) makes the MVP award a joke in my book.

What would you expect from a bunch of 'journalists' anyway? The only individual award that matters is finals MVP.

By "value", doesn't that mean a player can carry his team to wins that really matter? 'Journalists' refer to stats. Well, stats don't win games. Just cause PHX scores more than anyone else, doesn't mean they can BEAT everyone else.

This Logic says that every MVP should have gone to Kareem, Magic, Larry or Jordan from 1970 through 1993 and to Jordan exclusively from 1996 to 1998. This would totally exclude players like M. Malone, Erving, Hakeem, Barkley, Robinson, K.Malone... the best or most talented player isn't always going to get it. He doesn't even always deserve it. Take Shaq off the Lakers in 2001, sure, they don't make the Finals, but they win 40+ games and compete for the playoffs. Take off Iverson from the 76ers and they win 20 games rather than reach the Finals.

Value. Not talent, nor best statistical season.

Specific player on a specific team in that specific year. Does Shaq deserve more than one MVP? Yes. Did Iverson or Nash deserve theirs over Shaq? Obviously those who are paid to cover the games and who have covered those we speak of over the course of history, deemed so.

Mavsfan... Nash was handpicked for the system. True. But why... perhaps the answer will enlighten you to Nash's importance to the offense. No other player could do what he does for that team. No current player, anyways.

Again, this is mere opinion vs. opinion. One man's definition of value or importance against another's and opinions are inherantly unique to each person because of personal bias.

Nash is a very good player who's played a greatly important role on a team who's offense is rewriting the record books and by being the catalyst for said offense, the same offense that allows his team with compete and win, he's received the lions share of the credit. Does said role within an All-Time offense make up for the lack of talent? Does his importance within the offense define his value to the team? Do these last two questions better help us who see his inferior talent understand that without him, the Suns probably don't win 50 games combined the last two years?

I hope, but I'm a realist and understand most don't care enough to look beyong the stats, or the names...

[cheguevara]

this gets discussed every so often and gets old.

the key is how you define MVP, is it best player in the league, or most valuable to the league, or most valuable to their team, or what?

so if the definition is not clear, how can people dispute who won? I'm sure Stern has influence on these voting and just wanted a clean player who can be a posterboy for the league. I'm 100% sure next seasons it's Lebronze's turn. So it's all going as Stern planned.

Last season it could only have gone to either Kobe, Lebron or Nash. Stern said,
"Kobe is too unpopular, Lebron is too young, , let's give it to the white boy. it's not like another white boy will have a chance anytime soon..."

[Obstructed_View]

Personally, I liked Nash's statement when he received the second MVP to end the debate: "I'm not giving it back."

[DallasFan]

Where are those pictures of "freak Nash", where he looks like he came out of the movie "The Ring"?

[AFBlue]

Nash is actually pretty underrated. The fact that some in this post would take Amare and Marion over him is an illustration of that fact. Nash may not have athleticism, but he's got the wits to score in bunches, using the three and body position when he drives the lane. Obviously what's most important is that he consistently puts the ball in the right player's hand at the right time. He realizes he's no low post threat or even the greatest 3pt shooter, though he's not shabby, and he puts the ball in those players' hands. The Phoenix Suns had Starbury and were god-awful, then they completely turned their game around when Nashty came to town...the definition of a valuable player.

I think he was the most deserving candidate last year because it was a regular season award. If it included post-season I would've given it to D-Wade in a heartbeat.

[mavsfan1000]

I would take both Amare and Marion over Nash on the mavs because Nash is such a defensive liability. Especially against the spurs and kings of the past. Bibby and Parker constantly destroyed Nash. Marion is an all around player and Amare is the inside prescence that Dallas would love to have.

[Dirk Nowitzki]

I would take both Amare and Marion over Nash on the mavs because Nash is such a defensive liability. Especially against the spurs and kings of the past. Bibby and Parker constantly destroyed Nash. Marion is an all around player and Amare is the inside prescence that Dallas would love to have.

No Nash on the Suns with Amare and Marion=lottery bound. I so agree that his D is a joke but regardless he is the glue to that team. Marion/Amare's game would suffer without a pg like Nash.

[mavsfan1000]

No Nash on the Suns with Amare and Marion=lottery bound. I so agree that his D is a joke but regardless he is the glue to that team. Marion/Amare's game would suffer without a pg like Nash.

Marion was the same with Nash as before Nash. Just look at his stats and Amare was bound to have a breakout year based on his athleticism. Maybe not as big without Nash but still he is huge. Also Barbosa has no point guard skills at all so the point guard position couldn't be any worse without Nash. Put Terry or Harris on the suns and I bet the suns are looking pretty good as well.

[ducks]

mj never won three in a row nash win three in a row you might as well throw this award out the window

[Nashfan]

Mavsfan1000,

You have got to be kidding about putting Terry or Harris on the Sun's team and them winning as much as they have in the past two year's. Nash is the glue as a few people in here have said. Terry plays one on one much like Stephon and Harris is just too out of control to run the Sun's team.

[DallasFan]

Mavsfan1000,

You have got to be kidding about putting Terry or Harris on the Sun's team and them winning as much as they have in the past two year's. Nash is the glue as a few people in here have said. Terry plays one on one much like Stephon and Harris is just too out of control to run the Sun's team.

Mavsfan did not say that...just mentioned they would be looking pretty good, which they would. They certainly looked good in the Western Conference Finals

[Nashfan]

Dallasfan,

Just barely beating the Phoenix Sun's with Raja Bell injured, and two of our front court guy's injured (Amare and Kurt Thomas) isn't all the much to be proud of. If Amare comes back to at least eighty-five to ninety percent of what he was then you don't stand a chance against the Sun's. You barely beat the Spurs and they were banged up badly (but their player's could still play). So I wouldn't go tooting your horn too soon! As to what Mavsfan1000 said, I don't think either Terry or Harris could have gotten the Sun's to the Western Conference Finals at all.

[DallasFan]

Dallasfan,

Just barely beating the Phoenix Sun's with Raja Bell injured, and two of our front court guy's injured (Amare and Kurt Thomas) isn't all the much to be proud of. If Amare comes back to at least eighty-five to ninety percent of what he was then you don't stand a chance against the Sun's. You barely beat the Spurs and they were banged up badly (but their player's could still play). So I wouldn't go tooting your horn too soon! As to what Mavsfan1000 said, I don't think either Terry or Harris could have gotten the Sun's to the Western Conference Finals at all.

W'ell see...we had our share of injuries as well..Howard, Harris, etc. Getting to the Finals is an accomplishment for any team, so don't downplay our feat. Saying we don't stand a chance against Amare is rediculous. It will be a very close matchup if anything. We also have the 3-headed monster, along with our other weapons. Also, Terry or Harris couldn't get the Suns to the Finals, but they helped the Mavs get there? That's saying something how you feel about your team.

Remember this: Amare is great, and who wouldn't want to have him. If he stays healthy, and a big "if"..you guys will be great. But, on the other hand, your high-flying offense will not be as high-flying with him in there, and will be more post-up.

The western conference will be very interesting this year. I'm going to the opener on Nov.2 against the Spurs. Should be a lot of fun.

[Brutalis]

It was a joke he has won it to begin with..

[Nashfan]

Dallasfan,

I said you did not stand a chance against the Sun's with Amare healthy not just Amare. Plus it is not a knock on my team saying Terry or Harris would not have gotten us to the WCF, Dirk and Howard is who got your team there. Nash got us there without Amare who is our dominant player like Dirk. Your team would not have made it there without Dirk. Also Amare is not a post up player as you indicated and we were high flying as you put it, with him there in the past and still will be with him in there this year. He can do other things beside dunk you know. I think he is progressing pretty well considering what he has went through. He is dunking pretty well considering the surgeries in the two preseason games he played in so far. Our team has a lot of heart and did very well last year with the injuries that would cripple most teams. Don't forget about Diaw either, he is looking like an Amare clone of late on his dunks. Don't know if you saw the preseason game they played in Germany but if you have NBA League Pass try watching and see Amare and Diaw both have great dunks. We also play as a team and Dallas seems to play a lot of one on one which is one of the reasons I think you got beat by Miami. You needed to run against them to wear Shaq and Mourning out. Oh well, we will see soon enough how both teams do this year.

[mavsfan1000]

Terry and Harris are big upgrades to Barbosa at point guard and the suns would win 50 games I would say with those players instead of Nash. You are underestimating Dallas's point guards. Both were very important to Dallas getting to the finals. Howard doesn't carry enough of the offense. Especially Terry is important. Harris is getting there.

[Nashfan]

Mavsfan1000,

Barbosa is not our back up point guard, Marcus Banks is. Barbosa is better suited as a shooting guard. Don't know why the coaches tried to make him a point guard except for maybe his size. Also Diaw handles the ball a lot. Most of our players are able to do a lot of different things on the court. It is the only way our coach likes it. That is why you won't see players like Diop and Dampier on a Sun's team because they can't shoot well enough to stay on the court for him. Still don't think Terry is a good enough point guard to get any team to 50 wins by himself, he played in Atlanta before and was not outstanding and did not get them to 50 wins. Harris is a better prospect but still too out of control to take over a team yet. Wasn't Howard your second best scorer last year? Still the Sun's need a pass first point guard with all our shooter's and Terry doesn't fit that at all. As I said before he plays more like Stephon.

[DallasFan]

Dallasfan,

I said you did not stand a chance against the Sun's with Amare healthy not just Amare. Plus it is not a knock on my team saying Terry or Harris would not have gotten us to the WCF, Dirk and Howard is who got your team there. Nash got us there without Amare who is our dominant player like Dirk. Your team would not have made it there without Dirk. Also Amare is not a post up player as you indicated and we were high flying as you put it, with him there in the past and still will be with him in there this year. He can do other things beside dunk you know. I think he is progressing pretty well considering what he has went through. He is dunking pretty well considering the surgeries in the two preseason games he played in so far. Our team has a lot of heart and did very well last year with the injuries that would cripple most teams. Don't forget about Diaw either, he is looking like an Amare clone of late on his dunks. Don't know if you saw the preseason game they played in Germany but if you have NBA League Pass try watching and see Amare and Diaw both have great dunks. We also play as a team and Dallas seems to play a lot of one on one which is one of the reasons I think you got beat by Miami. You needed to run against them to wear Shaq and Mourning out. Oh well, we will see soon enough how both teams do this year.

We stand a chance against any team in the league, regard less of who's playing. So do you guys.

Here's to a great NBA season coming up

[Obstructed_View]

The Phoenix Suns had Starbury and were god-awful, then they completely turned their game around when Nashty came to town...the definition of a valuable player.

Marbury only played 34 games for the Suns in 2004, and Frank Johnson was replaced with D'Antoni 20 games in. After trading Marbury and Hardaway for basically nothing, the Suns had Joe Johnson as the only point guard with any experience, Amare out for 30 games, and a new coaching staff. They still won 29 games. D'Antoni had a .525 record in 2003 which would be good for a 43-39 record for a full season. Given the break out season by Amare, the development of their shooters and a complete season with D'Antoni, It's foolish to think the 2004 Suns wouldn't have won at least 50 games if they had signed any other point guard instead of Nash. Nash fit great in that system and was a big reason they were the number one seed, but let's not get carried away.

It's funny that those that give Nash all the credit for the Suns' improvement are so quick to give excuses when one points out, correctly, that the Mavericks improved after he left.

[mavsfan1000]

Mavsfan1000,

Barbosa is not our back up point guard, Marcus Banks is. Barbosa is better suited as a shooting guard. Don't know why the coaches tried to make him a point guard except for maybe his size. Also Diaw handles the ball a lot. Most of our players are able to do a lot of different things on the court. It is the only way our coach likes it. That is why you won't see players like Diop and Dampier on a Sun's team because they can't shoot well enough to stay on the court for him. Still don't think Terry is a good enough point guard to get any team to 50 wins by himself, he played in Atlanta before and was not outstanding and did not get them to 50 wins. Harris is a better prospect but still too out of control to take over a team yet. Wasn't Howard your second best scorer last year? Still the Sun's need a pass first point guard with all our shooter's and Terry doesn't fit that at all. As I said before he plays more like Stephon.

Put Nash on that pathetic hawks team and they would struggle. You can't go by what happened with Terry in Atlanta. He was asked to be the go to guy in Atlanta and he isn't that. Joe Johnson sucks in Atlanta as well. Phoenix though has Marion and Amare and Terry would fit right in with their offense imo.

[Fabbs]

mj never won three in a row nash win three in a row you might as well throw this award out the window

MJ not getting MVP and instead Karl Malone and Magic Marketer in seperate years was a joke.