Pat Tillman's brother writes about U.S. Leadership (lack thereof)

[Nbadan]

All Those Lies

[01Snake]

PS. Hang your head. I am willing to forgive you.

Unlike you, and others, I'd never hang my head as an American.

[clambake]

I understand your pain, snake. The weight of truth from the Tillmans is crushing. Maybe they have worn out their usefullness for you. Who and what else would you like to bury?

[clambake]

Apologies to snake.

It took me thirty minutes to recognize that Nascar, wrestling, or Jerry Springer might not be on at this hour.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

You're right, Tillman's oppinion matters more than others who also have lost loved ones in the war.


Have fun circle jerking with this as much as you can.

(Un)luckily, Kevin Tillman has both served and lost a loved one.

[PixelPusher]

You're right, Tillman's oppinion matters more than others who also have lost loved ones in the war.


Have fun circle jerking with this as much as you can.

Don't worry your pretty little head about it. Just slap another yellow ribbon bumper sticker on your car and keep voting for the "tough talkin' guys".

Circle Jerk indeed.

[PixelPusher]

Better yet, what IS the true meaning of being an American? Enlighten me Asshat.

Perhaps a better question would be, what is it about being an American that makes you "proud"? I guessing our anwers will be very different.

[ChumpDumper]

The bots should have sat this one out.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

You're right, Tillman's oppinion matters more than others who also have lost loved ones in the war.


Have fun circle jerking with this as much as you can.

Oh, right, just like Dumbya's opinion matters more than others. Not much YOU can do but circle jerk.

[jochhejaam]

What this letter says, Joch, is this administration has destroyed the true meaning of being an American.

Thanks CB, I did understand the point of his letter. I was trying to make the point that each soldier has a unique, subjective take on the conflict, and it should be respected regardless of whether or not it's a view that I share (I think the views of most of us are evolving to some extent). Their current takes run the gauntlet from, bleeding Red, White and Blue, to wanting to hang our leadership from the nearest tree.
I have no arguement with the opinions of any of them who are putting their lives on the line, and I believe it's a disservice to them for someone else to exploit their story by hammering a political opponent with them.
Okay, great, you scored a point over him losing a brother. Way to commiserate.

(John 15: 13 - Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends)

[Clandestino]

this is his OPINION... many people who have served or are currently serving have totally opposite OPINIONS... the same goes for people who have lost loved ones. what makes his opinion carry more weight than others?

[01Snake]

I understand your pain, snake. The weight of truth from the Tillmans is crushing. Maybe they have worn out their usefullness for you. Who and what else would you like to bury?

I care about his take about as much as I do Cindy Sheehan's. Because he's a soilder, am I suppose to put more stock into what he has to say? You'll find soilders who are at odds with what Tillman thinks.

So what's your point?

[01Snake]

Perhaps a better question would be, what is it about being an American that makes you "proud"? I guessing our anwers will be very different.

Answering with asking a question. Where have we seen this before?

[turambar85]

this is his OPINION... many people who have served or are currently serving have totally opposite OPINIONS... the same goes for people who have lost loved ones. what makes his opinion carry more weight than others?

1. It matters because people on the right consistently say that anybody who says things such as that are not supporting the troops, and are treasonous liberal snakes. So, when you receive soldiers saying the same things your rhetoric has fully completed its circle to bite you in the ass. The question now is, which one will you allow to falter? Will you then say that it is ok to question the war, so that you can honor a soldier, or will you say that you only support the troops who support the war? The question is mine, but the answer is left in your hands.

2. His opinion may matter more because soldiers are, through years of hearing the same speeches, singing the same songs, and donning the same uniform, taught to believe that America is doing the right thing. It is so much easier to believe what you are told, so much easier to believe that the reason your friends and brothers are dying is right and just, that for someone to take this more difficult stance counts for a lot.

Patrick Tillmans memory, and his brothers words, will do more to silence the idiotic talk of treason and "anti-Americanism" by the right in regards to people saying ill about the war than anything I have seen thus far. It has found the unquenchable hypocrisy and lunacy in the claim that to doubt the war is to not support the troops. Have fun chewing on your own tail, but do not let it get you down too much, I have a feeling that a lot of people will be hacking hairballs after reading this article.

The rhetorical circle is complete.

[Clandestino]

it is one person's opinion... it doesn't change anything. and tillman is not the first soldier in history to ever challenge the government. this is nothing earth shattering...

[boutons_]

The positive opinions of those who served have to do, in my bet, with their own personal sacrifice and bona commitment, including being killed or maimed, physically and/or psychologically, done with courage and in good faith.

"instant history" indicates now and history will show, as it was in VN, all the US military contribution in Iraq is wasted.

Thanks to the US military for doing your job under murderously incompetent political leaders, but you knew (since you know history of VN) that was possibility when you signed up, didn't you?

[turambar85]

it is one person's opinion... it doesn't change anything. and tillman is not the first soldier in history to ever challenge the government. this is nothing earth shattering...

No, he is most assuredly not. And I suggest that you, and everybody else, see The Ground Truth. It is about 6-8 Iraq veterens who have come home and had a difficult time readjusting due to physical trauma or doubts over the war itself. They have knowingly shot and killed what ended up being civilians, and 1 from the group hung himself in his parents basement when he came home.

So, you are correct, it is not a 1-person thing. But this is something that is even worse for the cause. Many troops have come home and voiced their problems with this war, one from the film was even jailed for doing so.

But the difference is that the Tillmans are public figures in a way. Everybody knows about them, and you could probably even find them on wikipedia. They not only have a certain power about them to attract national media, but we all respect that family, we know them to be true patriots, not liberal-terrorist mouthpieces. They went because they wanted to fight for the country that they loved, not because they needed some spare cash for college or felt they had no future like a large percentage of recruits. They actually went down, and volunteered themselves, they weren't hammered by a recruiter. And now, one of these national patriots is voicing his problems with the war, and what is the right to do? His patriotism is unimpeachable, so how now (brown cow) do you go about continuing on your path of labeling all protestors treasonous liberal assholes?

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE]

1. It matters because people on the right consistently say that anybody who says things such as that are not supporting the troops,

So, if people on the "right" weren't saying these things, it wouldn't matter?
Poor reasoning.

[Clandestino]

No, he is most assuredly not. And I suggest that you, and everybody else, see The Ground Truth. It is about 6-8 Iraq veterens who have come home and had a difficult time readjusting due to physical trauma or doubts over the war itself. They have knowingly shot and killed what ended up being civilians, and 1 from the group hung himself in his parents basement when he came home.

So, you are correct, it is not a 1-person thing. But this is something that is even worse for the cause. Many troops have come home and voiced their problems with this war, one from the film was even jailed for doing so.

But the difference is that the Tillmans are public figures in a way. Everybody knows about them, and you could probably even find them on wikipedia. They not only have a certain power about them to attract national media, but we all respect that family, we know them to be true patriots, not liberal-terrorist mouthpieces. They went because they wanted to fight for the country that they loved, not because they needed some spare cash for college or felt they had no future like a large percentage of recruits. They actually went down, and volunteered themselves, they weren't hammered by a recruiter. And now, one of these national patriots is voicing his problems with the war, and what is the right to do? His patriotism is unimpeachable, so how now (brown cow) do you go about continuing on your path of labeling all protestors treasonous liberal assholes?

the only one who we knew about was pat tillman... we had never even heard of the rest of the family until he died. so, honestly, they are just like the millions of others who have served. nothing makes their opinions hold any more weight.

wow, 6-8 iraqi veterans have had trouble adjusting? hundreds of thousands have served and you are talking about 6-8???

and just because he once volunteered doesn't mean ... ALL SOLDIERS ARE VOLUNTEERS...and some decide later they don't like it and desert or voice their OPIONS.. regardless, his OPINION holds no more weight than anyone else.

[turambar85]

[QUOTE=jochhejaam]

So, if people on the "right" weren't saying these things, it wouldn't matter?
Poor reasoning.

I'm sorry, but I don't quite see where you are going, or what you mean, with this post.

But I do know that you must be mistaken, that the only poor reasoning is the people who say that if you do not support the troops, which, to them means put a sticker on your car and never say anything ill about the war, that you support the terrorists. Well, what do these same people say when troops "don't support the troops"?

This, to me, is not about proving how wrong the Iraq war is, since this has been done by millions of people on multiple occasions, and the poor horse has long been dead, it is about eliminating the disgustingly foolish and naive rhetoric by some on the right in regards to being "anti-American."

[turambar85]

the only one who we knew about was pat tillman... we had never even heard of the rest of the family until he died. so, honestly, they are just like the millions of others who have served. nothing makes their opinions hold any more weight.

wow, 6-8 iraqi veterans have had trouble adjusting? hundreds of thousands have served and you are talking about 6-8???

and just because he once volunteered doesn't mean ... ALL SOLDIERS ARE VOLUNTEERS...and some decide later they don't like it and desert or voice their OPIONS.. regardless, his OPINION holds no more weight than anyone else.

Actually, clandestino, there is a large difference in how Tillman and the average soldier joined the ranks of the elite. The common soldier is found at the mall by a military recruiter during a time of peace. He/she is told that the army will be a fun experience, a way to get out of the mundane, and that they will get thousands of dollars for school when they are done. They rarely think they might actually be sent into a terrible war-zone, or that they might die. Tillman, however, approached them and said that, after war was inevitable, that he would like to go fight for his country. That is infinitely more patriotic than doing it for cash or excitement, and that is why it is worth mentioning. His patriotism is unimpeachable.

He needed no money, his life was exciting, and he knew he was going to war and could die, but he did it anyway.

Now, the fact that 6-8 people were on the movie does not mean that only 6-8 people think this war is wrong. There are large groups/organizations of veterens against the war. The movie is just to see in order to understand what it is like for them. That is completely ignorant to try to dismiss it because of the number of people within the movie itself. I could, by that logic, watch a movie about a serial killer and assume that there is only 1 in the world, and that it is no problems whatsoever. Come on...

[clambake]

There is a strict regimen of what is hammered, daily, into the heads of our troops.

Too bad so many had to die before finding out the truth.

By the way, every right wing lie supporter knew everything about the Tillman's before they left to go fight, and you rode their backs all the way to the front. They were the poster child of this foolish endeavour. Now you pretend their honor is fleeting, and it doesn't mean anything anymore.

I guess they have worn out their usefullness for you. I guess it's time to throw them away.

[Clandestino]

honestly, i had never heard of pat tillman before he died..

[Clandestino]

Actually, clandestino, there is a large difference in how Tillman and the average soldier joined the ranks of the elite. The common soldier is found at the mall by a military recruiter during a time of peace. He/she is told that the army will be a fun experience, a way to get out of the mundane, and that they will get thousands of dollars for school when they are done. They rarely think they might actually be sent into a terrible war-zone, or that they might die. Tillman, however, approached them and said that, after war was inevitable, that he would like to go fight for his country. That is infinitely more patriotic than doing it for cash or excitement, and that is why it is worth mentioning. His patriotism is unimpeachable.

He needed no money, his life was exciting, and he knew he was going to war and could die, but he did it anyway.

Now, the fact that 6-8 people were on the movie does not mean that only 6-8 people think this war is wrong. There are large groups/organizations of veterens against the war. The movie is just to see in order to understand what it is like for them. That is completely ignorant to try to dismiss it because of the number of people within the movie itself. I could, by that logic, watch a movie about a serial killer and assume that there is only 1 in the world, and that it is no problems whatsoever. Come on...

oh really? at the mall? that is where most of our soldiers are found? where did you find that information? also, we have been in many wars lately. 91, 95, 98, etc... so, the part about never thinking they'd have to go to war is ridiculous.

on another note. i joined the military before my senior year of high school. i did it because i always wanted to be a soldier growing up. i didn't need money for school or a way out, etc... but that doesn't make me anymore heroic than the next guy. heroism is not based on why you joined the military. it also doesn't make my opinion carry any more weight than the next guy either

[PixelPusher]

Thanks CB, I did understand the point of his letter. I was trying to make the point that each soldier has a unique, subjective take on the conflict, and it should be respected regardless of whether or not it's a view that I share (I think the views of most of us are evolving to some extent). Their current takes run the gauntlet from, bleeding Red, White and Blue, to wanting to hang our leadership from the nearest tree.
I have no arguement with the opinions of any of them who are putting their lives on the line, and I believe it's a disservice to them for someone else to exploit their story by hammering a political opponent with them.
Okay, great, you scored a point over him losing a brother. Way to commiserate.

nope. It's more like he takes a way a point from those who sought to portray his brother's death as a heroic sacrifice by lying about how he died.