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Never been on a team with a good GM.That'd be your loss. KG ever accomplished any wins of importance.
That'd be your loss. KG ever accomplished any wins of importance.
And you all can talk about Dirk's non-D all you wan't, but he plays a uva lot more D than Nash does.
Never been on a team with a good GM.That'd be your loss. KG ever accomplished any wins of importance.
The bill simmons column, really really made me feel bad for him.
Garnett that is...
McHale should have been fired YEARS ago.
By that token, AI should be in the top 8 as well....
KG should not have a free pass or allowed to complain when ur earnin half ur teams cap....
Yeah, that's real pertinent to this discussion.
And LMAO at the Mavs fans talking about Dirk over KG.
I'd like to see what would happen if Dirk ever played on a team. He'd fold easier than a paper cup.
Exactly - except he did fold in the 4th quarter of all their losses in the Finals as just a precursor to your argument. Dirk doesn't play D (when he does, he's not called for fouls, which we all saw in the final 5 minutes of the Friday night game), and he doesn't show up when it counts, except when he's getting 24 FT attempts per game....
Nash doesn't play good individual D, but he generally plays smart team defense by playing the passing lanes and doesn't get into foul trouble, which is important because he is the player the Suns need most on the court... I'd trade Amare for Marion on the list in about 6 months (hopefully - and if he can take a class from Duncan on how to nail the 15-19 ft jumper).
I used to not respect Dirk too much but not anymore. The team around him isn't that good and he got them to the finals. Josh Howard and Jason Terry? Those guys are borderline All-Stars at best. Who else on the Mavs is that exceptionally talented?
Dirk has evolved into a freaking monster. Last year in the playoffs in the first three rounds and two games into the Finals, he was playing at amazingly high level.
Dirk > KG. Easily.
KG right now has enough talent around him that he should make the playoffs. Dirk doesn't have close to as much talent around him as Duncan or Shaq have and he'll make it deep into the playoffs.
The only reason this is even being discussed is because of Drik's season last year, and the only reason he had that is because AJ whipped his ass into shape. KG never had a coach who understands how to win in the postseason.
If AJ could finally get Dirk to make an occasional foray into the lane, what do you think he'd be able to do with Garnett? What would he have done with a power forward who actually does more than pay lip service to playing defense?
Put Dirk into that mess in Minnesota, and they win 20 games while he sets the record for most three-pointers attempted.
Interesting.
Yeah, but you put KG on Dallas and the Spurs sweep them. Dallas killed the Spurs with offense. The Spurs didn't have a player who was capable of guarding Dirk. Dirk caused all the matchup problems.
Replace him with KG and the Spurs have Duncan and Horry to go against him. That's two players who have had huge success against him in the playoffs. Even Nazr and Rasho wouldn't have been horrible matchups.
In KG's one playoff run past the first round, he was the third option late in games behind Cassell and Sprewell. Dirk turned the corner last year and joined the Tim Duncan status as a bigman who is a certified go-to option late in games in the playoffs.
a) The whole point is an AJ-coached KG is not the same as a Flip-coached KG. He wouldn't have been the third option.
b) Dirk didn't beat us. Terry and Howard and Harris did because we were so worried about Dirk (aka Small Ball).
My .02...
I think TimVP is right to an extent...I disagree that Dirk's team isn't that good, he's got guys that make it impossible to double team him, and he's always had that. I hate Terry as much as anyone but Terry is pretty good at punishing people that leave him open, and he's clutch. Stack has been the best player on a division winner before. KG would definitely have had more success in his career had he had some of Dirk's supporting casts.
But that doesn't make Dirk any easier to guard.
KG is much more of a traditional bigman than Dirk. Dirk is the biggest shooting guard in NBA history.
There's never been a 7 footer that can move, get his own shot off the dribble and then shoot like Dirk. It's not going into the paint that makes Dirk tough...it's his shooting. IF KG went more into the paint than he does now...he'd still be nowhere near the deadly shooter Dirk is.
KG can't shoot anything like that, not even in the same stratosphere as Dirk...sure he's a pretty good shooter and perimeter player compared to most 7 footers in NBA history...
But Dirk is a pretty good shooter and perimeter player compared to any shooter and perimeter player in NBA history, without being 7 feet tall....make him 7 feet tall and he's an impossibly good shooter. That's what makes him tough...Dirk is a lot closer to Kobe or TMac than he is to Garnett offensively.
Last edited by whottt; 11-27-2006 at 03:34 AM.
I agree that AJ is a demi-god but he wouldn't be able to turn KG into a nightmare matchup for the Spurs. Was he going to teach KG the art of hitting three-pointers?
Even if KG was being a monster and averaging 40 a game, the Spurs can handle that (See: Stoudemire, Amare). What the Spurs couldn't handle was a big they had to guard with a small. How many times have you seen Bowen switched off on KG?
Uh, Dirk averaged 27.1 points and 13.3 rebounds while shooting 53% from the floor. He also got to the free-throw line 80 times where he shot over 90%. He averaged 1.73 points per shot, by far the best number on the Mavs. No one outside of Dirk shot over 45% for the series against the Spurs.
Dirk was the one hitting the clutch shots from the field and the line in games 3, 4 and 7. Dirk was awesome. I dislike the Mavs as much as anyone but I have to show respect where respect is due.
Dirk was a machine and was playing at a higher level than KG ever has.
i think you cant really switch players on every other team, cause you gotto look at other stuff besides switchin players, for example coaching, players, salary cap.
Dirk went to a team that was clearly rebuilding, same situation as KG, but KG d up by signin up a huge contract that took up half the teams cap that didnt give them any flexibility in the FA market, plus playin in the sticks wont attract players besides gold digger players. Had KG played with the mavs, i dont think it will change either, Cuban would just throw a max at him and he would signed it and not care about the future besides his own. So he should also take the blame for his responsibility.
Lookd at the players he had at his disposal with the pups:
marbury = self claimed best PG in teh league hahaha
spree + cassell = made the idiot mvp overnight and then when things go wrong due to thier personnel needs and wants, the team folded and both was shown the door, if KG was a leader than he wouldve set them down and talk to them, but we do not know the inside story so he shouldve taken probable measures with the matter if he is to be a vocal leader of the court.
Billups = yeh he wasnt that good, but when he left he played good
rasho = dude won a ring with us for godsakes PWNED
Duncan
Kobe
LeBron
Dirk (although switched between LeBron given a nightly basis)
Wade
Nash
AND if we're going by the "the team is only ok without him, good with him" arguement that people use for Nash ALL the time, you HAVE to put Gasol into consideration as the seventh best player.
I mean, KG has the stats, but really, his teams should never be as bad as they are, not like his teammates are downright awful. Look at Atlanta, they're doing better than last year and their "leader" is Joe Johnson!
Gasol is in the top 10 best NBA players and nobody really talks about it much, although when the Grizzlies start winning with Gasol back I hope he gets some credit.
Suns are sucking WITH Nash this year!
Gasol had a break out year last year, won the championship in FIBA with Spain (sure he didn't play in the final game, but still), and his team is terrible without him, and a good team with him.
But Marion and Billups are top 15 players in my mind, but no means should they be in the top 7. Marion is the perfect complimentary player, and Billups is a top 5 PG, but not top 7 overall! I'd put Chris Paul over him next year. even Parker is better than Billups... Parker might as well be the best PG in the entire league!
I agree about Marion...he's not a franchise type player at all and is better classified as a highly skilled role player.
Garnett in 2004 was superior to Dirk in 2006. Matchups to me don't mean as much as talent and pure production in an 82 game season.
Garnett was the better overall player that year when he had Cassell. His defense was easily better, and his offense was about the same given he was a much better passer than Dirk. Granted Dirk was/is the superior scorer.
I think Garnett gets too much crap about his lack of playoff achievements -- in 2004 and 2005 he was putting up numbers like a prime Hakeem and Drob. True he never had a monster playoffs, but he never had good support -- and when he did Cassell got injured in that one year anyway.
Dirk has been superior this year to Garnett -- but in the last 2-3 seasons Garnett has easily been the better player. Surround Garnett with the same supporting cast as Dirk, and he would figure things out too after a year or two. Remember Dirk in the 2005 playoffs? Played horribly, and his teamattes weren't actually doing that bad themselves. Took Dirk another year to get things in gear. Garnett had one chance, and his best teamatte got injured when they needed him most.
Can't really compare their situations. But in the last 2-3 years Garnett has been the superior player.
Dirk > Marion.
TD rocks.
Theres a difference in statpadding on a one man team doing everything and disappearing the next season as compared to someone who has been consistent outhrough there career including chokin in the finals. Every KG loves to boast about his stats against the fakers 4hof team where he put up monster stats, even duncan put up monster stats in that series and couldnt beat the lakers that year, you dont see spursfans going around boasting and over a series, it was just that the spurs met the lakers a round earlier as compared to the wolves who met them in the WCF.
you cant say that, every team battles with injured players, even karl malone was injured in the finals against teh pistons you dont see fakers using that as an excuse. tim duncan played on 2 bumb ankles out through a series, you dont see him complaining, winners dont need excuses. And when ur the franchise player its ur duty to step up or get the other 11 active players that night to step up.I think Garnett gets too much crap about his lack of playoff achievements -- in 2004 and 2005 he was putting up numbers like a prime Hakeem and Drob. True he never had a monster playoffs, but he never had good support -- and when he did Cassell got injured in that one year anyway.
last 2-3 years yes KG>Dirk, but dirks team has done better as compared to KGs.Dirk has been superior this year to Garnett -- but in the last 2-3 seasons Garnett has easily been the better player. Surround Garnett with the same supporting cast as Dirk, and he would figure things out too after a year or two. Remember Dirk in the 2005 playoffs? Played horribly, and his teamattes weren't actually doing that bad themselves. Took Dirk another year to get things in gear. Garnett had one chance, and his best teamatte got injured when they needed him most.
surround Garnett with another franchise players casts, always the same lame excuse i hear all the time, im sure you can put any of the top5 players in the league and switch them on contending teams and they go deep with the right cast. The only person you can blame here is KG and the wolves management, dont get n jealous cose td, dirk, brand, shaq+kobe, suns team have good management and scouting. So what cassell got injured, ewing was out in the 99 finals, the knicks still showed up for a fight, malone was injured against the pistons and the fakers showed up with kobe tossing the game away, every damn thread that mentions about KG compared to another successful player always bring up with the same roster management excuse. there are other franchise guyz on worst performing teams, you dont see them complaining.
superior in stats yesCan't really compare their situations. But in the last 2-3 years Garnett has been the superior player.
team superior no
has a big influence on a game? thats disputable, as both players bring something different intangibles to the game. KG can do everything on the court and that can be contained as dirk who can not be stopped as he plays out of position for his height which creates mismatches where he can basically score everywhere on the court, ask TMAC he give you an answer. He doesnt need to play defense, as its the mavs systems that works perfect but not identical to the spurs/pistons defense.
DIRK is good, but i dont like it when KG fans bring him down to the lvl of brand or the next tier, this guy has been consistent year after year, and his team has gone deep. He gets my respect though.
Another player that i feel underrated but doesnt get enough respect is Elton Brand.
His a bit different to Garnett
Garnett has player with many good players who have left and go, has a rich owner willing to spend.
Brand played on a team that was stacked with talent, but a cheap owner didnt wanna spend when they had miles, andre miller, qrich at there disposal and didnt resign any of them. Brand also puts up consistent stats on a losing team, you dont see him complaining, then last year he finally had help from a guy name cassell, and both took them deep into the playoffs.
KG=BRAND when they had no help
kg=brand when they had help, made them look like mvps, but in truth it was the other player that made them that good.
I'd put Dirk on the list instead of NASH. He overrates Nash's defense by calling it "a total lack of straight up defense" - by qualifying the defense he lacks it implies Nash has ANY defense. And any player with no defense does not belong on the best list. Dirk, at least, has learned to play a little bit of defense, occassionally, and Lebron is the same way.
I'd probably put AI on that list somewhere, personally, though I'm not sure who I'd dump.
Just because Rosen put Duncan #1, it does not make him any less of a senile, Phil Jackson-gumballing asshat.
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