Finley's Slump

[MannyIsGod]

Those of you that are saying the Spurs should consider trading him obviously are having trouble understanding how the salary situations work in the NBA with trades when a team is over the cap. Trading Finley would be a lateral move AT BEST and would far more likely just be a step backwards. It doesn't make any sense to trade a minimal contract when you're over the cap and when you won't get anything of value in return.

[Fabbs]

He had the same stats against the Kings that he did against the Mavs. Finely is playing right now because there are really no other options. Do you want to play Jacque Vaughn over him? Before the last game, no one would have advocated playing Williams in front of him.

As for Finley knowing his role, I promise you he's not doing anything other than what Pop asks him to do otherwise he'd be benched.

Well he was little better vs Dallas but yes about the same. He did fine other then his wussified D vs Dirk, but then that was LordPop making that assignment. I want to see Barry and Elson getting minutes ahead of him.
TD Elson Parker GNob Bruce Barry Fabs. The rest go with the hot hand.

Those of you that are saying the Spurs should consider trading him obviously are having trouble understanding how the salary situations work in the NBA with trades when a team is over the cap.

Manny we are saying, at least I am saying put the Finley trade out there. You have heard of Isiah Thomas haven't you? Nothing comes back, oh my how did that work out with Barry.

As for Finley knowing his role, I promise you he's not doing anything other than what Pop asks him to do otherwise he'd be benched

Or maybe we could pachage Finley and Pop to L.A. for Bynum and Phil Jackson.

[JamStone]

VaSpursFan made the most poignant point to me. Finley doesn't have confidence. The very best shooters with no confidence will fail more times than not, especially in games with the pressure on.

Finley has always been a set shot jump shooter. And, he used to have the most rigorous and meticulous off-season conditioning and jump-shooting programs. I have a few friends that used to train in Chicago at the same gym. They said he worked on his jumper everyday in the summer, six days a week, like crazy.

In the past few years, especially with some of the injuries he's had, he doesn't go through the same rigorous program, not only in the off-season, but during the season as well.

But, again, it goes back to confidence. His form, his technique in his jumpshot is the same. His body is programmed with muscle memory how to shoot properly. It goes back to his confidence.

[MannyIsGod]

Well he was little better vs Dallas but yes about the same. He did fine other then his wussified D vs Dirk, but then that was LordPop making that assignment. I want to see Barry and Elson getting minutes ahead of him.
TD Elson Parker GNob Bruce Barry Fabs. The rest go with the hot hand.



Manny we are saying, at least I am saying put the Finley trade out there. You have heard of Isiah Thomas haven't you? Nothing comes back, oh my how did that work out with Barry.

Elson getting more minutes than him is irrelevent. They dont' play the same position. I suppose you could play 4 centers out there but that might be a tad bit stupid.

You still fail to understand that due to Finley's contract he we cannot get anything back of value other than a minimum contract!!!! I don't know how to put it more plainly than that to you. You can package Finley with a larger contract, but WHY? It makes no sense whatsoever.

As far as putting it out there, thats ridiculous. Barry's situation wasn't a threat, it was a trade that was DONE but was denied by the NBA office. Pop didn't go up to Barry and tell him I'm shopping you around, he told him pack your bags you're a Hornet. I am quite certain that Finley knows he is tradeable.

[Fabbs]

Elson getting more minutes than him is irrelevent. They dont' play the same position. I suppose you could play 4 centers out there but that might be a tad bit stupid.

You still fail to understand that due to Finley's contract he we cannot get anything back of value other than a minimum contract!!!! I don't know how to put it more plainly than that to you. You can package Finley with a larger contract, but WHY? It makes no sense whatsoever.

As far as putting it out there, thats ridiculous. Barry's situation wasn't a threat, it was a trade that was DONE but was denied by the NBA office. Pop didn't go up to Barry and tell him I'm shopping you around, he told him pack your bags you're a Hornet. I am quite certain that Finley knows he is tradeable.

Two bigs is what i recommend. Fabs is not a big.
I put out the lineup I liked, can't imagine you would disagree with it.

Why with GNob out 30% Findawg picked up the starts and minutes and not 60% Barry is because ____?

As for trades and not getting anything back, have you seen some of the ridiculous trades that happen regularly in the NBA? Oh yes it is possible. Now that it probably won't happen, fine. But impossible, no it isnt.
Finley knows he could be traded? I doubt that. He has clearly been given the message that he can suck and consitently suck and the minutes will continue to roll. Unlike other Spurs.

I thought Barry was told of his being shopped.

[Fabbs]

Will we ever get to see the playoff series where both Barry and Finley are hot at the same time?

Actually vs Kings R1 last year they were both on.

[Kori Ellis]

You still fail to understand that due to Finley's contract he we cannot get anything back of value other than a minimum contract!!!!

What?

Why would they get a minimum contract back? Finley makes $3M a year from the Spurs.

[2centsworth]

Fin has no value until he cuts down on the twinkies and starts running 50 suicides a day.

[MannyIsGod]

What?

Why would they get a minimum contract back? Finley makes $3M a year from the Spurs.

Say what? How did they sign him for more than the vet min?

[MannyIsGod]

Two bigs is what i recommend. Fabs is not a big.
I put out the lineup I liked, can't imagine you would disagree with it.

Why with GNob out 30% Findawg picked up the starts and minutes and not 60% Barry is because ____?

As for trades and not getting anything back, have you seen some of the ridiculous trades that happen regularly in the NBA? Oh yes it is possible. Now that it probably won't happen, fine. But impossible, no it isnt.
Finley knows he could be traded? I doubt that. He has clearly been given the message that he can suck and consitently suck and the minutes will continue to roll. Unlike other Spurs.

I thought Barry was told of his being shopped.

Go Google this: NBA Collective Bargaining Agreement.

[MannyIsGod]

What?

Why would they get a minimum contract back? Finley makes $3M a year from the Spurs.

Well, he is making 3 million. I was under the impression he had a vet min deal. Either way, the point stands that we'd get back crap. There are virtually no players that make less than that who would be worth trading for.

[Kori Ellis]

Say what? How did they sign him for more than the vet min?

The Spurs had $2.675M available and that's what he got to start with 8% raises. 3years/player option on the third year I believe. So this year he makes around 2.9M and next year he'll get 3.1M.

[sprrs]

are you kidding? that hurt Barry so bad he whined to the press. That was the worst move the Spurs made all year. If they really wanted to trade Barry, they should have goten the deal done. Now that JR Smith is succeeding in Denver, it makes people second guess that non-trade even more. No matter how good Barry does, he still knows he was almost abadoned by his team.

That near trade was the best thing that could have happened for us and Barry. His play was great after the deadline and he's even said it was a wake-up call for him.

And it wasn't the Spurs who pulled the plug on that trade, it was the Warriors. They most likely would have traded Barry had it not been for that.

[Kori Ellis]

And it wasn't the Spurs who pulled the plug on that trade, it was the Warriors. They most likely would have traded Barry had it not been for that.

Actually neither team pulled the plug on the Barry trade to the Hornets. It was a done deal. The paper work got to the league office five minutes late, that's why it didn't go through.

I agree that it was great that it almost happened though. It lit a fire under Barry. But I still wonder what JR would have been able to do here.

[Kori Ellis]

VaSpursFan made the most poignant point to me. Finley doesn't have confidence. The very best shooters with no confidence will fail more times than not, especially in games with the pressure on.

Finley has always been a set shot jump shooter. And, he used to have the most rigorous and meticulous off-season conditioning and jump-shooting programs. I have a few friends that used to train in Chicago at the same gym. They said he worked on his jumper everyday in the summer, six days a week, like crazy.

In the past few years, especially with some of the injuries he's had, he doesn't go through the same rigorous program, not only in the off-season, but during the season as well.

I don't know why you think that. He says he had the most rigorous offseason program this past summer than he's had in years.

[timvp]

What's funny to me is Spurs fans who are being patient with Finley but then want Horry to go away. Finley's numbers are down across the board -- not just his shooting stats. He's not doing anything as well as last year ... except turning the ball over at about the same rate.

Horry, on the other hand, is doing everything better than last year except shooting. And even with his shooting way off, he still averages more points per shot than Finley.

On top of that, Horry has shown that he can come off of a quiet regular season to be a very good playoff performer. Finley has had seasons where he played great in the regular season only to disappear in the playoffs.

If a Spurs fan was looking for someone to exile from Spurs Nation, right now there's no way Horry should enter the conversation before Finley.

[MannyIsGod]

What's funny to me is Spurs fans who are being patient with Finley but then want Horry to go away. Finley's numbers are down across the board -- not just his shooting stats. He's not doing anything as well as last year ... except turning the ball over at about the same rate.

Horry, on the other hand, is doing everything better than last year except shooting. And even with his shooting way off, he still averages more points per shot than Finley.

On top of that, Horry has shown that he can come off of a quiet regular season to be a very good playoff performer. Finley has had seasons where he played great in the regular season only to disappear in the playoffs.

If a Spurs fan was looking for someone to exile from Spurs Nation, right now there's no way Horry should enter the conversation before Finley.

Well, I'm not advocating we keep playing Finely in front of other options. I think when Manu is healthy, Barry should definetly get more minutes than Finley and I think we should definetly give Williams more oppotrunities to see if what he did last game was a fluke or if he really has game left.

The problem is that unlike the 4/5, we don't have many other options right now. With Manu out Finley almost has to play minutes because he's the best option we have, slump or no slump. Horry is taking away early season minutes from guys who could use them far more than he can. Elson and Bonner have a lot more to learn and gain from playing in those games and they argueably can't do much worse than what Horry has been giving.

Apples and Oranges.

[Kori Ellis]

Elson and Bonner have a lot more to learn and gain from playing in those games and they argueably can't do much worse than what Horry has been giving.

Bonner can be a good shooter and hustle guy in small stretches (though he's shooting sub 38% on the season). But I'm still not sure if Elson's "good play" is a mirage or not. Only time will tell. His +/- sucks and he doesn't seem to be catching on yet.

[MannyIsGod]

Bonner can be a good shooter and hustle guy in small stretches (though he's shooting sub 38% on the season). But I'm still not sure if Elson's "good play" is a mirage or not. Only time will tell. His +/- sucks and he doesn't seem to be catching on yet.

It doesn't add up to me, because I see him active as when he's in the game. I don't seem him make a ton of mistakes, although I do notice him make the same out of position mistakes that most new players to the Spurs make at first. It just doesn't make sense to me that he seems to be playing well with no huge mistakes and to have those hugely negative numbers.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't seem him make a ton of mistakes

I think that's where his teammates and coaching staff might disagree.

[timvp]

Well, I'm not advocating we keep playing Finely in front of other options. I think when Manu is healthy, Barry should definetly get more minutes than Finley and I think we should definetly give Williams more oppotrunities to see if what he did last game was a fluke or if he really has game left.

The problem is that unlike the 4/5, we don't have many other options right now. With Manu out Finley almost has to play minutes because he's the best option we have, slump or no slump. Horry is taking away early season minutes from guys who could use them far more than he can. Elson and Bonner have a lot more to learn and gain from playing in those games and they argueably can't do much worse than what Horry has been giving.

Apples and Oranges.

Valid points.

However, I think there's more options if Finley isn't producing. You can run more of the Parker and Beno backcourt. Bonner played small forward last year, so you can fit him in against the slower small forwards. As you said, Williams can get some minutes.

I expect Finley to break out of his slump but right now he's played worse than anyone on the team. And Finley isn't a player than can make up for his bad shooting by doing something else. He's a shooter first and that's it.

[timvp]

It doesn't add up to me, because I see him active as when he's in the game. I don't seem him make a ton of mistakes, although I do notice him make the same out of position mistakes that most new players to the Spurs make at first. It just doesn't make sense to me that he seems to be playing well with no huge mistakes and to have those hugely negative numbers.

I don't get his low +/- numbers either. It's not because he is playing with the bench, because his +/- numbers are bad even playing with the rest of the starters. The player Duncan plays worst with according to +/- numbers? Elson.

If I had to take a guess, his low +/- numbers are indicative of him not rotating fast enough on defense combined with the rest of the team not trusting him to rotate. If they don't trust him to be in the right spot, the other players will be out of position more often and that leads to poor defense. It's not all Elson's fault, but as of right now the Spurs don't play well when he's on the court.

[Fabbs]

Go Google this: NBA Collective Bargaining Agreement.

The Collective Bargaining Agreement says the Spurs cannot play two bigs, trade Finley or play Barry instead of Finley when GNob is out?

You say dogmatically that the Spurs cannot trade Finley for squat. Now that you know he is not vet min but 3 million per is he still untradeable?

[Fabbs]

I don't get his low +/- numbers either. It's not because he is playing with the bench, because his +/- numbers are bad even playing with the rest of the starters. The player Duncan plays worst with according to +/- numbers? Elson.

Can you post those Duncan with Elson numbers? I keep seeing 6-0 when he plays 20+ minutes and 4 of 5 Spurs losses with him chained to the bench.
In fact compare the he to Fabs #s vs Utah.

Also, do you or Kori have any thoughts or insider stuff as to why Finley has Sacred Cow status? Not playing well, allegedly Spurs get benched in favor of who is.

Barry and Finley hot in 2007 Playoffs. One can hope.

[MannyIsGod]

The Collective Bargaining Agreement says the Spurs cannot play two bigs, trade Finley or play Barry instead of Finley when GNob is out?

You say dogmatically that the Spurs cannot trade Finley for squat. Now that you know he is not vet min but 3 million per is he still untradeable?

The collective bargaining agreement governs the amount of salary you can give/take in a trade. Go and find a player making under 3.5 million a year you would trade Finley for.