Why is it that?

[stretch]

I always thought it was because there is an underlying racist theme.

Blacks represent the majority of the league's players and many are into the hip hop scene (ie baggy clothes, jewelry)

Steve Francis said that the other day. I have to agree too. Race is an issue in the NBA. we see people in baseball who throw chairs at people for no reason at all, and its only an issue for a couple days, then everyone forgets about it. but when you see a scuffle in the NBA, suddenly everyone labels all those players as thugs and like that. people have really lost the meaning of the term "thug", and use it way too much for people that dont deserve such a le.

[Bob Lanier]

No, they should probably emulate Ben Wallace and instigate a brawl in Detroit. Or perhaps they could emulate Rasheed, who isn't egotistical, brash, whiny at all.

They shouldn't "emulate" any of these people. It is not the job of a professional athlete to be an etiquette tutor to children.

You're trying to say Jordan didn't have an ego?

Why would you possibly think I was "trying to say" that? Of course he had an ego. He had an enormous one. He was a megalomaniacal asshole in just about every respect who had his flaws airbrushed by a fawning media, to an even greater extent than Wade has.

I'm tired of talking to you because you're still sore about D-Wade's performance last year

Believe it or not, I'm not "sore" about anything. It was the last straw, but not particularly worse than any of the others. I don't hold a grudge against David Stern for the way he runs his league, and I certainly don't hold one against Dwyane Wade for benefiting from it. I simply don't watch.

You're sitting on your fat-ass

My ass is hardly fat. You see, the difference is that we know that sportscasters and sportswriters are very frequently overweight to morbidly obese. You're only making assumptions about me.

Dwayne Wade is a very clean-cut individual

How he conducts himself off the court is no-one's business but his own. How he or Arenas relates to "his community" has and should have no bearing on how I view him as a professional athlete.

and isn't any more whiney than Avery Johnson, for example... or Dirk.

Possibly not.

That's what the league wants to see - not Ben Wallace complaining

No doubt they want to see that! They believe that they can make more money by forcing athletes to live in a fishbowl, 24-hour-a-day PR spokesmen for their teams and their league. That may be true, but it is unfortunate. I want to see less of this saccharine bull , fewer cameras, fewer interviews, fewer sports media. Wade could be an amateur doctor to the poor and humanitarian diplomat and, so long as his extracurricular activities didn't effect his performance as a basketball player, it is his private affair. Wallace's issues with Chicago management were an internal disciplinary matter and his complaints never should have been printed or aired. It may be in the league's financial interests to exploit an irresponsible, sensationalist media, but that doesn't make their actions any less irresponsible or sensationalist.

I can only imagine how the modern media would have treated Wilt Chamberlain's sex life - as puritanical as Americans are, I'm sure they would have had a field day - or Wes Unseld's "dirty" play.

You obviously didn't read all the posts on here that were playing the race card, so I'll give you a chance to read that.

Thanks!

I know Chris Andersen

That's nice.

his high school coach who says that he really wishes Chris would get his head on straight

Good for him.

his legargy, laziness, inability to follow rules (like league drug rules) make him a "bad seed"

Lots of lazy players in the NBA. His personal use of recreational drugs is none of the league's concern.

their actions off-the-court play a very large role in their tenure in the league.

You're right about that. There are aspects of that which are new and some which aren't so new, but in all aspects it's a foolish way to do business.

[Kori Ellis]

I said this in antoher thread in the Spurs forum the other day.

The NBA is 75-80% black. MLB is only 8-9% black.

And unfortunately, many (white) people who watch sports or are corporate sponsors etc., view everything about young, urban black males as thuggish and gangsta. That's why when there's a baseball brawl of a bunch of white guys, no one cares and there's no 15 game suspensions. When there's a basketball brawl of a couple black players, then they "need" to give out huge penalties to stop this thuggish behavior.

I don't believe in calling much a "race issue", but this is one.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

There is a race issue in the NBA, the dress code underlined that pretty clearly. But I don't think anyone in this drama is being called a thug undeservedly. In the last few years who has been handed that le without earning it?

Artest had a rap sheet as long as his arm well before he went into the stands in Detroit. Most Spurs fans weren't too shocked when Jax followed him in there, and no one should have been surprised by the crap he pulled at the strip club this summer.

In this latest fiasco, no one is a choir boy.
Melo-cheap shot attempt at Manu, busted with weed last year, "Stop Snitching"
Isiah- leader of the Bad Boys, considered an asshole throughout the league, accused of ordering hits on players before this incident
Nate-showboat, hothead, known to be involved in a few locker room altercations
Collins- did the exact same thing in the previous game vs. Pacers and apparently recently said if given the chance he'd do it all over again.

The reason this has such legs to run is because practically none of the guys in are first time offenders. As for the ones that are, have there been any big media blitzes against JR Smith and Jared Jeffries? That's a serious question, BTW. I haven't exactly had my ear to the ground on this one. It's easy to paint the players as thugs when they are just that.

[v2freak]

The thing is, you could dissect this topic in any number of ways. Posters are discussing the social aspects, but no one has discussed the science or economics of this

[MosesGuthrie]

And unfortunately, many (white) people who watch sports or are corporate sponsors etc., view everything about young, urban black males as thuggish and gangsta. That's why when there's a baseball brawl of a bunch of white guys, no one cares and there's no 15 game suspensions. When there's a basketball brawl of a couple black players, then they "need" to give out huge penalties to stop this thuggish behavior

Good point. I think there are some players in all sports that act thuggish and gangsta but its certainly not the majority. A lot of these "thugs" do great things in their communities and that usually gets ignored.

Personally I detest fighting in any sport and think that the penalties should be worse. Baseball is a joke. They talk about cleaning up their sport but guys in brawls usually get 5-7 game suspensions which almost always get reduced to 3 or 4.

[stretch]

I said this in antoher thread in the Spurs forum the other day.

The NBA is 75-80% black. MLB is only 8-9% black.

And unfortunately, many (white) people who watch sports or are corporate sponsors etc., view everything about young, urban black males as thuggish and gangsta. That's why when there's a baseball brawl of a bunch of white guys, no one cares and there's no 15 game suspensions. When there's a basketball brawl of a couple black players, then they "need" to give out huge penalties to stop this thuggish behavior.

I don't believe in calling much a "race issue", but this is one.

i agree 100% Kori. good post. im not 1 bit black, but its obvious that racism still exists to an extent these day.

[LakeShow]

You can't compare fights in hocket to fights in basketball. Fighting in hockey is part of its culture and history. With the way the game is, big hits along the boards or slashing hockey sticks at another player will lead to ill feelings that will eventually result in bad blood and fighting. It's part of the sport. Fighting in basketball is not nearly as much part of the history and culture of basketball as it is in hockey.

As for baseball, fights are generally part of having being hit by a pitch. Getting hit by a 95 mph fast ball that could maim you or do worse is something you can understand fighting over. Getting fouled hard in basketball is not at the same level as getting darted in with a baseball.

And, then you look at each respective sport. Basketball has approximately 400 players in the NBA. In football it's over 1500 players in the NFL. In baseball, it's over 750 players. In hockey, it's over 600. Basketball has the fewest players. And, unlike the other three major sports, they don't wear hats, masks, or helmets. NBA players are more recognizable. You know what tattooes they have. You know their hairstyle. The media can follow their personal lives more closely because their faces are generally more recognizable. Not so in football or hockey. And, baseball, you have to be Derek Jeter or Barry Bonds for most people to know who you are.

The NBA and its players are more recognizable. And, in today's MTV/hip hop generation, people are interested in Carmelo's relationship with Lala and Kobe Bryant's rape case and Shaq's beef with Kobe and Ron Artest's album release.

The biggest stars in the other sports don't come close to the NBA's biggest star in LeBron James. How many people can identify LeBron James? And, how many people could identify Derek Jeter? And, how many people can identify Peyton Manning? And, how many people can identify Sidney Crosby?

Derek Jeter and Peyton Manning get a lot of pub. But, after those two, who in their respective sports could people know on looks alone in the NFL and MLB. There would be plenty of people who don't even know what LaDanian Tomlinson and Johan Santana look like. And, hockey. Well, come on. Could you tell me what Rick Nash looks like? Could you point out Martin Brodeur out in a crowd?

It's about recognizability and familiarity. While the NFL is still king, all of those guys wear helmets.

People know who LeBron is, who Carmelo and Dwyane Wade are, who Kobe is, Iverson, Shaq, KG, Tim Duncan. They are easily recognizable. The media knows that. They know people identify them and identify with them.

Is there some level of racism? Maybe. I can see some. But, it's also the nature of sports media. Michael Jordan changed the culture of sports advertising. Kobe was on his way to carrying that torch until his feud with Shaq and the sexual assault case. But, look at LeBron now. 75% of the world, nevermind America, knows who LeBron is. You can't say that about other athletes in other sports, not even Peyton Manning.


There are plenty of reasons why basketball players are labelled "thugs" when they cause trouble or get into fights. Racial issues may play a factor, but they're not the only reason.

I think you make an excellent point in bold.

[LakeShow]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...ge=hill/061218

Just an ol' Jock fight
By Jemele Hill
Page 2


Don't blame The Game.

It ain't Master P's fault.

Throwbacks weren't the cause of this throw down.

Two things you could count on happening in the aftermath of the Knicks-Nuggets fight: (1) Overusage of the word "thug," which belongs right next to "race card" in the Phrases That Should Be Eliminated Hall of Fame; (2) Somehow this will all be blamed on hip-hop culture -- the convenient scapegoat for everything wrong with the NBA. Forget blaming this on a petty feud between George Karl and Isiah Thomas. Let's just point the finger at Ludacris.

Seriously folks, can we not make the same mistake with "Melee at Madison Square" that we did after the "Malice at the Palace"? Can we not smash the overreact button and realize Saturday's multiplayer brawl was just a regular ol' jock fight?




Kurt Snibbe
The punishments given by NBA commissioner David Stern on Monday were frighteningly predictable. To be fair, Stern was in a tough spot. Were it not for the Palace fiasco, this latest ordeal would merely have been a rehash of previous NBA feuds that, quite honestly, helped make the 1980s a fantastic NBA era to watch.

Newsflash: compe ive athletes fight sometimes. They also are egomaniacs. And they get especially pissed when they feel their opponent is running up the score. But hey, if you belonged to an organization that is as mismanaged and woeful as the Knicks, fighting in an otherwise meaningless NBA game would be a worthwhile sacrifice if it meant shortening the number of times you had to wear that uniform.

Let's be smart. Let's blame this one on false bravado, machismo and stupidity. Let's not turn this into some tired diatribe on how the NBA was destined for doom the minute Allen Iverson grew cornrows. Let's not have pointless discussions about how today's young athletes are wannabe gangsters. Asked by Salt Lake Tribune columnist Gordon Monson last week if any of his players ever got in his face, Utah coach Jerry Sloan said, "No, not up in my face. If they did, somebody would be going south. I've got too much craziness in me." And to my knowledge, no one ever has called Sloan the dreaded t-word (thug).

It is what it is. A NASCAR guy can drop-kick another driver through his car window and it is just considered part of the sport. Hockey players drop their sticks and pound on one another on a regular basis and no one dares blame it on anything other than just a boiling, compe ive spirit. When NASCAR drivers blast one another with their cars out of anger it isn't symptomatic of what's wrong with white people. So please don't turn a silly NBA fight into a town hall meeting about what's wrong with African Americans -- even though, unfortunately, something like this somehow winds up reflecting poorly on the entire black community.

Of course, the fight was wrong. No one is denying that. It should never have gone as far as it did. Clearly, Carmelo Anthony must never have heard of Kermit Washington, whose life was irrevocably altered because he sucker-punched Rudy Tomjanovich. Melo could have seriously injured Mardy Collins. At worst, criminal charges should be strongly considered, and at best, Melo should be sentenced to a lifetime of snickers because Mr. Don't Snitch ran during the fight from Nate Robinson, who is a mighty 5-foot-7. Melo is now the recipient of the Disgraceful Fighting Award, an honor that in years past has belonged to Doug Christie (your wife cannot throw a meaner punch than you do), Kobe Bryant (Chris Childs gave Kobe a combination that would make Lennox Lewis jealous) and Shaq (how is a 7-footer going to allow himself to get dropped by Charles Barkley, who is 6-foot-5 on a good day?).

And by the way, a memo to pundits, experts and columnists: What happened at Madison Square Garden was a fight. Now that incident that occurred at a basketball game in Serbia a couple of weeks ago -- that was a riot.

Anyway, Stern's tactics suggests he fashions himself as Michael Corleone, but a dress code can't prevent a 10-player brawl any more than a birthing video can stop teenage sex.

Stern has gone out of his way to try to sever the league's connection to hip-hop -- except, of course, when it comes to peddling NBA apparel that costs as much as a car payment -- but trying to use this fight as an example of widespread, unchecked "thuggery" is ridiculous and irresponsible. To borrow a quote from "The Wire"'s Omar, sometimes, it's all in the game.

Jemele Hill, a Page 2 columnist and writer for ESPN the Magazine, can be reached at [email protected].