Blind Mavs fans will still disrespect the Suns

[Shank]

I don't get you, dude. You're alway on here, clamoring for people to respect the Suns. And then you take stats and skew them in your favor when we all know the only thing that matters is wins and losses. The Colts had the worst run defense in the NFL and somehow held Larry Johnson to a handful of yards on Saturday. In the end, the numbers don't mean a thing.

Wins. And losses. There's no in-between.

[mabber]

'Suns' and 'defense' don't belong in the same sentence. The Suns idea of defense is letting the other team get into a trackmeet with them and blindly jack up shots to try to keep up. The 0-5 against the top teams in the West is quite damning. They're winless against them because these other teams can force the Suns to change their style and have the weapons to take Phoenix out of their game.

The only thing the West has to fear about the Suns when it comes playoff time is if they'll be able to outscore Phoenix. There's no concern about if Phoenix will be able to shut them down.

I believe the point that is trying to be made is that the Suns are playing better D late in games when they need a stop. Obviously, their system is predicated on trying to play up-tempo and making the game more wide open but Ron Mexico is saying that they're better in key situations this season (I think that's the jist of what he's trying to say). Other than the games with Dallas and a couple of others I haven't seen the Suns play enough to comment on their defense.

I have no doubt that the Suns can play good defense when they put their mind to it, but I'm still of the opinion that you need to put forth the effort to do that from the start of games to the end of games during the regular season if you're going to win a le. I don't think the Suns can just try to step up on D once the playoffs start. We will see.

[Findog]

How original.

Any more cliches?

.

Who cares if it's "cliched" or not "original" analysis? It's true and you can't refute it. Nash breaks down every May. I watched it happen four straight years in Dallas and the last two in Phoenix. If I need a guard to rack up 20 points and 11 assists in February against Atlanta, give me Nash. If I want to win a le, give me a guy who can play both ways and not break down in the playoffs.

Nevermind...if you think that Dallas ever had an inside presence like Amare Stoudemire, then your posts aren't even worth reading.

Where did I say Dallas had an inside presence comparable to Amare Stoudamire. Don't you mean to say that my posts are beyond your reading comprehension skills?

[Findog]

Amare is more than just one more guy in the rotation. That is as dumb as saying Wade is just part of the Heat's rotation.

I didn't say Amare was just one guy in the rotation. My point was that Phoenix lost in 6 games to Dallas with basically a 6-man rotation without Bell and Stoudamire. Simply being able to field a regular 8-man rotation will help them in their quest for a le more than anything else.

[JamStone]

How does a team commit 25 turnovers and still score 100 points???

What kind of defense causes 25 turnovers and still allows 100 points???

[Xylus]

How does a team commit 25 turnovers and still score 100 points???

What kind of defense causes 25 turnovers and still allows 100 points???

Is this sarcastic, or do you really not know? Ron said it in his very first post, for Christ's sake.

Golden State took 85 shots, which is a result of the fast pace played by both teams. The faster you play, the more shots you get in a game. So even if the Warriors had shot only 40% from the field, they still probably would have hit 100, or at least 98.

I don't understand why people don't get this: It doesn't matter how many points Suns' opponents score...what matters is the combination of FG%, offensive rebounds allowed, turnovers forced, and point differential--That's defense, not points allowed. The Suns could win 200-130, and you'd still say they didn't play defense.

The Warriors shot 43.5% and committed 25 turnovers...both of these are the products of good defense. A team doesn't normally commit 25 turnovers unless the opposing team is playing good defense.

I realize I'm using only one game as an example. But I could pick out just about any game over the last month and a half as a good example.

[mabber]

Is this sarcastic, or do you really not know? Ron said it in his very first post, for Christ's sake.

Golden State took 85 shots, which is a result of the fast pace played by both teams. The faster you play, the more shots you get in a game. So even if the Warriors had shot only 40% from the field, they still probably would have hit 100, or at least 98.

I don't understand why people don't get this: It doesn't matter how many points Suns' opponents score...what matters is the combination of FG%, offensive rebounds allowed, turnovers forced, and point differential--That's defense, not points allowed. The Suns could win 200-130, and you'd still say they didn't play defense.

The Warriors shot 43.5% and committed 25 turnovers...both of these are the products of good defense. A team doesn't normally commit 25 turnovers unless the opposing team is playing good defense.

I realize I'm using only one game as an example. But I could pick out just about any game over the last month and a half as a good example.

Not only does D'Antoni have his players sold on that style of play, he's apparently got the fans sold on it as well. , there's a first time for everything but until a team that plays that way wins the le I won't think it's the best way to go about trying to win it. It's damn fun to watch though from a fan's perspective.

[BradLohaus]

Some Suns defensive rankings:

Opponents FG%: 10th (tied with SA, yikes)
Point differential: 2nd (SA 1st)
Turnovers forced per game: 11th (Spurs 22nd)
Turnover differential per game: 10th, Spurs 13th (this stat explains why NY can rebound so well and still be so bad, along with having Jamal Crawford and Starbury jacking shots left and right. They are dead last here by a full TO per game, which is alot.)
Off Reb%: 30th (last, Spurs are 28th)
Def Reb%: 18th (Spurs are 2nd, Rockets 1st)
Overall Reb%: 24th (Spurs are 7th)

The Suns do rank pretty well in the stats Xylus mentioned. Even the 18th in defensive rebounding % was better than I thought they'd be. The bottom 4 in offensive reb. % looks like this:
27) Miami: .247
28) SA: .245
29) Tor: .237
30) Phx: .209

The dropoff between the Suns and the rest of the league is pretty big. Every team has at least one weakness, and it's pretty obvious what the Suns' is. It's going to take very hot shooting to overcome 18th in def. reb and last in off. reb when you only play the elite teams on the post season. Of course, the Spurs have statistical weaknesses ourselves. I don't know how we're 2nd in defensive rebounding and 3rd to last in offensive rebounding. The Spurs must improve from 10th in Opp FG%, that's our stat! We could force some more turnovers as well.

[BradLohaus]

I agree with Brad that rebounding is our team's greatest weakness. I've been saying for awhile that the Suns need to pick up a strong rebounder soon. I'd love to have David Lee, but I'm afraid that acquiring him is nothing more than a pipe dream.

I couldn't agree more. David Lee would be a fantastic addition to a contender. The guy just flat out gets rebounds on both ends. Isaiah doesn't start him now that Frye is healthy, but he does play more minutes than Frye. I don't even think Isaiah is dumb enough to part with him on the cheap, but he might be destined to leave NY anyway. He's too good not to start somewhere soon, and the Knicks will probably keep the Curry, Frye, Jeffries frontline together (which is wrong. I'd let Frye go to keep Lee in a heartbeat). If an elite Western Conference team could land him it would be huge.

[Amare_32]

funny how yall constantly talk about the Mavs, considering the Suns havent gotten any farther than the Mavs recently. 1 year, the Suns beat the Mavs, then got owned by the Spurs. then last year, the Mavs beat the Suns, and got to the finals, but unfortunately lost. and now this year, the Mavs are clearly the better team so far. you guys are total ing morons. wait until the playoffs to talk .

I am simply responding to your post about the Suns being 0-5 vs Mavs,Spurs,Jazz. Last year the Heat were horrible vs other elite teams. They went on to beat the Nets,Pistons and Mavs in the playoffs. Teams that had thier number in the regular season. Don't forget the Suns still play the Mavs 2 more times plus the Jazz and Spurs. My point is don't put much into what teams the Suns beat or don't beat in the regular season. The only thing that matters is how many wins they collect.
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MEDICAL MARIJUANA

[mabber]

[QUOTE=Amare_32]I am simply responding to your post about the Suns being 0-5 vs Mavs,Spurs,Jazz. Last year the Heat were horrible vs other elite teams. They went on to beat the Nets,Pistons and Mavs in the playoffs. Teams that had thier number in the regular season. Don't forget the Suns still play the Mavs 2 more times plus the Jazz and Spurs. My point is don't put much into what teams the Suns beat or don't beat in the regular season. The only thing that matters is how many wins they collect.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this and actually think the Suns have a great chance to get the best record this season. My issue is that their style of play is built for the regular season and not the playoffs. I wouldn't care if the Suns won most of their regular season games vs. the other elite teams cuz it won't translate to the playoffs unless they learn to play better halfcourt defense and rebound better. That's just my opinion though. I know you've heard this a hundred times but Mav fans have experienced it and realize that your style of play doesn't usually work against the top teams in the playoffs. Avery Johnson understands this and has drastically changed the way the Mavs play now. Hopefully, they're finally ready to win a le this season but we'll see.

On a side note, I think it would be awesome if the Suns won the le by playing the way they do (if the Mavs don't win). It would show that it can be done that way and more teams would try that style. It would make for a more entertaining league...but I just don't see it happening.

[RonMexico]

The Suns do rank pretty well in the stats Xylus mentioned. Even the 18th in defensive rebounding % was better than I thought they'd be. The bottom 4 in offensive reb. % looks like this:
27) Miami: .247
28) SA: .245
29) Tor: .237
30) Phx: .209

The dropoff between the Suns and the rest of the league is pretty big. Every team has at least one weakness, and it's pretty obvious what the Suns' is. It's going to take very hot shooting to overcome 18th in def. reb and last in off. reb when you only play the elite teams on the post season. Of course, the Spurs have statistical weaknesses ourselves. I don't know how we're 2nd in defensive rebounding and 3rd to last in offensive rebounding. The Spurs must improve from 10th in Opp FG%, that's our stat! We could force some more turnovers as well.

Brad, one of my theories is that both the Suns and Spurs shoot a high percentage - Spurs at about 48% and Suns flirting with 50% almost all season. Also, the Suns and Spurs are both tops in 3FG%, which means they don't get a lot of those long offensive rebounds induced by 3pt misses.

The reason the Suns drop off even more is that the guards and even small forwards play way out on the perimeter, leaving only about 2 Suns players crashing the offensive boards. Against teams that don't fast break a lot, the Suns have poor offensive rebounding numbers, but against the teams that do fast break a lot (aka release their guards and forwards), the Suns can pick up a fair amount of offensive boards. I'll admit that I was really surprised by the rebounding numbers tonight against the Sonics: despite giving up 21 rebounds to Nick Collison (who had the best game I've ever seen him play, including college), the Suns only lost the rebounding battle 45-42 overall and I thought they had been dominated on the glass by the looks of the game.

Either way, I'm glad you looked up the defensive stats and finally found some numbers to back up what Xylus and I have been saying for a few weeks now. I still think the Suns can win in the playoffs losing the rebounding battle by 3 per game. It's when they don't fight for boards inside at all and lose by 10+ that they get into trouble.

[BradLohaus]

Either way, I'm glad you looked up the defensive stats and finally found some numbers to back up what Xylus and I have been saying for a few weeks now. I still think the Suns can win in the playoffs losing the rebounding battle by 3 per game. It's when they don't fight for boards inside at all and lose by 10+ that they get into trouble.

I'm starting to open up to the possibility of a team winning the le despite losing the rebounding battle. Even if it's never happened in NBA history, I suppose it has to happen at some point, especially if this league wide move to smaller ball is actually a generational shift in style and not just a fad. I think the influx of foreign players is helping to cement the shift. I have to admit that if someone does win it all with a -RebDiff it will be someone with the Suns offensive stats: #1 in scoring by 3 ppg, #1 in fg% at almost 50%, 40% on 3s and 80% at the line. Will Nash have enough in the tank for the stretch run? That might be just as important as these rebounding numbers. He'll be 33 in a month.

[mabber]

I'm starting to open up to the possibility of a team winning the le despite losing the rebounding battle. Even if it's never happened in NBA history, I suppose it has to happen at some point, especially if this league wide move to smaller ball is actually a generational shift in style and not just a fad. I think the influx of foreign players is helping to cement the shift. I have to admit that if someone does win it all with a -RebDiff it will be someone with the Suns offensive stats: #1 in scoring by 3 ppg, #1 in fg% at almost 50%, 40% on 3s and 80% at the line. Will Nash have enough in the tank for the stretch run? That might be just as important as these rebounding numbers. He'll be 33 in a month.

There's a first time for everything so it could happen and the Suns would be the prime candidate. I think the Suns will have to be the #1 seed for it to happen this season. I think it would be tough for them to go through both the Spurs & Mavs and that's what they'd probably have to do with the #2 or #3 seed.

That's a good point about how the influx of foreign players is probably helping with the shift to small ball. I really hadn't thought of that before.

[fitzgerald]

Phoenix still allows over 100 points per game. Check San Antonio and Dallas. They don't. Check most of the teams in first place in their division. Phoenix is the only team that is in first while allowing so many points. Phoenix can try it just like all other past teams have tried. Good luck.

[mabber]

Phoenix still allows over 100 points per game. Check San Antonio and Dallas. They don't. Check most of the teams in first place in their division. Phoenix is the only team that is in first while allowing so many points. Phoenix can try it just like all other past teams have tried. Good luck.

Yeah, they've (Sun's fans) have heard all this before. They're just hoping that the overall change in style of play (more to small ball) will yield a nba champion soon. I don't think it's going to happen but I've been wrong more times than I'd care to admit about things

I don't see the Mavs being stopped this season unless injuries get them. I had always targeted this season for them to finally win a championship. I thought they over-achieved a bit last year. I expected the Spurs to come out of the west last season.

[BradLohaus]

That's a good point about how the influx of foreign players is probably helping with the shift to small ball. I really hadn't thought of that before.

Also the recent rule changes that limit physical play in an attempt to improve scoring.

[RonMexico]

Will Nash have enough in the tank for the stretch run? That might be just as important as these rebounding numbers. He'll be 33 in a month.

That's the key. Either Banks or Barbosa needs to step up and take over as a quality backup PG for around 10+ mins per game to give Nash some rest or the Suns have to pick-up someone who will before the deadline. They only need to do this in the regular season for the most part, so Nash won't have to expend to much energy in late March/April.

I have a feeling that the bench of James Jones and Jalen Rose will be key in any kind of stretch/playoff run, and Diaw/Rose can both run "point forward" if necessary for any periods of time. The maturation of Amare's game - i.e. hitting the 15 ft jumper consistently and developing a few more "go-to" halfcourt post-up moves and consistency from Marion in the playoffs also are key (if he had played better in the 2005 WCF, I don't think Suns would have lost in 5 games... Bowen held him to 7.8 PPG in that series). I believe that role players like Bell and Kurt Thomas will prove valuable in the playoffs, as well.

I'm only concerned about the rebounding when it goes to -10 or more for the Suns because that's when they lose/struggle in the playoffs. The better they rebound, the less of a chance they have to go 6/7 games in the first round, which will help everyone's conditioning.

With respect to Nash, though - this is the first summer in about 3-4 years in which he has not played some kind of compe ive sport (i.e. rec soccer leagues or for the Canadian National B-ball Team). Instead, he focused solely on conditioning and treatment of his back issues. He has only been out 2 games this year due to a sprained ankle, and that's reassuring since it isn't back spasms or a hamstring injury like in previous years. I still think that if anyone can run the offense while he is out so he can average no more than 32/33 MPG this year, then he should have it in him for 38+ per night in the playoffs.

[RonMexico]

Phoenix still allows over 100 points per game. Check San Antonio and Dallas. They don't. Check most of the teams in first place in their division. Phoenix is the only team that is in first while allowing so many points. Phoenix can try it just like all other past teams have tried. Good luck.

I'm still waiting for a Mavs fan to explain how the Mavs are a "great" defensive team, and the Suns are a "bad" defensive team considering these facts. Of course, stats don't matter on this board...

Dallas: OPP FG% 45.06
Phoenix: OPP FG% 45.07
San Antonio: OPP FG% 45.08

Dallas: OPP 3POINT% 33
Phoenix: OPP 3POINT% 32
San Antonio: OPP 3POINT% 34

Dallas forced turnovers: 14.1
Phoenix forced turnovers: 15.3
San Antonio forced turnovers: 14.1

The Suns may give up points, but they're second in point differential, and also have many more possessions per game, which allow for more shots and more scoring on both sides of the ball. If you adjust the defensive scoring averages based on # of possessions for all 3 teams, I'm pretty sure the three of them would be pretty close since they allow almost identical OPP FG%.

[mabber]

That's the key. Either Banks or Barbosa needs to step up and take over as a quality backup PG for around 10+ mins per game to give Nash some rest or the Suns have to pick-up someone who will before the deadline. They only need to do this in the regular season for the most part, so Nash won't have to expend to much energy in late March/April.

I have a feeling that the bench of James Jones and Jalen Rose will be key in any kind of stretch/playoff run, and Diaw/Rose can both run "point forward" if necessary for any periods of time. The maturation of Amare's game - i.e. hitting the 15 ft jumper consistently and developing a few more "go-to" halfcourt post-up moves and consistency from Marion in the playoffs also are key (if he had played better in the 2005 WCF, I don't think Suns would have lost in 5 games... Bowen held him to 7.8 PPG in that series). I believe that role players like Bell and Kurt Thomas will prove valuable in the playoffs, as well.

I'm only concerned about the rebounding when it goes to -10 or more for the Suns because that's when they lose/struggle in the playoffs. The better they rebound, the less of a chance they have to go 6/7 games in the first round, which will help everyone's conditioning.

With respect to Nash, though - this is the first summer in about 3-4 years in which he has not played some kind of compe ive sport (i.e. rec soccer leagues or for the Canadian National B-ball Team). Instead, he focused solely on conditioning and treatment of his back issues. He has only been out 2 games this year due to a sprained ankle, and that's reassuring since it isn't back spasms or a hamstring injury like in previous years. I still think that if anyone can run the offense while he is out so he can average no more than 32/33 MPG this year, then he should have it in him for 38+ per night in the playoffs.

I'm blown away that he's shooting over 50% on 3 pointers.

[mabber]

I'm still waiting for a Mavs fan to explain how the Mavs are a "great" defensive team, and the Suns are a "bad" defensive team considering these facts. Of course, stats don't matter on this board...

Dallas: OPP FG% 45.06
Phoenix: OPP FG% 45.07
San Antonio: OPP FG% 45.08

Dallas: OPP 3POINT% 33
Phoenix: OPP 3POINT% 32
San Antonio: OPP 3POINT% 34

Dallas forced turnovers: 14.1
Phoenix forced turnovers: 15.3
San Antonio forced turnovers: 14.1

The Suns may give up points, but they're second in point differential, and also have many more possessions per game, which allow for more shots and more scoring on both sides of the ball. If you adjust the defensive scoring averages based on # of possessions for all 3 teams, I'm pretty sure the three of them would be pretty close since they allow almost identical OPP FG%.

I never said the Mavs were a "great" defensive team but I do think they are superior to the Suns and equal to the Spurs and I don't need stats to see that. The Mavs are an average at best 1st half defensive team and a really good 2nd half defensive team. They really turn up the defensive pressure as the game progresses. It's very common for them to give up around 50pts in the first half and only 35-40 pts in the 2nd half (although the last night's game was not that way).

[BradLohaus]

I think we may have seen the end of the era of dominant defensive teams. I hate to see it as a Spurs fan, but with the roster changes SA and Detroit have gone through lately, some age issues, and the general smaller, faster, less physical changes the NBA is going through, there are alot of reasons to think a new era is here in the NBA.

I thought the Suns were a bad defensive team until I looked at the numbers. I'd put them at average now (opp. FG% is the significant defensive stat. The Spurs won 3 les because of this stat, and now Phx is equal to the Mavs and Spurs). The Suns are bad at rebounding, not defense. And they're not as bad at def. rebounding as they are at off. rebounding.

Maybe this depends on what people consider "being good at defense" is. I'd say the best defensive team is the team that is toughest to score on. Opp. ppg. is not all that important, I think (Ron I think you've shown that). It comes down to opp. FG% and DefReb%. The Suns are 10th and 18th or so in those 2 categories. I think the stats say that Phx is an average defensive team, but a bad rebounding one.

[TheMulvany]

First of all, the Mavs are 2-0 vs the Suns this year, so Suns fans have no room to question how good the Mavs are. Win a game then talk. You've lost 4 straight against the Mavs going back to last year's playoffs, by the way.

Secondly, the Suns got really fat off the east. Eventually you'll have to play some good teams in the West (not Portland and Seattle every game, either). And when you do, you'll continue on that 0-5 record you've got against the best in the West. Look at that record vs the East and vs the West. It sucks that you only get to play those EC teams twice each.

And you're actually trying to claim the Suns are a better defensive team than the Mavs? Are you kidding me? The Suns are one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA. They don't force turnovers or block shots, either. They also don't get to the freethrow line. This all adds up to one simple fact: Their opponents get a LOT more shots per game. The Suns have to shoot 50% if they want any shot at winning the game. They can't do that 4 times vs the Mavs or Spurs in the playoffs, and that's why they will never get past them.

The Suns cannot win a game when they shoot poorly against a good team. That's all there is to it. Even when they do shoot well there's no guarantee they'll win.

One of the reasons the Suns defensive numbers have gone up is because they've played the East for the last month. The East sucks. Most of the top offensive teams are in the West.

It's not all about defensive FG%. The Spus aren't doing well in that area and they're a MUCH better defensive team than the Suns are. The Spus and Mavs both get stops when they have to, and they rebound the ball. The Suns do neither.

The only way the Suns can get to the finals is if they somehow avoid the Spurs and Mavs in the playoffs, which is impossible. The Jazz shoot the ball for such a high percentage and are such a good rebounding team that I don't think the Suns would have a prayer against them, either.

To sum it up: The Suns are dead in the playoffs.

[Amare_32]

First of all, the Mavs are 2-0 vs the Suns this year, so Suns fans have no room to question how good the Mavs are. Win a game then talk. You've lost 4 straight against the Mavs going back to last year's playoffs, by the way.

Secondly, the Suns got really fat off the east. Eventually you'll have to play some good teams in the West (not Portland and Seattle every game, either). And when you do, you'll continue on that 0-5 record you've got against the best in the West. Look at that record vs the East and vs the West. It sucks that you only get to play those EC teams twice each.

And you're actually trying to claim the Suns are a better defensive team than the Mavs? Are you kidding me? The Suns are one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA. They don't force turnovers or block shots, either. They also don't get to the freethrow line. This all adds up to one simple fact: Their opponents get a LOT more shots per game. The Suns have to shoot 50% if they want any shot at winning the game. They can't do that 4 times vs the Mavs or Spurs in the playoffs, and that's why they will never get past them.

The Suns cannot win a game when they shoot poorly against a good team. That's all there is to it. Even when they do shoot well there's no guarantee they'll win.

One of the reasons the Suns defensive numbers have gone up is because they've played the East for the last month. The East sucks. Most of the top offensive teams are in the West.

It's not all about defensive FG%. The Spus aren't doing well in that area and they're a MUCH better defensive team than the Suns are. The Spus and Mavs both get stops when they have to, and they rebound the ball. The Suns do neither.

The only way the Suns can get to the finals is if they somehow avoid the Spurs and Mavs in the playoffs, which is impossible. The Jazz shoot the ball for such a high percentage and are such a good rebounding team that I don't think the Suns would have a prayer against them, either.

To sum it up: The Suns are dead in the playoffs.

Let the season run its course the Mavs play the Suns 2 more times. By the way how did it feel to see the Heat hold up the trophy in Dallas?
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How to roll blunts

[dirk4mvp]

Let the season run its course the Mavs play the Suns 2 more times. By the way how did it feel to see the Heat hold up the trophy in Dallas?

Best argument Sun fan has to offer?