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they far from suck but they haven't been themselves in the personel department over the past few years.
For what its worth--
The highly recognized and esteemed Spurs FO has taken a backseat lately.
they far from suck but they haven't been themselves in the personel department over the past few years.
I think that the jury is still out on this one. I saw a few months ago that the Spurs salery situation will clear up dramaticaly in a year or two (I think that I saw only the big three under contract past that)
If I am mistaken then ignore this post, but if I'm right, then the moves could pay off big time in a few years as the Spur make another run with all that cap room to spend on free agents. (This assumes that the management will sign the right players at the right time)
There were stories that I remember during Howard's rookie year or next year that spoke of how Duncan liked him. The Pop angle is a recent addition to the mythos.
An example, from a Buck Harvey column in May 2006 (but the Duncan angle had existed for a couple of years):
So until recently the official story from the Spurs mouthpieces in the Express News had always been just about how much Duncan liked him.
...
Howard seemingly did everything well. Pro scouts liked the 6-foot-7 package, though most saw Howard falling toward the bottom of the LeBron-Carmelo-Wade first round. Several mock drafts, coincidentally, predicted the Spurs would take him.
"Howard is a versatile scorer at small forward," a West Coast newspaper wrote then, "who could complement defensive specialist Bruce Bowen."
The Spurs understood as much. But the two prospects who intrigued them more were Boris Diaw, Tony Parker's buddy who stars now for Phoenix, and Ndudi Ebi, a high-school project out of Houston who has since failed.
Howard? The Spurs were less fixated on him than they were creating cap room to sign Jason Kidd. Howard still earns less than a million dollars, making him the kind of bargain that Parker and Manu Ginobili once were. But unsure what the salary cap would be that summer, the Spurs wanted to free every dollar for Kidd.
In hindsight, the Kidd plan was as erroneous as the Spurs' analysis of Howard. They saw Howard as a slasher, and they already had one in Ginobili. Didn't they really need shooters to spread the floor for Duncan?
Even after coming up with a find with the 28th selection just two years before (Parker), they still didn't like the odds with another No.28. When Diaw and Ebi went off the board, the Spurs traded that first-round choice to the Suns for one in the future.
Gregg Popovich signed off on it with only one reservation. He knew Duncan liked Howard.
Then Dallas, drafting next, took Howard, and Popovich quickly second-guessed everything. Having just edged the Mavericks in the Western Conference finals, had the Spurs helped their rivals?
...
http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/c....1258ad56.html
I just don't understand how you go from the practice of getting veterans who are so hungry for a championship to players like Elson, Bonner, Vaughn, Butler, Barry, Finley, Beno, etc.... These guys are/were proven losers on previous teams.
Some of them couldn't get minutes on lottery teams.... WTF?
There is a fine line between "hungry" for a championship and "wanting" a championship. The Spurs have been signing the later and not the former
I should add:
After the Mavs moved on and were in the Finals, then Harvey had a story that changed: it wasn't just Duncan's reservations that caused Pop pause . . . now Pop wanted him!
the Spurs also passed on a player who both Popovich and Duncan liked.
Howard.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/b...2d75f4fa2.html
For Finley it was a situation of "I put in my time, Now I want a ring" when it should be "I put in my time, Now I'm ready to work toward a ring"
Those players are still waiting around for Duncan to bring their ring to them. It is the Coaches/GMs job to find these players and remove them from the team as quickly as possable. If they are kept for too long, their at ude of "Bring the ring to me" instead of "I will work toward the ring" start to seep into the rest of the team.
Of course personnel decision have hurt this franchise in the last few years. But name a franchise that doesn't apply to. Pheonix has made bad personnel & draft decisions, so has Dallas. No franchise makes perfect personnel decisions. While I would have made some different decisions, I can't say that they would have 100% certain worked out better - eg. rather than sign Oberto, I would have signed Steven Hunter for his mobility and shot blocking and being able to play big 1/2 of each game might have won us the series last year, while Oberto sat on the bench. On the other hand, Hunter might have got himself benched even harder than Rasho did against Dallas...
All of the bad decisions can be rectified by bringing in Gilbert Arenas.......
"My swagger is so phenomenal"
I think the moral of the story is, given a Once-In-A-Lifetime Franchise Player, you don't need to get all the other personnel decisions right to be successful, just a few.
The question is given the Franchise Player, how often do you need to hit upon a sucessful infusion of young talent? Once a year? Once every 2-3 years?
Here are the year-by-year "significant" acquisitions by the Spurs in the Tim Duncan era. *=player 25 or younger, ()= did not win (or has not yet won) a ring with the Spurs.
98 Tim Duncan*, Malik Rose*, Jaren Jackson
99 Antonio Daniels*, Mario Elie, Steve Kerr, Jerome Kersey
00 (Samaki Walker*), (Terry Porter),
01 (Derek Anderson*), Danny Ferry
02 Tony Parker*, Stephen Jackson*, Bruce Bowen, Steve Smith
03 Emmanuel Ginobili*, Speedy Claxton*, Devin Brown*, Kevin Willis, Steve Kerr
04 (Hidayet Turkoglu*), Radoslav Nesterovic, Robert Horry "Missed out on": Barbosa*, Howard*
05 Beno Udrih*, Nazr Mohammad, Brent Barry "Missed out on": Nocioni*
06 (Michael Finley), (Nick Van Exel), (Fabricio Oberto)
07 (Jackie Butler*), (Francisco Elson), (Matt Bonner)
You can see that from 1998 until 2004, the Spurs were pretty much on a roll. Every year they picked up at least one under-25 player of reasonable quality who at least played significant minutes. And of course were able to supplement them with a solid veteran, but I would argue that the bulk of the heavy lifting was done by the young guys and not the veteran FA pickups.
However, given the so-far negative trend in Beno and the question marks about Butler (and the fact that Hedo didn't pan out), the Spurs have no significant young talent additions since Manu. And it's interesting to note that eveyone perceptions on the players they "missed out on" coincides exactly with that time.
The jury's still out on Scola, Mahinmi, and Javtokas but it's extremely doubtful any of them will turn out to be near the quality of Barbosa, Howard, and Nocioni.
So did the Spurs just have a lucky streak that was bound to come to an end, have they just gotten worse in their ability to draft young talent, or has the compe ion just caught up with them?
I think everyone has caught up to them in drafting.
How does not drafting Howard and then trading Barbosa mean everyone else has caught up?
There's no question the decision that has hurt this team the most is not drafting Josh Howard in 2003. I remember salivating in front of the T.V because there's no way I ever imagined he'd fall the the Spurs. Of course I ended up screaming at the T.V when they passed over him and traded out of the round. I admit, I didn't even expect him to be as good as he's been.
However reading that old Buck Harvy column, several things stick out that make me absolutely want to puke:
Howard? The Spurs were less fixated on him than they were creating cap room to sign Jason Kidd. Howard still earns less than a million dollars, making him the kind of bargain that Parker and Manu Ginobili once were. But unsure what the salary cap would be that summer, the Spurs wanted to free every dollar for Kidd.
I said it at the time it was discussed extensively in this forum and I'll say it again. The Jason Kidd thing was the 2nd dumbest decision this FO ever made (passing on Howard being the dumbest). It was dumb for the following reasons.
(1)Kidd's contract alone (rivaling Duncan's - 90 mil) would have been an albatross over this franchise's salary structure that would have been 10 times worse than Rasho and Malik's respective contracts.
(2) New Jersey (and any other competent team) was not going to simply let Kidd walk without some measure of compensation - even though he was an unrestricted FA. Jersey most assuredly would have worked out a sign and trade. The potential price to pay to obtain Kidd would have meant parting with either Manu or Tony - not smart.
(3) Fresh off their 2nd championship, Parker was clearly on a rapid development track - as we have seen. Kidd, on the other hand, while still a superstar PG, had peaked. Also, Kidd still isn't a good outside shooter.
In hindsight, the Kidd plan was as erroneous as the Spurs' analysis of Howard. They saw Howard as a slasher, and they already had one in Ginobili. Didn't they really need shooters to spread the floor for Duncan?
Duh! You mean the league will only allow 1 slasher per team? Get real! For the past four years they've surrounded Duncan with nothing but shooters (Steve Smith, Turkeylog, Barry, Finley, Bonner). Good job! However after winning the le, the Spurs had just lost SJax to ATL. Howard would have been the perfect fill-in complement to replace Jax's skill set. Need further evidence? They've been looking for an athletic swingman since Jax left. And by drafting him at the bottom of the round, Howard was cheap.
Even after coming up with a find with the 28th selection just two years before (Parker), they still didn't like the odds with another No.28.
Bull ! They didn't like their odds at 28? However, they would rather seek to build a northern version of the Argentine Olympic team. They already had taken the best Argentine player (Ginobili). There were less odds that another player taken from that same team would be half as good as him. Yet they kept going back to the crap table over and over again (Oberto, Scola). The well is dry already!
Sorry folks, but R.C. screwed the franchise on this one. He is a flat-out dumb-ass. Passing on Howard in the '03 draft, allowing the Mavs to select him one pick later and the fact that the Spurs have desparately needed, and still DO NOT have such a skill set on this team, makes it the dumbest personnel move in the history of the Spurs franchise and they are paying for it every day of every season.
As far as I'm concerned, the pendulum started to swing from that point on.
Dude, that whole article was posted already. Congrats.
manu is 2 and j. howard plays 3 on the mavs. he would have been the perfect bowen replacement.
as of right now i would rather have howard.
How about giving up two #1s for a rental of Nazr Mohammed? That was brilliant.
Anyways, the could've been drafted game is always fun. But what is really killing this team has been the excessive focus on avoiding long term deals for the supporting cast. What are they waiting for? Cap room when TD is 57 years old? The fear of the luxury tax has hamstrung the replenishment of that cast, sans RC's or whoever's draft foibles.
Sorry Kori. I remember it being Duncan lobbying Pop and RC, but they chose to go after their Jason Kidd pipe dream (both of them).
Someone already beat me to posting the article, but this Pop and Tim vs. RC thing is a bit of the usual revisionist hometown spin on how the Spurs ed up on not drafting Howard.
And while I'm critical of Pop's deficiencies as a coach and his maddening inability to adjust, I have a lot faith in Pop running a good front office. That said, it's clear that he and RC both ed up the Josh Howard decision.
PS - Not sure what I did to piss you off there, whatever it was sorry
Finally people are seeing what I saw coming for a few years. The spurs cannot just ride Duncan anymore without adding youth and athleticism around him.
No FO makes all the right decisions on every player but the lack of trades the spurs have pulled off as compared to other teams shows this FO is weak in improving the team with trades as compared to other teams. Trades are one of the best ways to improve a team and the spurs do almost nothing or get projects or one year rentals.
The spurs are not as good as other team's front offices in the trade market or even with free agent acquisitions.
Dallas, Denver, Detroit, Miami and Phoenix without the benefit of a cornerstone, number 1, franchise player and nba great like Duncan (who anyone on this board would have taken with the first pick)have turned around weak teams with agressive trades. Compare the players those teams have gotten and compare that with what the spurs have gotten with trades and it isn't even close.
christ, now you jackasses have done it..
You brought this sourpussed ahole out.
Who BTW, would've traded Ginobili for Vince Carter.
Enough said.
Don't forget some of the weak players the spurs have gotten like Steve Smith or doing nothing for fear of perserving the cap space for 3 years and ending up with Rasho as the big free agent signing. Or getting players that only last a year in the system like Nazr or Derek Anderson, or Claxton. Showing no interest in getting good players in the league while they were practically being given away for nothing more than expiring contracts.
Carter > Manu
name me the last time Carter won a huge playoff game against a tough defensive team like the Pistons?Carter > Manu
Oh yeah you can't, becuase hes such a huge pussy.
Get over it.
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