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  1. #26
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Well, any article that quotes Tigerhawk....

  2. #27
    Gotta Fly, to Old to drive. BIG IRISH's Avatar
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    Same old BS FROM YOU CHUMP, YOU CANNOT DEBATE THE CONTENT, SO YOU CRITIZE THE SOURCE. Typically weak-ass Democrat
    However try the BBChttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6289891.stm

    Crackdown 'nets 600 Sadr forces'

    Many Mehdi Army fighters have melted out of sight
    About 600 fighters and 16 leaders of the radical Shia militia, the Mehdi Army, have been captured by security forces in Iraq, the US military says.
    The statement said 52 operations had been conducted in 45 days targeting the militia, which is loyal to Najaf-based cleric Moqtada Sadr.

    Sunni extremists were also the focus of the crackdown, the US military said.

    US and Iraqi forces are currently preparing for a broad offensive in the strife-torn Iraqi capital Baghdad.

    In other developments:


    Five Iraqi police were reported to have been killed in a gun battle in Mosul

    At least three people died in car bomb attacks in central Baghdad

    The deaths of three US soldiers were announced

    Thirty Palestinian men were abducted in Baghdad by gunmen wearing police uniforms. They were later released.

    A civilian helicopter crashed in a Sunni area of Baghdad, killing five people. Unconfirmed reports said it had been shot down.
    A UN envoy in Iraq said the country was sliding "into the abyss of sectarianism" after two car bombs killed 88 people in a Baghdad market on Monday.

    "These deplorable outrages again underscore the urgent need for all Iraqis to reject violence and together choose the path of peace and reconciliation," Ashraf Qazi said in a statement.

    'Responsible for attacks'

    The military said five of the Mehdi Army leaders were detained in the pro-Sadr bastion, Sadr City. One senior figure was killed in a raid.

    Criminal activities by these individuals propagated instability within Iraq

    US military statement
    "The detainees are responsible for attacks against the government of Iraq, Iraqi citizens and coalition forces," the US military said.

    "Criminal activities by these individuals propagated instability within Iraq and their removal from the social structure is a critical start to providing the Iraqi populace with a safe and stable environment."

    In addition, 33 Sunni extremist cell leaders were detained in Baghdad, the statement said.

    The statement said they were "responsible for foreign fighter facilitation, car bomb facilitation, and propaganda operations".

    Correspondents say the Mehdi Army has up to 60,000 fighters.

    Harder line

    The BBC's Andrew North in Baghdad says it is still not clear how significant the senior Mehdi Army figures now in custody are.


    Sadr's group has spearheaded anti-US military action in the past
    But this appears to be the beginnings of a harder line on this widely feared Shia militia, he says.

    In the past, the Iraqi government has been criticised for turning a blind eye to Mehdi Army activities for political reasons.

    A spokesman for the movement would not confirm the numbers detained, but he said they were now seeing Iraqi and US raids almost every day.

    Police are still finding dozens of bodies across the capital every day, most of them believed to be the victims of sectarian death squads.

    Many Iraqis remain deeply sceptical that the Mehdi Army will be broken up, our correspondent says, and those fighters who have gone to ground are believed to have hidden their weapons, ready for future confrontations

    oops sorry that is a foreign source how about the AP
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070118/...q_070118180930

    Mahdi Army expressing siege mentality By STEVEN R. HURST, Associated Press Writer
    Thu Jan 18, 4:33 PM ET



    BAGHDAD, Iraq - Mahdi Army fighters said Thursday they were under siege in their Sadr City stronghold as U.S. and Iraqi troops killed or seized key commanders in pinpoint nighttime raids. Two commanders of the Shiite militia said Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has stopped protecting the group under pressure from Washington and threats from Sunni Muslim Arab governments.
    The two commanders' account of a growing siege mentality inside the organization could represent a tactical and propaganda feint, but there was mounting evidence the militia was increasingly off balance and had ordered its gunmen to melt back into the population. To avoid capture, commanders report no longer using cell phones and fighters are removing their black uniforms and hiding their weapons during the day.

    During much of his nearly eight months in office, al-Maliki has blocked or ordered an end to many U.S.-led operations against the Mahdi Army, which is run by radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, the prime minister's key political backer.

    As recently as Oct. 31, al-Maliki, trying to capitalize on American voter discontent with the war and White House reluctance to open a public fight with the Iraqi leader just before the election, won U.S. agreement to lift military blockades on Sadr City and another Shiite enclave where an American soldier was abducted.

    But al-Maliki reportedly had a change of heart in late November while going into a meeting in Jordan with President Bush. It has since been disclosed that the Iraqi leader's vision for a new security plan for Baghdad, to which Bush has committed 17,500 additional U.S. troops, was outlined in that meeting.

    Al-Maliki is said by aides to have told Bush that he wanted the Iraqi army and police to be in the lead, but he would no longer interfere to prevent U.S. attempts to roll up the Mahdi Army.

    In a meeting before his session with Bush, Jordan's King Abdullah II was said by al-Maliki confidants to have conveyed the increasing anger of fellow Sunni leaders in the Middle East over the continuing slaughter of Sunni Muslims at the hands of Shiite death squads.

    Until February, much of the violence in Iraq was the work of al-Qaida in Iraq and allied Sunni organizations. They had killed thousands of Shiites in random bomb attacks in what was seen as an al-Qaida bid to foment civil war.

    When al-Qaida bombers blew up the Golden Dome mosque, an important Shiite shrine in the mainly Sunni city of Samarra on Feb. 22, Shiite militiamen, especially the Mahdi Army fighters based in Sadr City, stormed out of the poor enclave in a drive for revenge that has only grown in ferocity.

    The U.N. reported this week that the sectarian fighting killed more than 34,000 Iraqis last year, a figure that was criticized but not disputed Thursday by the Iraqi government.

    With the Sunni threat in mind, evidence since the meetings in Jordan indicates that al-Maliki has kept his pledge to Bush that there would be no further interference in favor of Shiite militias.

    On Wednesday, the prime minister said 400 Mahdi Army fighters had been detained in recent months, although an exact timeframe was not given.

    The midlevel Mahdi Army commanders, who spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because the group operates in secret, said at least five top commanders of similar standing were captured or killed in recent months, including one snatched in a night raid from his Sadr City hide-out on Tuesday. They refused to name him.

    Two other key officials at the top of the organization were killed in raids last month:

    • Sahib al-Amiri, a senior al-Sadr military aide, was slain by American forces in the Shiite holy city of Najaf on Dec. 27. The U.S. military reported his death, calling him a criminal involved roadside bombings. Al-Sadr lives in Najaf.

    • The other top commander, identified by a third Mahdi Army commander as Abu al-Sudour, was shot to death in a joint U.S.-Iraqi raid last month as well. He was hunted down in Sadr City.

    The third commander, who also spoke anonymously to protect his iden y, said U.S.-led raiding parties were now also engaged in massive sweeps, having rounded up what he said was every male old enough to carry a gun in south Baghdad's Um al-Maalef neighborhood Tuesday night.

    The U.S. military spokesman, Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, alluded to the tactics early this month when he was asked by the AP if the coming security operation would focus on pinpoint raids or broader military engagements.

    "It'll be a combination of targeted killings and more traditional large-force operations," Caldwell said.

    There has been so much advance publicity about the coming security plan, major speeches by both Bush and al-Maliki, that the militant targets of the operation — both Sunni insurgents and Shiite militiamen — have had ample warning the U.S. and Iraqi militaries are drawing a bead.

    One of the Mahdi Army commanders who spoke with the AP said the early warning was not ignored.

    "Our top leadership has told us to lay low and not confront the Americans. But if Sadr City is attacked, if civilians are hurt, we will ignore those orders and take matters in our own hands. We won't need orders from Sheik Muqtada (al-Sadr)," the midlevel commander said.

    Others in the organization said street fighters have been told not to wear their black uniforms and to hide their weapons, to make their checkpoints less visible. Reports from the growing number of neighborhoods controlled by the militias indicate fighters are obeying.

    Gen. George Casey, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, said the security strategy and the additional American forces would allow the crackdown to be sufficiently broad to sweep up those who try to escape Baghdad and operate elsewhere.
    "On the militia, the Baghdad plan itself is integrated to a holistic, countrywide plan that the multinational corps is developing. And security for Baghdad won't just come from securing the inside of Baghdad," Casey said at a briefing on Monday.

    "It comes from the support zones around the outside as far away, as you suggest, Baqouba and Ramadi and Fallujah. It goes all the way out to the borders to stop the flow of foreign fighters and support coming in there."

    The Mahdi Army commanders said they were increasingly concerned about improved U.S. intelligence that has allowed the Americans to successfully target key figures in the militia.

    "We're no longer using cell phones except in emergencies. Some of our top commanders have not been home (in Sadr City) for a year because they fear capture," one of the commanders said.

    The militiamen said al-Sadr himself had apparently gotten wind of the coming assault and ordered a reshuffling of the Mahdi Army command structure, transferring many leaders to new districts and firing others who were of suspect loyalty.

    While Shiite militiamen were less in evidence on Baghdad streets, Sunni insurgents continued their bomb and shooting attacks in Shiite regions and Shiite death squads remained active at night.

    Police reported a total of 59 people killed or found dead Thursday, with the single largest toll from a triple car bombing that killed 10 in a wholesale vegetable market in a south Baghdad Shiite neighborhood. Twenty-seven bodies were found dumped in Baghdad, 19 on the largely Sunni west side of the Tigris, eight on the mainly Shiite east bank.

    FYFM CHUMP, it's not so much as the additional troops, but the troops and a change of tactics but why bother, and I wish ,Chump, you would stop trying
    to stand up stright. You lean so far to the left I don't see how you manage.

    Stop it, You don't need the stress.

  3. #28
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Hey, I hope it works. I've said so.

    So yourself, Tigerhawk.

  4. #29
    Gotta Fly, to Old to drive. BIG IRISH's Avatar
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    Hey, I hope it works. I've said so.

    So yourself, Tigerhawk.
    What is you definition of a moderator

  5. #30
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    Here's an interesting simulation of what the Shiite insurgent leaders might be thinking.

    ==============

    Looking at the Surge From the Other Side

    By Gary Anderson
    Friday, January 26, 2007;

    Policy Memo From the Planning Directorate, Mahdi Army:

    We have completed a review of the new American surge strategy announced by their president. In analyzing possible courses of action, we must make two key assumptions:

    First, it represents their administration's last chance to change course given the reported mood of the American public and their legislature. For us, this presents both opportunity and danger. We have to assume that we are the primary Shiite target of this plan. How we respond will largely determine how we position ourselves for operations after the Americans are gone.

    Second, our Sunni adversaries will not be able to react in a coordinated manner; they are expected to remain divided in their actions and motivations.

    Our first potential course of action would be to openly resist government and American efforts to gain control over Sadr City and other predominately Shiite neighborhoods. Potential advantage: Waging a stand-up battle could create such chaos and so many disturbing images of casualties -- American and Iraqi -- that the American public and Congress will demand an immediate withdrawal.

    The disadvantages here are that such a battle would weaken us by causing attrition to our best fighters. We are just now recovering from the casualties that we sustained in the 2004 fighting with the occupiers. We must keep in mind (and be prepared for) the inevitable post-American battles with the Sunnis and the Badr Organization.

    A second potential course of action is classic insurgent strategy: going to ground when confronted by enemy strength. The object here would be to lull the enemy into a false sense of security, perhaps enough for him to begin decreasing his strength early. Once the Americans have carried out a significant drawdown, we could openly challenge the government forces and attempt to push them out of our areas of influence. It is very likely this would have the effect of the Vietnamese Tet Offensive in convincing the Americans that nothing they do will work. It is also unlikely that their administration could get support for reinforcing Baghdad once they have begun to reduce troop levels.

    Potential drawbacks:

    First, there is always the chance that the Americans and the Maliki government will use this period to significantly increase the capability of the security forces and actually gain public support through increasing public service and employment, rendering us far less useful to Maliki. Given their performance to date, this is a remote possibility, but it cannot be totally discounted.

    More likely is that some of our more enthusiastic fighters will resist on their own authority. Given the decentralized nature of our command-and-control system, this possibility must be considered. One solution would be to create training camps outside of Baghdad where we could hone their skills for urban combat (necessary if we are to succeed in the future). This would keep them occupied and out of the way.

    A third course would be to avoid challenging the Americans and government forces directly but continue to attack them with IEDs and snipers. There will be many more American targets on the street, and a continuing stream of casualties would further undermine American public support. This has the advantage of keeping our fingerprints off such operations because the Sunnis will probably do this regardless of what we do. This also conserves our combat power. It shares the potential disadvantage that the American "hearts and minds" strategy may actually work and that the security forces will increase in capability. Again, we think this is unlikely.

    Consequently, this final course seems to be the one most likely to serve our long-term interests by preserving our capabilities and allowing the Sunnis to bear the brunt and take the blame for most anti-government action. Clearly, America's time here is limited. Hurrying its exit at the cost of weakening our position does not make sense. We have been patient for a thousand years; another year or so is nothing.

    If God wills it, we will be successful.

    The writer, a defense consultant, has been an opposition player in many war games regarding Iraq and Afghanistan.

    =================

    So, we'll see how the surgee insurgents react to the surging surgers.

    The context is that even if the surge works, there is /will be no Iraqi state or govt or non-compromised/infiltrated Iraqi army/police to "stand up".

    The insurgents can wait in Iraq much longer than dubya can.
    When dubya stands down, the insurgents/Iran will resurge and stand up, not the Iraqi "government".

  6. #31
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Here's an interesting simulation of what the Shiite insurgent leaders might be thinking.

    ==============

    Looking at the Surge From the Other Side

    By Gary Anderson
    Friday, January 26, 2007;

    Policy Memo From the Planning Directorate, Mahdi Army:

    We have completed a review of the new American surge strategy announced by their president. In analyzing possible courses of action, we must make two key assumptions:...
    Okay, you can stop right there.

    Why the do they even have our surge strategy to review?

    Oh yeah, because the defeatists in this country have been wailing, non-stop, for 4 years demanding this President share his war strategy with the world. And, when he won't, they leak it to the New York Times or, they sue their own government on behalf of the terrorists.

    But, on a brighter note, I doubt the President revealed enough in his public statements for the Mahdi Army to conclude anything, much less develop a sufficient counter strategy. In other words, yeah, I think he lied to you about the surge strategy. Really, what choice does he have?

    The surge is underway. The rules of engagement have changed. They're ed.

  7. #32
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    "demanding this President share his war strategy with the world."

    dubya didn't have a strategy to finish Iran, only to start it. There was NO STRATEGY to reveal or leak. Rummy threatened to fire any Generals who talked about the need for post-invasion planning.

    If the surge strategy is so ing brilliant and guaranteed success, why wasn't it tried 3 years ago? Because Rummy was a disaster, and dubya didn't/doesn't have a clue.

    The surge only comes as a last resort. Every "strategy" up now, not that they were much to talk about, has failed. But the surge will "win" Iraq? Right, I'm not holding my breath.

    Military victory in Iraq, assuming there will be one, will be as empty as the US military victory in the VN Tet offensive, which was a horrible setback for the NVA/VC.

    There is no Iraq there. Whatever was there under Saddam, a very effective counter-weight to Iran and NO THREAT TO USA, was destroyed by dubya, and there's nothing there to replace it.

  8. #33
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    We are just now recovering from the casualties that we sustained in the 2004 fighting with the occupiers.
    Hmmm, huh?

    Anyway, one thing I don`t get. How can your army be underfunded? You spend billions upon billions for the military and it`s underfunded? WTF? Where does the money go? Is it spent on hookers or what?

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