danny boy just loves the attention fellas. he gets his rocks off by this.
so be it.
i have no problem with our soldiers killing the roaches.
if/when a nuke goes off in the US, Dan will be pointing the finger at the whitehouse, if it's still there. that's all you need to know about that.
I saw this on CNN and msnbc last night and this is just what we were discussing yesterday. You dont shoot wounded just because you can. This guy may be in big trouble. I really feel sorry for our guys.
Our man was shot in the face the day before and was back in the war just the next day. This is just a ing shame. We are driving these kids insane just like we did in the Viet Nam war. Great.
For the record , when a nuke goes off in the US I will be pointing the finger at the white house who has done jack to strengthen border security.
Anyhow, Dan, take a deep breath, and step back. The US is not targeting civilians, and while I'm waiting to see the results of this action, I am concerned about the marines action.
It's all about perception, and if the perception in Iraq is that our soliders are assasinating people (whether true or not), we're going to have taken a step backwards.
i agree about our borders.....
i think it's sad that our media is contributing to anti-american perceptions.....
So they should not report this?
Are you suggesting that the media lie to us for the sake of our already tarnished reputation. Yeah that's really gonna help by misleading our own people.i think it's sad that our media is contributing to anti-american perceptions.....
As for not knowing what really happened. There is a video where one marine accuses the insurgent of faking his injury and is not dead. The other one then shoots the insurgent and then say's "he's dead now."
That sounds like a war crime. Like it or not.
No, but I would suggest the cir stances of what are reflected in that bit of footage are a whole lot more complex than most of the viewing public are willing to contemplate before they take a stance on what it "allegedly" shows.
Kind of like the Rodney King video.
Oh OH OH, so now the public is incapable of deciphering the video for themselves??!?!?!??!
Now, this is coming from someone who was clammoring on and on about how those same people had spoken and we should shut up with all our liberl nonsense?
Heh, actually, I agree with you that they don't understand completely. Perception is reality, even when it's not.
Yeah, pretty much.
And, it's the same liberal assholes spewing the same liberal nonsense that's going get this blown out of proportion. So, in essence, I'm still on message thank you very much.
Personally, I think the argument over why we're no longer allowing embedded journalists would be an easier fight than having to explain every single story filed from the field of battle. But, that's just me.
I think the embeds do more good for your cause than harm.
Yonivore, I acknowledge that Kerry lost the election can't you acknowledge that war crimes do happen? Not every soldier is innocent.
I think everything should be reported. I don't believe the soldiers in question should be revealed atleast until they have had their due military process. I think it's easy to have a strong gut reaction to videos like this. But there is much more to this story that none of here know. This is a war, it is not your local cops stopping some one for a speeding ticket. Rules of war are hard to understand for most of us when looking at them from a so far removed perspective. From what I understand, it is very reasonable to take the actions that those marines took in that situation. Let the military investigate it and judge accordingly.
Last edited by Useruser666; 11-16-2004 at 03:28 PM.
Nor is every alledged bad seed an indictment of the operation.Not every soldier is innocent.
IMHO, this needs to be dealt with and not swept under the rug. I hope Col. Jessup isn't in charge.
Dan...Answer if you dare.... What nationality are you??????? Show us a picture.
Therein lies the rub. Where's proof we're targeting civilians. Our military goes out of its way with smart weapons and strict rules of engagement to limit civilian casualties, to the point where we've probably lost several of our troops in Iraq (don't even get me started on Somalia) to protect civilians.but targeting civilians is a war crime none-the-less.
This post is the clearest example yet that you don't know how the to win this fight Dan.The Battle of Fallujah is the clearest example yet that the Coalition and Allawi government doesn't have a clue about what its doing in Iraq. If they did they would have realized by now that they are going to have to make deals with some of the Sunnis that they are now fighting
We're dealing with people who had the same mindset the Japanese did in WWII: fight to the last man. You aren't going to negotiate with them, there will be no reasoning. You've got to do the same thing we did to Japan in WWII: kill enough of them to make them want to quit fighting.
And by the looks of the body count in Fallujah, it worked. Turn the Marines lose a few more times in Iraq, the Sunnis will be at the table ready to sign up to vote and run candidates.
On the imbeds, I disagree completely that they are bad for us. In the past any time we did anything heavy handed, some little POS insurgent would cry to Al Jazeera or whoever had a video camera that we were targeting Islam, attacking their mosques.
What have you seen in Fallujha? Every time we got to a mosque or religious site, we brought cameramen with us, who broadcast footage to the world that insurgent trash was firing at troops, both Iraqi and American, from the roofs or minarets of the mosques.
Once the video is shot of that, then we are returning fire to end the threat, and sending in the Iraqis to clear the mosques.
You haven't heard a peep out of the anti-American media (either our or own or Al Jazeera) about coalition atrocities against Muslim holy sites as a result.
And these messages and images are also being broadcast all over Iraq, so that the people of that country see that the BS rumors spread on the streets saying we're razeing mosques are just that - BS rumors.
Prior to the Fallujah assault, Iraqi TV even broadcasted taped confessions of captured foreign fighters admitting their countries of origin to prove to Iraqi people that the US is not targetting Iraqis, but trying to get the foreign filth out of the country.
We had been losing the PR war in Iraq, with people beginning to embrace the idea that we are the occupiers. Foreign Muslims coming in and wreaking havoc in one's country is probably one of the few things that piss off Muslims more than an outside country like the US coming into their lands.
In short, in Fallujah we started the progress of bringing the Sunnis to the negotiating table via the "Japan approach" and before, during, and after we have been waging a very effective PR campaign to the people of Iraq and the Mideast showing that it is the foreigners we are trying to take care of, at the request and insistence of the Iraqi government.
History will show both that we started down the road to successful elections and a successful peace in Fallujah, and it will also give assholes like Dan who are rooting for USA to lose a whole lot more to cry about.
very nice AHF. enjoyed that post.
We are not fighting Al-Queda here. Yes, they are Nationalists Islamists and yes they want to kill our troops, but look at what we have done to their country. Wouldn't you do the same as them if France invaded San Antonio?We're dealing with people who had the same mindset the Japanese did in WWII: fight to the last man. You aren't going to negotiate with them, there will be no reasoning. You've got to do the same thing we did to Japan in WWII: kill enough of them to make them want to quit fighting.
We went there to liberate these people from Saddam. Liberation done. What the are we still doing there?
Meanwhile, the Marines have rallied around the soldier who was captured shooting a wounded Iraqi...
Reuters~snip~
FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - U.S. Marines rallied round a comrade under investigation for killing a wounded Iraqi during the offensive in Falluja, saying he was probably under combat stress in unpredictable, hair-trigger cir stances.
Marines interviewed on Tuesday said they didn't see the shooting as a scandal, rather the act of a comrade who faced intense pressure during the effort to quell the insurgency in the city.
"I can see why he would do it. He was probably running around being shot at for days on end in Falluja. There should be an investigation but they should look into the cir stances," said Lance Corporal Christopher Hanson.
"I would have shot the insurgent too. Two shots to the head," said Sergeant Nicholas Graham, 24, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. "You can't trust these people. He should not be investigated. He did nothing wrong."
NY TimesThe inquiry will also have to determine what happened to the other Iraqis in the room. Some of them, according to the initial NBC report, appeared to be dead or dying when Mr. Sites entered with a group of marines, joining other marines who were already there. He has suggested that the other Iraqis may have been shot just before he entered, according to The Associated Press.
On Tuesday, Mr. Sites declined to elaborate on what he had seen.
After the on-camera shooting, marines pointed their guns at another prone Iraqi who was reaching out weakly with one hand, but they backed off without shooting at him, the videotape showed.
The initial NBC report said that the Iraqis, all of whom had been wounded in fighting on Friday and then had been disarmed and left in the mosque, did not appear to be threatening, and that there were no weapons visible in the room.
The incident captured in the NBC report unfolded as members of the Third Battalion, First Regiment of the First Marine Division entered the unidentified mosque in Falluja on Saturday. Mr. Sites reported that marines from a different unit had attacked the building on Friday after coming under fire, killing 10 insurgents and wounding 5 others. The marines treated the wounded on Friday, took their weapons and then left, Mr. Sites reported. On Saturday, another group of marines, accompanied by Mr. Sites, entered the mosque, but it is unclear how many of the Iraqis were still alive then.
Is shooting unarmed wounded prisoners still a war crime in your America?
If I point something that looks like a gun at you and you shoot me dead, did you commit a crime? None of us know what happened exactly. That is why it should be investigated by the military authorities.
I finally got to see the video on nightline last night. I know it's a warzone, and I know it must be investigated, but it doesn't look like the solidier was under a direct threat. I'll pass final judgement when the military is done however.
You heard the reports of insurgents booby-trapping their own dead right? That's not Kansas.
right, and if the guy is dead the body is no longer booby trapped right?
Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
Here's the musings of a former US Navy SEAL, who's actually been there...
http://froggyruminations.blogspot.co...ty-rounds.htmlThey're Called Security Rounds
Its a safety issue pure and simple. After assaulting through a target, put a security round in everybody's head. Sorry al-Reuters, there's no paddy wagon rolling around Fallujah picking up "prisoners" and offering them a hot cup a joe, falafel, and a blanket. There's no time to around in the target, you clear the space, dump the chumps, and moveon.org. Are Corpsman expected to treat wounded terrorists? Negative. Hey libs, worried about the defense budget? Well, it would be waste, fraud, and abuse for a Corpsman to spend one man minute or a battle dressing on a terrorist, its much cheaper to just spend the $.02 on a 5.56mm FMJ.
By the way, terrorists who chop off civilian's heads are not prisoners, they are carcasses.
UPDATE: Let me be very clear about this issue. I have looked around the web, and many people get this concept, but there are some stragglers. Here is your situation Marine. You just took fire from unlawful combatants shooting from a religious building attempting to use the sanctuary status of their position as protection. But you're in Fallujah now, and the Marine Corps has decided that they're not playing that game this time. That was Najaf. So you set the mosque on fire and you hose down the terrorists with small arms, launch some AT-4s (Rockets), some 40MM grenades into the building and things quiet down. So you run over there, and find some tangos wounded and pretending to be dead. You are aware that suicide martyrdom is like really popular with these kind of idiots, and like taking some Marines with them would be really cool. So you can either risk your life and your fireteam's lives by having them cover you while you bend down and search a guy that you think is pretending to be dead for some reason. Also, you don't know who or what is in the next room, and you're already speaking english to each other and its loud because your hearing is poor from shooting people for several days. So you know that there are many other rooms to enter, and that if anyone is still alive in those rooms, they know that Americans are in the mosque. Meanwhile (3 seconds later), you still have this terrorist that was just shooting at you from a mosque playing possum. What do you do?
You double tap his head, and you go to the next room, that's what.
What about the Geneva Conventions and all that Law of Land Warfare stuff? What about it. Without even addressing the issues at hand you first thought should be, "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6." Bear in mind that this is a perpetual mindset that is reinforced by experiences gained on a minute by minute basis. Secondly, you are fighting an unlawful combatant in a Sanctuary which is a double No No on his part. Third, tactically you are in no position to take "prisoners" because there are more rooms to search and clear, and the behavior of said terrorist indicates that he is up to no good. No good in Fallujah is a very large place and the low end of no good and the high end of no good are fundamentally the same... Marines get hurt or die. So there is no compelling reason for you to do anything but double tap this idiot and get on with the mission.
If you are a veteran then everything I have just written is self evident, if you are not a veteran than at least try to put yourself in the situation. Remember, in Fallujah there is no yesterday, there is no tomorrow, there is only now. Right NOW. Have you ever lived in NOW for a week? It is not easy, and if you have never lived in NOW for longer than it takes to finish the big roller coaster at Six Flags, then shut your hole about putting Marines in jail for war crimes. Be advised, I am not talking to my readers, but if this post gets linked up, I want regular folks to get this message loud and clear. Froggy OUT.
And Dan, off. If you think what we're doing is really wrong, why don't you go over there and help "the cause"?
woah woah, that article suggests that because the other side doesn't follow geneva, we don't as well.
That's not our policy, and nor should it be.
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