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Donīt say that,you may hurt some peopleīs feelings in here.
lets retire manu's number
Donīt say that,you may hurt some peopleīs feelings in here.
although they're not the same type of players, would you rather change the current parker Manu tandem for a Kidd Carter tandem?
no,what did they win together anyways?
good point.Was talking about NBA though.
if thatīs the case Scola did win one too,but many spurs fans here think that means .but thatīs ok
I think you might be reading this slightly wrong, perhaps because you are looking at this from TP's perspective only. Parker have always had his best +/- numbers when paired with Manu, but the same is not true the other way around.
Last season, Manu had his best +/- when paired with Parker.
Last year Parker's best teammate was Manu, with a +13/48min for the tandem TP/Manu. However, from Manu's perspective his best teammates in terms of +/- production were Horry (+17), Beno (+17), TD (+13), TP (+13) and Rasho (+13).
This tendency has been constant since Manu joined the Spurs:
2003-2004
TP: +8 with Manu (TP's best with any teammate)
Manu: +8 with TP was the lowest of all teammates sans Mercer, Rose and Bowen; e.g. +15 Hedo, +14 Hart, +12 Duncan, +11 Horry, etc.
2004-2005
TP: +15 with Manu (TP's best with any teammate)
Manu: +15 with TP was average for Manu, e.g. +19 Duncan, +18 Horry, +17 Barry, etc.
It is clear that Manu brings the best +/- production in TP, but not the other way around. Maximizing the time they don't overlap on the field is not a bad thing for the Spurs, if Manu is more productive with other teammates.
While I usually disagree with George Karl's view, I do tend to agree with this quote from the article:
"Having their top three guys on the court together for 25, 30 minutes was unbalanced," Denver's George Karl said. "Now that they only have their three best players on the court together for 15 or 20 minutes it's easier to balance out the egos and the touches, and that's part of basketball."
The fact that Manu has the highest True Shooting % of any Spurs' player with 60.8% (and tied 11th overall in the entire league) only means good things with slightly more touches, since you maximize production per possession.
Last edited by Rick Von Braun; 03-01-2007 at 07:06 PM.
don't get me wrong... i'm a big fan of our franco-argentinian back court but i assume that a Kidd - Carter - Duncan team might win les too
that was a great post.
But the thing is that when TP and Manu are on the floor Mnu becomes the 3 rd scoring option,andParker gets more space to penetrate when Manu is on the floor tham when he isnīt.(and thatīs alright I must say)
but at the same time i must say also that ,the scenario changes in the playoffs and more on key games(like game 5,6 or 7)when manu becomes the 2nd or the 1st scoring option when he is on the floor,regardless on who is or isnīt playing.
manu is stronger in the head then TP when it really counts... he's just more mature despite his "crazyness" on the floor
the way manu leads his national team to world and olympic medals says it all
Well, its pretty clear that as long as this streak keeps going, Pop won't make any lineup changes, and I don't expect this streak to end for at least another seven or eight games, perhaps more.
So we've got plenty more games to see Manu come off the bench.
The log can be described pretty simply just with math.
Duncan and Parker play about 34-35 MPG. Manu plays about 28-29 MPG.
Let say these are your highest priorities:
1. Playing all three of them together for as long as possible in the fourth quarter (3-star time).
2. Playing at least two of them together (2-star time) at as much as possible, because the Spurs suck otherwise.
Through trial and error, you find that the longest amount of time you can have all three on the court is about 6 minutes. The rest of the time can be broken down many ways, such as.
Tim-Tony 17 minutes
Tim- Manu 11 minutes
Manu-Tony 11 minutes
0-star time 3 minutes
If you play all three together more than 6 minutes a game, then you have to increase the number of minutes of 0-1 star time, which is Bad For The Spurs. And if you start all three, then that will not only increase the 0-1 star time, but will decrease the number of minutes of 3-star time in the fourth, which is also Bad For The Spurs (unless they're blowing somebody out).
FOr now, this move is generating good numbers....but please, don't start finley!!!
Who cares who starts.
As long as the big 3 end games.
Actually if you use lenovo stats, which the NBA uses, you can see here that Manu had his best +/- last regular season with Parker.
http://www.nba.com/statistics/lenovo...t=9&team=Spurs
Parker actually had better +/- with Duncan and Bowen than he did with Manu. But Manu's best combination was with Parker.
In the postseason, Manu's +/- was highest with Duncan, followed closely by with Parker.
http://www.nba.com/statistics/lenovo...t=9&team=Spurs
This season, the best two player combination on the Spurs is Bowen/Duncan.So I don't know how highly I rate +/- for the Spurs.
http://www.nba.com/statistics/lenovo...t=9&team=Spurs
I know you are getting your stats from somewhere else, but these are what the NBA uses. NBA.com, 82games.com and Popcorn Machine all usually vary a bit (even if you use per 48 on each). I'm not sure why that is.
No, I was using the total numbers. Manu had his highest +/- total when paired with Parker ... for both the regular season and the playoffs.
Ginobili played more minutes with Duncan, but his +/- total was lower than his +/- total with Parker. And I never hear anyone say Duncan hurts Manu's game.
Everyone usually has their best +/- numbers per minute with Manu. Manu is the +/- king. Always has been.
Why is that? Well, not only is he a great player, but because he plays limited minutes (compared to most stars), so anyone on the court for his half of the game is going to do well. If Manu was forced to play 35-38 minutes per game, his +/- wouldn't always be amazingly high.
If Manu is the king of +/-, then Horry is the next in line. Since he's been a Spur, his +/- have always been very high (other than this year).
Pairing both Manu and Horry makes sense to be the top -- especially considering that when they play together, it's usually at the end of games.
When paired with Beno last year, Manu assumed more of the point guard role (notice the APG). But his +17 is tough to judge because Beno played such few minutes last year.
Next on the list is Parker. Manu was +13.4 with Parker, +12.9 with Duncan and +12.5 with Rasho.
So, if you want to use +/- totals, Manu was best when paired with Parker. If you want to use +/- per 48 minutes, Parker was third ... yet only behind a +/- specialist and the little time Beno played.
Again, I agree with Manu coming off the bench ... but I don't think it's main purpose is to play Tony and Manu less together. If anything, it means they'll play more together in the fourth quarter than ever.
And really, Manu playing worse because Tony is on the court is a myth. People like to act like with ballhog Tony off the court, Manu will be free to shine.
If you look at last year's stats, Manu averaged 22.5 points per 48 minutes when on the court with Parker. That's one of his highest marks.
Parker on the other hand averaged 21.2 points per 48 minutes when paired with Manu. That was the lowest Parker averaged with anyone paired with him on the entire team.
If anything, when Parker and Ginobili are separated, it's Parker's stats which go up more than Ginobili's stats do.
But again, "separating" the two players isn't really the issue. That implies that one of them holds the other back. The truth is the Spurs are best when they are on the court together.
It doesn't have anything to do with separating egos. Like Manu said, when he comes off the bench, Tim and Tony are on their way to the bench. That allows Manu to be more aggressive scoring wise.
What hurt the Spurs at times this year was when Pop played lineups with one or none of the big three on the court. With Manu coming off the bench, we don't see that anymore.
Check Brent Barry's TS%
It's good to see that you agree with Manu coming off the bench. I know that in the past that you've been against it.
The more I see it, the more I like it. Manu can concentrate on scoring when he comes into the game. Pop can always keep at least one of the big three on the court. And most importantly, Tony, Manu and Tim can play together more in the fourth quarters.
I also think the Spurs switching from Beno to Vaughn is going to help Manu. With Beno, Manu had to waste energy being a semi-point guard out there and oftentimes had to guard smaller players. Now with Vaughn, he's a good enough ballhandler that Manu can just concentrate on scoring, and a good enough defender that Manu will never be forced to guard a ballhandler.
Hi Kori
Perhaps you may be reading this incorrectly. When evaluating which pair of players play better with each other, the only way to draw a meaningful comparison is normalizing playing times, since each pair of players play different times. Therefore, it is more important the +/- per unit of time when comparing pair of players. Allow me a very simple illustration: if players A and B play 1000 minutes together and have +100, and players A and C play 500 minutes together and have a +75, the better pair is A/C by 50% per minute played, despite the fact that the absolute +/- is larger for A/B. Of course, if pair X and Y played only 5 minutes together, there is simply not enough data to say anything meaningful, which is why I usually compare the main guys in the Spurs' rotation only.
Unfortunately, the Lenovo stats you indicated only have the raw +/-, and +/- per minute is not calculated (the column is empty), but it should be easily calculated based on playing time.
This is related to the explanation above. The players that log the most minutes in general, and the most minutes with TD in particular are TP and Bowen, so the raw +/- is expected to be higher with both of them.In the postseason, Manu's +/- was highest with Duncan, followed closely by with Parker.
http://www.nba.com/statistics/lenovo...t=9&team=Spurs
This season, the best two player combination on the Spurs is Bowen/Duncan.
http://www.nba.com/statistics/lenovo...t=9&team=Spurs
The only thing that has been a constant for the Spurs since 2003 is that Manu and TD are the two players that consistently make all other teammates better. Each teammate gets higher +/- when playing with Manu/TD than their own average +/- since 2003. Manu has been perfect in this regard every year with the Spurs, and TD has been almost perfect, with the sole exception of last year, since he didn't play that well with Horry and Oberto (in the latter case only marginal minutes so it should not count for much).
There are small differences, that mostly depend on how they process the logs. For instance, if a player gets on the court while some other player (same or opposing team) is shooting FTs, some criteria might determine that the results of the 2 FTs belong to the player that was on the court at the time of the foul, some other criteria might determine that the new player gets penalized or credit for the FT points, and other simply split the FTs. There are other examples that can explain the differences, but I hope you catch my gist.
However, all these differences are quite small, so my point remains. For example, NBA.com says the TP-Manu in the 2005-2006 season had a +333 while 82games.com says it was +342. Since they played together roughly 1230 minutes, their +/- per 48 minutes are virtually identical (+13.0 NBA.com vs +13.3 82games.com). A couple of decimal points do not change main point.
True. And that's a great sign. Per minute, I'd say Duncan and Manu are the Spurs' best players. That they always have a positive impact on the rest of their teammates is a great sign.
However, take out pairs where Parker is paired with the backup point guard, and Parker did the same thing last year and is close to doing it again this year. All he'd have to do is improve 1 point per 48 minutes when paired with Horry. In the '05 season, he was also very, very close.
So it's not like Duncan and Manu make everyone much better and Parker makes players worse. Maybe you could say that in the '03-04 season, but in the last three years, Parker is right with Duncan and Manu.
Take away the twin point guard backcourts and the Spurs have three players who make their teammates better and have been doing it for three seasons.
I can live with that.
Hey timvp
The differences last year were very small...
Manu-TP played 1228 minutes together with +342, i.e. +13.3 per 48
Manu-TD played 1281 minutes together with +344, i.e. +12.9 per 48
Again, there might be small variations depending on the source and the criteria used to assign +/- in certain cir stances, but overall they all pretty much agree.
This is true when comparing him with players that play ~40 minutes per game, but not necessarily true when comparing him with players that play less than 35 minutes per game. No player on the Spurs plays more than 35 minutes in the regular season.
Nope, that is an insult to Duncan. Both Manu and Duncan have being Kings since 2003.If Manu is the king of +/-, then Horry is the next in line. Since he's been a Spur, his +/- have always been very high (other than this year
Correct. I won't argue about the precision of the numbers or the sources, but you should agree with me that there is a significant difference between +17 and +13 and there is not a significant difference between +13.3 and +12.9. What is wrong with pairing Manu more minutes with Beno and Horry last year if we could come back in time?
I disagree... I think it is benefitial that they play less together... if for no other reason that each may have more touches and don't get in the way of each other. TP plays as a SG, so it is better to let him do his thing with Brent or Finley as a spot up shooter and let Manu rest on the bench. This is not a derogatory comment on TP and/or Manu. It is the coach obligation to put his players in the best conditions to succeed for the benefit of the team.
Correct, but still lower than when Manu played with Beno, Barry or Horry. What would have been the issue of matching Manu more time with these guys? They get larger number of differential points per possesion, they would have increased Spurs production even more.
Points per 48 minutes is not the most important thing. Outscoring your opponent is. Tony get's the best point differential for the Spurs when playing with Manu. I don't know what it is, but Manu certainly helps him and the team.
It has nothing to do with egos, but it has to do with touches. And I don't mean touches only to score, but to distribute the ball and find weakness in the opponent. I've seen Manu many times not attempting a FG when on the court without TD and TP, and still the Spurs outscore the opponent.
I agree, but it would be relatively simple to find a rotation where the big 3 start and finish, and the rest of the game almost every time there are 2 of the big 3 on court. It is not rocket science, so I don't think this coming off the bench has been the key.
Very good point. A lot of players do not qualify according to NBA league leaders rules, so they are not included in the link provided. These rules to qualify players with a threshold are in place to avoid outliers of very few minutes played, few attempts, few games, etc. Brent has been excluded for an arbitrary threshold decided by the NBA, but he certainly has had a magnificient TS% so far.Check Brent Barry's TS%
I somehow agree with all these points, but I also think they are orthogonal with Manu coming off the bench. Having alternative playing times other than the first and last 6 minutes of the game is perfectly possible with an adequate rotation.
There is one weakness on the coming off the bench that I think is quite obvious, in particular for the playoffs. You keep arguing that Manu cannot play for extended minutes, but I am certain that he will play at least 32 minutes per game during the playoffs. If he comes off the bench and doesn't play the first 6 minutes of the first and third quarter (12 minutes), it means he will have to play 32 out of the remaining 36 minutes (48 - 12), i.e. 4 court minutes of rest for the entire game. Pop would be killing him physically.
Furthermore, as Kori said, I think the Spurs enter the game at full throttle in the playoffs riding all their horses.
I am with Kori here... coming playoff time, he will be starting the first and third quarters in order to get him more resting time over the entire game and hopefully to impose the Spurs tempo and will over the game.
This is a good point. I hope it works better than Nick's experiment last year.
Cheers!
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