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I would add that I don't believe Manu is quite finished with his NBA resume....
I can't believe I'm agreeing with a Mavs fan, but yes, 7.2ppg players do not get enshrined in the b-ball HOF.
I think Ginobili is a lock for his complete body of work: NBA champion, Euroleague champion and international competions like the WCs and the Olympics Gold medal. Remember, it's the basketball HOF, not the NBA HOF.
I would add that I don't believe Manu is quite finished with his NBA resume....
Here is one site's formula to determine HOF likelihood for NBA players. It's quite an arbitrary formula, with a cutoff of 135 points, but since the Magic/Bird days, there are only a handful of players under that mark that are in, and a handful over that aren't. It's pretty damned accurate. The page in the link outlines the criteria, and there is a link at the bottom that takes you to the lists of players, past and present, and their scores. You can argue the formula, but not the totals and results.
HOF monitor
How the is Jason Kidd not a no-brainer?
ginobili is not going to make the HOF with his current resume
LMAO at J-Kidd being a maybe at the same time One-Way Nash being a no-brainer.
Are you basing that on his NBA career or his entire BASKETBALL career?
Exstatic said it:Remember, it's the basketball HOF, not the NBA HOF.
He has been a champion and a star at every level of professional ball he has played. I think he gets in based on his whole PROFESSIONAL career, not just his NBA career.
Nash is a no-brainer only because of the MVPs. No eligable MVP is out of the Hall, so there's no way the NBA allows a two-time MVP to be the first. If for no other reason, they won't allow the award itself to be lessened.
As someone who's watched Kidd a lot, I can tell you I never cared for his game. He made some great passes in transition, but all in all, he was a complete bust for Phoenix. He's done great in New Jersey (at least for the first two seasons), but as mentioned, it was the Leastern Conference. In those two trips to the Finals, he led his Nets past just one fifty-win team. ONE. That means in one trip the Nets failed to play a single 50-win team. They had a really ty conference back then and it didn't take much to make it out, hence their 8-2 record vs. the West's best during their two Finals trips.
With Phoenix, the teams he led went out in the first round year after year. The only time the Suns advanced during his tenure with them was 2000, when he was out with a broken leg, KJ was manning the point and Duncan, for the Spurs, was out with injury. He returned for the Lakers series and the Suns were quickly run off the floor in five games.
His stats say he's a lock, but his marginal successes may cause question in some minds.
Again, against the Western Conference his teams were 0-fer in the Playoffs. Kidd-led teams are like 1-for-8 vs. 50-win teams. As soon as the East becomes competative again, his team, which has talent, fades.
I'm not saying he's not deserving, because he is, but I certainly can see why some would have reservations.
A lot of people would say the award itself was already lessened when they gave it to Nash twice.
The sum total of your argument is that Nash did better with the Suns than Kidd. I'd like to see what Nash would do with Clifford Robinson, Rex Champman, Danny Manning, and Tom Gugliotta.As someone who's watched Kidd a lot, I can tell you I never cared for his game. He made some great passes in transition, but all in all, he was a complete bust for Phoenix. He's done great in New Jersey (at least for the first two seasons), but as mentioned, it was the Leastern Conference. In those two trips to the Finals, he led his Nets past just one fifty-win team. ONE. That means in one trip the Nets failed to play a single 50-win team. They had a really ty conference back then and it didn't take much to make it out, hence their 8-2 record vs. the West's best during their two Finals trips.
With Phoenix, the teams he led went out in the first round year after year. The only time the Suns advanced during his tenure with them was 2000, when he was out with a broken leg, KJ was manning the point and Duncan, for the Spurs, was out with injury. He returned for the Lakers series and the Suns were quickly run off the floor in five games.
Oh, and no way Nash gets those Nets teams to the Finals, even playing in the East.
All-NBA First Team 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004I'm not saying he's not deserving, because he is, but I certainly can see why some would have reservations.
All-NBA Second Team 2003
(Nash: First Team 2005, 2006, Third Team 2003, 2004)
All-Defense First Team 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002
All-Defense Second Team 2003, 2004, 2005
(Nash:)
5th All-Time APG average (Nash: 15th)
7th All-Time Assists (Nash: 30th)
Head-to-head, the only one there should be reservations about is Nash.
They both will probably make it, but if Nash gets in and Kidd doesn't, they should burn the place down.
your hate for nash is disturbing.
That guard from Portland and NJ, Drazen Petrovic, is in the hall, based on a similar Euro/NBA split career. I think Manu has probably done more, but I won't speak ill of the dead. DP was killed in a car crash at age 28.
Manu is the only player to win an NBA championship, an Olympic gold, and a Euro League championship, and he was a key player on all of them, if not THE key player. He was also an NBA All Star in 2004.
Drazen's national team did win the World Championships in 1990, and he was 3rd team All NBA in 1993, his last year on earth.
It's not hate, it's just the truth.
While it's true that being the MVP has been a guarantee for the HoF, let's put that aside for a second. After all, Jason Kidd should've beaten TD for the MVP a few years ago based on today's criteria.
If Jason Kidd and Steve Nash both retired today, based on what they've done in their careers, I'd only put Kidd in the Hall. I think Nash will get in when it's all set and done (based on merit, not MVPs), but to say Nash is a no-brainer and Kidd isn't is crazy talk.
if you have joe dumars in the hall
nash deserves to go
nuff said
i will be a first ballot HOF'er
IMHO Reggie Miller is not a Hall of Famer. Hall of Famers should be the best players during their era. Reggie Miller made the All-NBA team only three times (all 3rd team). Longevity and some memorable playoff performances are simply not enough.
Well Kidd has played 2 more seasons than Nash so it would not be fair to make that assumption.
Kidd is a lock
Ginobili is a lock - won everything that can be won: Olympic gold, NBA champ, Euroleague Champion, FiBA World Championship.
Horry is a lock too - one of most clutch players, in playoff time!!!
I'd bet anything that Horry doesn't make the HOF.
There was more talent that just that. Rodney Rodgers was a sixth-man award winner. Shawn Marion was an 18-11 player alongside Kidd. Kidd Also had a season with McDyess in his pre-injury prime. Throw in some role players like Tony Delk (double-digit scorer), Wesley Person (see Delk) and KJ (solid 12-4 guy alongside Kidd), Cedric Ceballos and Dennis Scott and you have far more talent than just Uncle Spliffy, King Rex, Googs and Manning. Not all at once, but if they were good enough to win 50 games season after season, why couldn't they win just one playoff series? , those Suns teams actually had defense. Unfortunately, they couldn't score in the halfcourt to save their life. Teams would play Kidd for the pass, knowing he'd klank more than 60% of his jumpers.
Like I said, statistically, Kidd is the better candidate. He's played longer, played bigger minutes for longer, played on teams with better talent for longer. Even on those crappy Mavericks teams, Kidd had Jim Jackson and Jamaal Mashburn. He's a much better rebounder and defensively, he's one of the best at his position. Still, what about FG%? 3FG%? FT%? What about all those years Kidd was hovering around 40% FG with 3+ turnovers a game and losing in the first round? What about overall playoff record? Nash is at 8-6 overall, Kidd at 8-10. Nash just one first-round exit, Kidd five.All-NBA First Team 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004
All-NBA Second Team 2003
(Nash: First Team 2005, 2006, Third Team 2003, 2004)
All-Defense First Team 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002
All-Defense Second Team 2003, 2004, 2005
(Nash:
5th All-Time APG average (Nash: 15th)
7th All-Time Assists (Nash: 30th)
Head-to-head, the only one there should be reservations about is Nash.
Agreed. Like I said, the only reason Nash is a lock is his MVPs. Statistically, Kidd is a lock. I just presented my opinion as to why some might have questions. Save for those two Finals runs in a bottomfeeder conference, his teams have barely made a noise in the playoffs. Nash's, in a tougher conference, have fared much better.They both will probably make it, but if Nash gets in and Kidd doesn't, they should burn the place down.
Now, I'll admit to some bias. I hated the Jason Kidd trade. I thought it was rediculously stupid. I didn't like what th Suns gave up (Finley, Cassell, AC Green, 1st), I didn't like Kidd and nor his potential for the Suns. They lost several picks with that trade and subsequent trades to rebuild a bench since they traded two starters and a rotation player for Kidd alone. With as well as the Suns draft, those picks were invalueable. That single trade set them back a decade. Twixt he, then his diminished trade value thanks to first round flops and wife-beatin' pops, what was acquired in return for him.
Kidd is certainly a hall of famer, but for the Suns, he was a bust. He was a ass punk who cheated on his wife, beat her, cursed out one-time teammates, coaches and GMs, got coaches fired, flipped off fans and thumbed his nose at an entire community after they warmly welcomed him back from anger counseling for HIS fist-meet-face moment with his wife.
The MVPs are really all that's put Nash over the top. Statistically he'd need another four or five years at a high rate of play to justify his induction or two or three with a le or two. We all know how unlikely the latter scenerio is, though.
Reggie Miller s going to be in the HOF easily, I believe. Though he didn't win any championships...like many great players who didn't, he was the face of one franchise for over 15 years. With him as the leader, the Pacers were one of the championship contenders year in and out in the East...just look at how they are faring without him as the leader of the team these days.
More so than that his 3 point shooting accuracy and records are not something to look away from.
is rodman even in the hall??
since he is n 10x better than big ben
Big Ben is nowhere near the level of a HOF player.
YOu don't get in the hall with stats like his.
DPOY or not, if you are not a serious offensive player, either in assists or points, you pretty much don't get in.
What assumption? I thought the article was to predicting who is in and out of the HoF at this point and time. If Kidd playing two more seasons makes it an unfair comparison, isn't that more of a reason why Kidd should be on the no-brainer list?
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