Kobe vs. Michael (adjusted)

**mavsfan1000** · 03-31-2007

The question is...why do they saturate these boards....oh I don't know, maybe Kobe's climbing the ladder...if you're too stupid to see that, than maybe put the NBA on ignore...because Kobe is the only true superstar and transcendent player they have right now.

I guess there are a lot of stupid people out there because many think Kobe is no where near Jordan along with being extremely overrated. Dirk, Kobe, and Nash are all great players. Go yourself btw.

**dirk4mvp** · 03-31-2007

Originally Posted by leemajors

what is notable was the last person to drop 50 on the rock-ettes - dana barros!

You sure?

**Warlord23** · 03-31-2007

SRJ, The numbers about who scored what % of their team's points is a misleading stat.

Let me give an example. Player A scores 30 PPG, his team scores 100 PPG. Player B scores 25 PPG while his team scores 75 PPG. By your argument Player A scored 30% of his team's points, Player B scored 33% of his team's points. Correct?

Now let's look at a few other stats in the same scenario. Suppose Player A scored his 30 PPG by making 15 FGM out of 25 FGA. Player B scored his 25 PPG scoring 12 FGM out of 30 FGA. Suppose each team took 80 FGA overall.

Now because Player B took more shots (30 FGA), the rest of his team ended up taking lesser shots (50 FGA). Player A took 25 shots, thus allowing his teammates to shoot more (55 FGA). Because his teammates got more attempts, they scored more. Player B's teammates shot less, and so scored less. Although this ended up reducing Player A's percentage of points scored, his team was far more efficient and everybody ended up scoring more. Player B hogged the ball more, resulting in his teammates not getting enough opportunities, and thus boosting Player B's % numbers.

See where I'm going? The stats you posted are distorted because they don't take efficiency into account. An efficient player will take less shots to get his points, and his teammates also get to see more of the ball. The player of lower efficiency will take too many shots to get his numbers, and his teammates will not get enough opportunity to contribute.

Let's now complete this argument by looking at MJ (1991) and Kobe (2006) both at 28 years of age.
MJ shot the ball at 53.9%, Kobe shot it at 45.0%.
MJ had 22.4 FGA per game, Kobe took 27.2 FGA per game.
MJ's teammates got 64.4 FGA per game, Kobe's teammates got 53.4 FGA per game
MJ's PER rating was 31.63 (5th best in NBA history), Kobe's PER rating was 28.02 (41st best in NBA history)

Bottomline: MJ might have scored less % of his team's points, but he did it at a way higher efficiency with far less FGA. That actually gave his teammates more FGA opportunities, so they ended up scoring more. What that means is the "% of team's points scored" is a BS stat, and cannot be used for comparison of 2 players.

**SRJ** · 03-31-2007

Originally Posted by Warlord23

SRJ, The numbers about who scored what % of their team's points is a misleading stat.

Let me give an example. Player A scores 30 PPG, his team scores 100 PPG. Player B scores 25 PPG while his team scores 75 PPG. By your argument Player A scored 30% of his team's points, Player B scored 33% of his team's points. Correct?

Now let's look at a few other stats in the same scenario. Suppose Player A scored his 30 PPG by making 15 FGM out of 25 FGA. Player B scored his 25 PPG scoring 12 FGM out of 30 FGA. Suppose each team took 80 FGA overall.

Now because Player B took more shots (30 FGA), the rest of his team ended up taking lesser shots (50 FGA). Player A took 25 shots, thus allowing his teammates to shoot more (55 FGA). Because his teammates got more attempts, they scored more. Player B's teammates shot less, and so scored less. Although this ended up reducing Player A's percentage of points scored, his team was far more efficient and everybody ended up scoring more. Player B hogged the ball more, resulting in his teammates not getting enough opportunities, and thus boosting Player B's % numbers.

See where I'm going? The stats you posted are distorted because they don't take efficiency into account. An efficient player will take less shots to get his points, and his teammates also get to see more of the ball. The player of lower efficiency will take too many shots to get his numbers, and his teammates will not get enough opportunity to contribute.

Let's now complete this argument by looking at MJ (1991) and Kobe (2006) both at 28 years of age.
MJ shot the ball at 53.9%, Kobe shot it at 45.0%.
MJ had 22.4 FGA per game, Kobe took 27.2 FGA per game.
MJ's teammates got 64.4 FGA per game, Kobe's teammates got 53.4 FGA per game
MJ's PER rating was 31.63 (5th best in NBA history), Kobe's PER rating was 28.02 (41st best in NBA history)

Bottomline: MJ might have scored less % of his team's points, but he did it at a way higher efficiency with far less FGA. That actually gave his teammates more FGA opportunities, so they ended up scoring more. What that means is the "% of team's points scored" is a BS stat, and cannot be used for comparison of 2 players.

1) I never claimed % of points scored was completely accurate, only more accurate than simply comparing one scoring average to another.

2) In the third section below, I did produce the adjusted 2FG%, which showed that MJ was a more efficient shooter.

3) This analysis actually reinforces the perception that MJ was better, which I already believed before taking a longer look at this. I absolutely did not rig this to weigh in favor of either player.

4) I'm not saying there isn't a better method to compare scorers of different eras, but I don't know of/can't think of a better method. Again, that's comparing point production, not overall efficiency - I wouldn't have even argued that Jordan was more efficient.

5) Percentage of points scored is not a BS stat, it just has its limitations - as all statistics do. Assists don't measure how many passes became blown assists thanks to a bad play by a teammate. Blocks don't measure unblocked shots which the defender obviously forced the shooter to miss anyway. FG% doesn't tell you where all those shots were taken from. 3FG% doesn't tell you how many times the shot was contested. So why are all of those stats accepted without question?

**Warlord23** · 03-31-2007

Originally Posted by SRJ

1) I never claimed % of points scored was completely accurate, only more accurate than simply comparing one scoring average to another.

2) In the third section below, I did produce the adjusted 2FG%, which showed that MJ was a more efficient shooter.

3) This analysis actually reinforces the perception that MJ was better, which I already believed before taking a longer look at this. I absolutely did not rig this to weigh in favor of either player.

4) I'm not saying there isn't a better method to compare scorers of different eras, but I don't know of/can't think of a better method. Again, that's comparing point production, not overall efficiency - I wouldn't have even argued that Jordan was more efficient.

5) Percentage of points scored is not a BS stat, it just has its limitations - as all statistics do. Assists don't measure how many passes became blown assists thanks to a bad play by a teammate. Blocks don't measure unblocked shots which the defender obviously forced the shooter to miss anyway. FG% doesn't tell you where all those shots were taken from. 3FG% doesn't tell you how many times the shot was contested. So why are all of those stats accepted without question?

I agree that you were comparing point production alone, not efficiency. But I still believe that % of points scored is not a good enough stat. I think PPFGA (Points per FGA) or PPP (Points per possession) are better stats to compare scorers across eras. [# of possessions in PPP = # of FGA + 0.5 * (# of FTA)]

To show what kind of conclusions can be drawn by % of points scored, let us compare Kareem Abdul Jabbar in 1971-72 vs Allen Iverson in 2001-02.

Kareem scored 34.8 PPG at an astounding 57.4 FG % (played 81 games)
Iverson scored 31.4 PPG at a meagre 39.8% (only played 62 games though)

The 2001-02 Sixers scored around 91 PPG per game, while Kareem's Bucks scored 114.6 PPG. So Iverson has a bigger share (34.5%) of his team's scoring compared to Kareem (30.3%). Going by the "% of team points" Iverson would be rated a superior scorer than the Captain. Of course, the fact that Iverson took 3 FGA per game more than Kareem while scoring 3 PPG lesser isn't accounted for.

Now let's do Points per possession to compare the two:
Kareem's PPP is 1.18, Iverson's PPP is 0.96

I'd say PPP seems more accurate, wouldn't you?

**monosylab1k** · 04-01-2007

Originally Posted by SRJ

Well, I'm convinced! You insulted AND cussed!

Seriously, what kind of mental defective gets this angry on behalf of the greatest player of all time, a multi-multi-millionaire at that? I hope, monosylab1k, you actually ARE Michael Jordan - I'd hate to think some pasty white dork with a pube mustache gets this goddamned defensive over this.

Did I hit a nerve, or are you just really ing stupid?

We've had 4 other threads with this exact same bull . Every time, nobody provides any type of sound argument whatsoever to prove that Kobe is anywhere close to Jordan's level. If you wanted to continue with your less little campaign for Kobe, then at least have the in decency to do it on one of the threads already provided for it you dumbass, that way I can properly ignore it.

Now unless you've got something decent to add around here, then get the out. You're officially the most pathetically idiotic on this board.

**monosylab1k** · 04-01-2007

Originally Posted by JamStone

Or maybe those who are just so disgusted with the comparison should just ignore topics that talk about it.

Difficult when a new "kobe vs. jordan" pops up every in' day. it's obvious trolling and whoring for attention. if he really wanted to debate this, he would have posted it in one of the other 1000 or so kobe vs. jordan thread, rather than create a new one.

**sabar** · 04-01-2007

I've never seen someone so offended at a thread before.

Ever.

In my entire time on the internet.

We haven't had four other threads on this, we have had four other threads of hijacking and insulting like you are doing right now, deviating from a good subject of debate.

Moving back to the topic at hand. Statistical analysis has been done many times which will always put MJ over the top, as he just plainly had better stats in nearly every category, sometimes by a large margin. While not the end-all statistic, the PER has been a solid stat on which to generally show someone's level, and it's clearly evident that MJ is on a different level.

While Kobe can approach and maybe even surpass MJ in every statistical category, he is doing it later than Jordan did it at. Jordan was able to get consistent and play at a high level young and through all his years, if it happens with Kobe, it will be on the tail-end of his career.

I don't think you can say Jordan has anything over Kobe in intangibles. MJ wasn't exactly the nicest guy in the world like people make him out to be. One other stat I would like to see is clutch-factor -- shots attempted in the final minute while trailing by 4 or less points against shots made.

**Kori Ellis** · 04-01-2007

Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

Hard to do when they completely saturate the boards.

Not really. The threads have les. Don't click on them.

**jdalive2004** · 04-01-2007

MJ 6-time Finals MVP
MJ 5-time NBA MVP

Kobe-0

Nuff Said.

**Cry Havoc** · 04-01-2007

Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

Not really. The threads have les. Don't click on them.

I'd prefer just to show trolls (and any real posters) that when you have watched basketball for more than 5 years as some people here seem (not) to have, there is no doubt who is better. From a spectator's perspective who's watched them both play, AND from a statistical perspective, Jordan is dominant. Kobe is nowhere close.

Hopefully then the comparisons will stop.

I guess really I'm just pissed at ESPN.com for posting such an incredibly stupid article (on their front page, no less!) to stoke the fires of this inane debate in the first place. That doesn't change the fact that seeing spurstalk clogged with spam annoys the out of me.

Originally Posted by Medvedenko

The question is...why do they saturate these boards....oh I don't know, maybe Kobe's climbing the ladder...if you're too stupid to see that, than maybe put the NBA on ignore...because Kobe is the only true superstar and transcendent player they have right now.

Yeah, you know what? You're right. I'm going to just stop watching basketball because there seems to be a growing demographic of individuals who think they know hoops better than I do because they've watched it since the Lakers went on their three-peat run. I'll stop watching because these "fans" are so bold as to open their mouth and attempt to establish conjectural rationality (this is where SRJ's thread is different, although he did already post his stats in another thread... sigh) for why Kobe is the greatest player of all time.

<< I put the rolleyes there to ensure you understood that this is all sarcasm, because I'm not entirely positive you'd pick up on it.

That would be much akin to me stepping into a futbol forum and telling all the older fans there how much better Landon Donovan is than Pele or Maradona. Just because I could probably get you to believe me, and have a ton of new American soccer/futbol fans supporting that idea, doesn't mean we're right. It means we're completely incompetent when it comes to the history of the game.

Now honestly. Call me names all you want. Hurl insults at me. It makes you look so much wiser, and bolsters your argument considerably.

**SRJ** · 04-01-2007

Originally Posted by monosylab1k

We've had 4 other threads with this exact same bull . Every time, nobody provides any type of sound argument whatsoever to prove that Kobe is anywhere close to Jordan's level. If you wanted to continue with your less little campaign for Kobe, then at least have the in decency to do it on one of the threads already provided for it you dumbass, that way I can properly ignore it.

Now unless you've got something decent to add around here, then get the out. You're officially the most pathetically idiotic on this board.

Yep, you've got one of a life there.

**monosylab1k** · 04-01-2007

Originally Posted by SRJ

Yep, you've got one of a life there.

So says the one that has posted pages upon pages of "stats" that don't even support his own argument. You spin your BS numbers almost as well as Hollinger. Great job "debating" there, dip .

I've had plenty of "civilized" debate on this topic, but it's just gotten incredibly tiresome. This constant Kobe suckfest that's been going on in the NBA forums is just insane. He's great, but he's not Jordan. Does he have the chance to be at Jordan's level? Yes, but he's nowhere close to it yet. any comparison, any stat, any ANYTHING will never put him at Jordan's level. Pages upon pages of threads have already proven it. And now we've got another one.

**SRJ** · 04-01-2007

Originally Posted by monosylab1k

So says the one that has posted pages upon pages of "stats" that don't even support his own argument. You spin your BS numbers almost as well as Hollinger. Great job "debating" there, dip .

I've had plenty of "civilized" debate on this topic, but it's just gotten incredibly tiresome. This constant Kobe suckfest that's been going on in the NBA forums is just insane. He's great, but he's not Jordan. Does he have the chance to be at Jordan's level? Yes, but he's nowhere close to it yet. any comparison, any stat, any ANYTHING will never put him at Jordan's level. Pages upon pages of threads have already proven it. And now we've got another one.

Look asshat, I've already elaborated upon what I've said below. I don't need to do it again just to satisfy a single-cell rage-addict like you.

You want a deeper explanation of what I wrote, then read below. If you have any specific questions about what I wrote, then ask. But don't think you can just put up something insulting and profane and think I'm going to scramble around to try and mollify you. I don't work that way.

BTW, your doing a horrible job ignoring things you don't like. My guess is that you haven't gotten mad enough today.

**Obstructed_View** · 04-01-2007

Originally Posted by monosylab1k

Seriously these Kobe vs. Jordan comparisons need to just end. Any ing re who thinks that Kobe is anywhere near Jordan's level should never be taken seriously on these boards ever again. Talent-wise, Kobe is definitely on Jordan's level. But Jordan completely eclipses Kobe in every other aspect of the game. Don't even bring this ing stupid bull in argument to the table anymore, people. Every time anybody tried to put up empty ing numbers to put Kobe on Jordan's level, that has been swatted out to half-court, and it will keep happening.

Word. This is weak. I'll say Kobe's a better scorer than Jordan at this point in his career. He's got a ways to go since Jordan averaged five points more per game and was winning championships against much better compe ion.

**picnroll** · 04-01-2007

Originally Posted by JamStone

Jordan's Washington Wizards teammates hated him. He was only respected by his Chicago teammates because they were scared of him. It wasn't respect AND fear. It was respect OUT OF fear. It has been do ented that he was a horrible teammate, and his best leadership quality was leading by example.

I hear Patton was a real SOB too. You want to win the war or a popularity contest?

**Medvedenko** · 04-01-2007

I got these clips from a guy on Lakerground (Lakersanity)

**monosylab1k** · 04-01-2007

Originally Posted by SRJ

Look asshat, I've already elaborated upon what I've said below. I don't need to do it again just to satisfy a single-cell rage-addict like you.

You want a deeper explanation of what I wrote, then read below. If you have any specific questions about what I wrote, then ask. But don't think you can just put up something insulting and profane and think I'm going to scramble around to try and mollify you. I don't work that way.

BTW, your doing a horrible job ignoring things you don't like. My guess is that you haven't gotten mad enough today.

You're doing an even worse job defending Kobe. your "evidence" is the most convoluted pile of elephant i've ever looked at.

And hey, maybe i took it too far with the insults. Really. If your tender little vagina can't handle a few dirty words, i apologize.

the only people around here that dare say Kobe is better than Jordan are Pistons fans (biased), Lakers fans (really biased), and you (re ed). Don't scramble and mollify me, just admit that you're wrong when you're in the face of insurmountable evidence against you.

**monosylab1k** · 04-01-2007

Originally Posted by picnroll

I hear Patton was a real SOB too. You want to win the war or a popularity contest?

post of the century.

**King** · 04-01-2007

Not getting into the Kobe v. MJ debate - but I just wanted to say that it's probably best not to play the 'MJ didn't disrupt the locker room with infidelity to his wife' card - as was played early on in this thread.

It's not a big secret that he wasn't faithful to his wife. Not by a longshot.

**Medvedenko** · 04-01-2007

Ahh..memories...Shaq fouls out...Kobe takes over in OT. 2000 Finals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVa6C...elated&search=

He's been ballin' a long time boys... a long time.

**monosylab1k** · 04-02-2007

Originally Posted by King

Not getting into the Kobe v. MJ debate - but I just wanted to say that it's probably best not to play the 'MJ didn't disrupt the locker room with infidelity to his wife' card - as was played early on in this thread.

It's not a big secret that he wasn't faithful to his wife. Not by a longshot.

Name me an NBA basketball player that's faithful to his wife and I'll show you an NBA player that's full of and duped you into thinking it. Doug Christie doesn't count because anybody that whipped isn't a real man.

All NBA players cheat on their wives. Not all of them go to Colorado and a girl so hard her pussy bleeds while he chokes her, then asks to on her face, and finishes off the trifecta by throwing their teammate under the bus when questioned by police.

**Medvedenko** · 04-02-2007

Hey mono...chill the out....man, bringing up the rape case ad nauseum is trite, seriously. The girl had 3, cout them 3 different types of semen on her panties...maybe she was a freak. Regardless, I say AC Green...still a virgin.....
Oh, and Mono, once again....chill out.

**monosylab1k** · 04-02-2007

Originally Posted by Medvedenko

Hey mono...chill the out....man, bringing up the rape case ad nauseum is trite, seriously. The girl had 3, cout them 3 different types of semen on her panties...maybe she was a freak. Regardless, I say AC Green...still a virgin.....
Oh, and Mono, once again....chill out.

I didn't say anything about rape.

I merely stated the facts of what happened in Colorado via Kobe's own account of things.

The fact that Jordan cheated on his wife was brought in like it could destroy his character. I pointed out that every NBA player cheats on his wife, some more that others. And then there's what Kobe did.

Your feathers got ruffled over simple facts. Maybe you're the one that needs to chill out.

**Medvedenko** · 04-02-2007

Yeah, all of the NBA players cheat...not many of them have 4 months where they averaged 40 points per game...oh yeah, only 1 Wilt.

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