Best powerforwards in league now...

[endrity]

actually this season Diaw starts most of the time at PF, and before the whole D'Antoni-Nash era in phoenix Marion always played at SF. Plus he really has a SF kind of game anyway, Barkley was short but he dominated inside as well as being able to shoot from the outside. My list (for accomplishments this year only, not a career list):

Dirk
TD
Amare
KG
Boozer
Bosh
Brand
J O'Neal
Al Jefferson
Nene

p.s1 Gasol to me is much more of a center, even though he is listed at C. Duncan has more range than him, and a lot of people would claim Duncan is a C himself.
p.s2 I live in Michigan, and I can't put Rasheed there just because of potential. For every 20-10 game he has three 7 pts 5 reb, 3-10Fg games. On talent alone he would be in the top 5.
p.s3 I understand that someone might question the last two selections, but if you look at how those two guys have been playing since the new year you would understand. It will probably be until next year for people to start talking about them but Jefferson and Nene are coming, and by next year people will be talking about All-Star potential about both of them.

[JMarkJohns]

I wouldn't say Marion deserves to be mentioned among power forwards because he's not one. If you were to say the best "fours" or the est players to play the PF spot, then perhaps.

Also, Marion has guarded every position but center this year. He puts up great stats regardless, but to be honest, he doesn't have the head for defending the perimeter. He bites of up-fakes, gets lost, struggles to stay in front. He does a reasonably good job, but he's by no means a defensive stopper when defending a PG (like Parker, Terry, Arenas) or SG (Kobe, Wade). He is, however, a very good defensive player in the post or mid-range. I know forwards can back him down, but he's much more consistant and imapctful defending SFs and PFs.

He's certainly one of the top-10 players at the 4 in the League. I'd probably say overall, he's top-7. Few can log the stats he does. At least in the regular season. You make the casee that he doesn't draw double teams, thus why he scores. Well, he doesn't have but one or two plays called for him per game, unlike many of those on your list who get over a dozen per. I'd say what he does in passing is as, if not more impressive than what some on that list do on purpose.

18/22 ppg, 9/11 rpg, 2ish steals, 2ish blocks on improved shooting. I'd say on a best player list, no lower than 8, but I don't think he's a power forward, and therefore shouldn't be on this list.

1. Duncan
2. Garnett (great rebounder, good defender)
3. Dirk (more perimeter than power, but still very good)
4. Brand
5. Bosh
6. Boozer
7. O'Neal (if best player, Marion goes here)
8. Wallace
9. Randolph
10. Gasol (if best player, Odom is ahead of Gasol)

Just missing: D. Howard (not yet. Not enough offense, nor consistency)

[samikeyp]

Dirk
TD

Last year I would have agreed with this....IMO Duncan has earned it back this season.

[Cry Havoc]

How any Spurs fan could put Dirk ahead of Duncan is beyond me. You guys need to seriously stop rooting for San Antonio.

Duncan is the most dominant PF in the game and it's not close. No one in the entire NBA influences the ball on every possession of the game more than Duncan (except maybe Shaq, when he's not playing like he's 50). Dirk is undoubtedly as good or better on the offensive end, but Duncan is light-years beyond him in defense.

Duncan is one of the top 5 defenders in the league every year. And every post-season, he's one of the best offensive weapons, drawing double-teams all game.

Seriously, if you're a Mavs fan, I have no problem with you putting Dirk first. If you're a Spurs fan however, you're out of your freaking mind.

[mavs>spurs2]

How any Spurs fan could put Dirk ahead of Duncan is beyond me. You guys need to seriously stop rooting for San Antonio.

Duncan is the most dominant PF in the game and it's not close. No one in the entire NBA influences the ball on every possession of the game more than Duncan (except maybe Shaq, when he's not playing like he's 50). Dirk is undoubtedly as good or better on the offensive end, but Duncan is light-years beyond him in defense.

Duncan is one of the top 5 defenders in the league every year. And every post-season, he's one of the best offensive weapons, drawing double-teams all game.

Seriously, if you're a Mavs fan, I have no problem with you putting Dirk first. If you're a Spurs fan however, you're out of your freaking mind.

I'd also put Duncan ahead of Dirk, but I wouldn't say its not even close. Dirk is better offensively, but Duncan more than makes up for it on defense.

[mardigan]

I'd also put Duncan ahead of Dirk, but I wouldn't say its not even close. Dirk is better offensively, but Duncan more than makes up for it on defense.

Dirk can shoot better, but he isnt better offensively. I would agree, its not even close. Duncan affects the game on both sides, not just one as Dirk does. Duncan is also just as skilled as Dirk on offense, just in a different way. No one outside of Shaq commands the doubles that Tim does, and while Dirk may be a dominant shooter, I like my 7 footers with post moves

[FromWayDowntown]

I'd agree that Duncan is a better overall player than Dirk at this point, largely because the two players are at least close offensively -- although very, very different offensive players -- but I can't yet buy that Dirk is remotely in Duncan's realm as a defender. Dirk has undoubtedly improved as a defensive player, but you're comparing a guy who's just learning to play some defense (and a guy who still tends to play defense with his arms and not with his feet) with one of the dominant defenders to ever play the game. That gap, IMO, remains huge. And that difference, IMO, makes Duncan the superior all-around player.

Few players in the history of the NBA have had the ability to change the game -- or to dominate it -- on both ends of the floor like Tim Duncan. I sometimes think that it will take his retirement for some people to recognize just how great he truly is. Duncan is truly a guy who can be measured now against the longer history of the NBA; I'm not sure that the same can be said yet of any of his contemporaries, other than maybe Kevin Garnett.

[endrity]

Look I think Duncan is the top PF of all time, I thought for a 4 year stretch 2002-2005 he was the best player in the league period, wayyyy better than Shaq. I completely understand how good Duncan is, and what his place in history is. However, I think Duncan is not quite the defender he used to be. Before you all tell me how good he looked against the Suns, and he was great, I am going to point out that rarely do I see him on the team's best offensive player and I believe he has lost quite a bit of speed compared to 02-03. On offense, you guys should know better than anyone the issues that Dirk causes for many teams. He is not just a great offensive player, and extremely efficient, but the main problem he causes is that he throws other team's strategy off the window because of the cross matching that teams do when they defend him. His impact on offense is way more than just his already incredible stats. I personally think this year has really been his best, and if you think he already had surpassed Duncan last year than you would have a hard time to convince me that Duncan has somehow become even better than that. I personally love John Hollinger's work, and as he wrote, if the top two players on the MVP ballot are not Dirk and Duncan someone has quite some explaining to do so I will leave it at that. If Dirk gets a ring or two in the next couple of year, I believe that when history is written Duncan will be the top PF of all time, but Dirk will not be much behind, in fact he might be right behind him at the number 2 slot.
p.s Sooner or later someone in the media will have to write an article to debunk the myth that Kevin Garnett is a great defender. I will not go into it now, but for his athletic abilities he has never been better than average. Sheed, Dirk, Duncan, Amare have all light him up in the past. He is if anything a good help defender. And has an extremely limited offensive repertoire consisting on basically two moves, the baseline turnaround and the elbow jumper. That's it. That is why he can't take over, he is extremely predictable.

[Kobulingam]

... If Dirk gets a ring or two in the next couple of year, I believe that when history is written Duncan will be the top PF of all time, but Dirk will not be much behind, in fact he might be right behind him at the number 2 slot. ...

DAMN. you high fa sho

[endrity]

well considering that many have Barkley and Malone in that number 2 spot, even though both never won a le, and Dirk's game is a little more complete I wouldn't too surprised to see that

[Cry Havoc]

However, I think Duncan is not quite the defender he used to be.

I guess that means every other Spurs player should be on the All-Defensive team then, because once again they are the best defensive team in the league. Elson, Parker, and Finley must just be defensive terrors and we haven't noticed.

[endrity]

Well first parker is quite a good defender, so is ginobili, so is bowen and elson plays pretty hard. However, a good defense needs a good system more than anything else. The mavs have improved vastly on D not because they had great defensive players ( i think only Damp/Diop and Harris are really defensive specialists) but because of a system around them. Plus come on, a lot of Spurs fans have been mentioning that throughout the year. I am not the first one to say it, it's just that I am a Mavs fan and that irritates you. Duncan is still really good on D, as shown by the Suns game, however I don't think he is what he used to be.

[Cry Havoc]

I am not the first one to say it, it's just that I am a Mavs fan and that irritates you. Duncan is still really good on D, as shown by the Suns game, however I don't think he is what he used to be.

No, actually what irritates me is that you offer vague criticisms of a player without a single quantifiable reason why. "You think" he's not as good? That's it? I "think" he's smarter and more efficient with his moments to make stops, which is not always necessary in the reg. season. He's been relatively unhealthy over the past two playoff runs and still dominated -- he destroyed Detroit on one leg in the Finals.

I'll take a Duncan who's two years older and (knock on wood) completely healthy come playoff time than a slightly younger and hobbled version. Even when he was going off on the Mavs last year you could see he wasn't 100% at times.

[FromWayDowntown]

I've watched Duncan's defense since the day that he entered the league, and I don't think he's lost a damned thing as a defender. He's probably better now than he was in his first few seasons because he's the most accountable Spur on the defensive end and he doesn't have another all-time defender like David Robinson back there to provide a security blanket.

It's ridiculous to argue that Tim somehow isn't a great defender because he doesn't always guard an opponent's best offensive threat all night. Primarily, that's a testament to just how valuable Timmy is to his team -- his coach is understandably unwilling to expose Tim to the possibility of foul trouble in the early stages of a game. More importantly, though, on most nights, when it really matters, Tim ends up defending that guy (to the extent that such players are bigs) and on more nights than not, does the job defensively.

Dirk Nowitzki is a freakish player. And he's a great player. But I don't see that he'll ever be considered the 2nd greatest PF to ever play the game if he retires with one ring. For all of his offensive prowess, he can't hold a candle to guys like Malone or Barkley as defenders or, perhaps more importantly, as rebounders.

And the notion that KG is an overrated player or defender is just asinine. When KG's done, some people are going to look up and say "Damn, he did that?" Dude's a no-brainer first ballot hall of famer and if he didn't play in the exact same era as Tim Duncan, he'd be the guy drawing comparisons to Barkley and Malone.

[endrity]

agree to disagree, i wrote way too much on this thread so I will stop at that. However if you want an unbiased view of dirk in comparison to barkley and malone check bill simmons' article from the playoffs last year. He said Dirk is the 'most complete forward' to play the game in the last 20 years. And he called Malone a fake. this all coming from a guy who has never been a huge fan of Dirk or the Mavs.
EDIT: I think you severely underrate Dirk as a rebounder, just look at the boxscores from the playoffs last year

[FromWayDowntown]

I can't imagine how anyone with half a brain could conclude that Dirk is "a more complete player" than Tim Duncan . . . . or Karl Malone.

[mardigan]

I can't imagine how anyone with half a brain could conclude that Dirk is "a more complete player" than Tim Duncan . . . . or Karl Malone.

Or Charles Barkley

[Mavs Man]

1 Dirk
2 Nowitski
3 the sexy german guy
4 #41 for Dallas
5 Croshere
6 that guy who plays for the silver and black team #21
7 the tall black guy who has the wolf on his jersey
8 God it's ing hot in this suit

[Leetonidas]

I'll go with this...

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Elton Brand
5. Chris Bosh
6. Zach Randolph
7. Carlos Boozer
8. Jermaine O'Neal
9. Rasheed Wallace
10. Pau Gasol

[endrity]

I can't imagine how anyone with half a brain could conclude that Dirk is "a more complete player" than Tim Duncan . . . . or Karl Malone.

very simple actually, at least in regards to Malone. Karl made his living at least in his MVP years, by hitting that 16-18 foot jumper and he was not consistent with that, at least not in the Finals. Dirk is much better than that. Karl was almost a liability in crunch time, Dirk is clutch and spurs fans should be the last to disagree with that. Barkley, was not a great defender. He was ok at best. Even his best team, the Suns of 93 looked to outscore people. His best asset was that he was a 6-4 PF that while ruggged inside, could also beat you from the outside. To me that sounds exactly like a poor man's Dirk. Both of these guys were multidimensional for their time, yet no one matches Dirk's versatility. And if he wins the MVP and the le this year, he will also overpass their career achievements. Don't forget that Dirk is only 28, and now he really is in his prime. For the next 2-3 years, he will have a chance to really write his legacy. However this was a thread on best PF now, not on career achievements, and I made it clear on my first post. I think Dirk is best PF now. Career wise he is under Duncan and KG until april (when he wins his first MVP).

[DarrinS]

Sheed is one of the few people that defends Duncan well.


IMO, Marion is not a top 10 PF, but he does play good defense. He's especially effective at frustrating Dirk.

[FromWayDowntown]

very simple actually, at least in regards to Malone. Karl made his living at least in his MVP years, by hitting that 16-18 foot jumper and he was not consistent with that, at least not in the Finals.

Yup. Dude just shot 52% from the floor and averaged 25 ppg for the duration of his 19 year career. That's pretty inconsistent offensive play. And, while I can't believe that I'm defending him this vociferously, Hot Karl was much, much more than a 16-18' jumpshooter. You don't end up 1st all-time in FTA and FTM by making a living shooting 16-18 foot jumpshots -- though it might be hard to convince some Mavericks fans of the logical disconnect there.

Dirk is much better than that.

Yeah -- I can readily see how someone might argue that a guy who is a 47% shooter and averages 22 ppg for his career would be "much better" than that guy.

Karl was almost a liability in crunch time, Dirk is clutch and spurs fans should be the last to disagree with that.

Malone did far more damage to the psyches of Spurs fans than Dirk Nowitzki has ever done. At least the Spurs have beaten the Dirk-led Mavericks when it counted. And the one time Dirk did get over, he and his team very nearly choked away a 20 point lead and 3-1 series lead. The Spurs were never that close to beating the Malone-led Jazz, largely because Karl Malone was outstanding from tip to buzzer in those series.

Barkley, was not a great defender. He was ok at best. Even his best team, the Suns of 93 looked to outscore people. His best asset was that he was a 6-4 PF that while ruggged inside, could also beat you from the outside. To me that sounds exactly like a poor man's Dirk.

A guy who shot 54% for his career, averaged more ppg (to this point at least) than Nowitzki, and put up 15 consecutive seasons of 10+ RPG is a poor man's anything? Give me a break. You make Barkley --clearly one of the greatest players to ever play the game -- seem like some sort of underdog overachiever. That's patently ridiculous.

Both of these guys were multidimensional for their time, yet no one matches Dirk's versatility.

Both of those guys were multidimensional for all-time. They are among the better combinations of scorers and rebounders to ever play the game. And while you castigate their defense -- implicitly, at least -- from a purely defensive standpoint, a guy like Malone (who made First Team All-Defense 3 times in his career) looks like Bill Russell compared to a player like Dirk Nowitzki.

Until Dirk plays something resembling great defense, I don't see how he can be considered more versatile than any great scorer who is willing to defend. He might be a more versatile offensive player than some of these other guys, but that doesn't make him a more complete or versatile player than comparables who actually get it done on the defensive end -- by doing more than just rebounding.

And if he wins the MVP and the le this year, he will also overpass their career achievements.

Assuming that both of those things come true, he'll have one fewer MVP than Malone and as many as Barkley. I don't buy the argument that a single le can define individual greatness in any meaningful respect. Karl Malone is one of history's greatest players even though his teams never won a le. The same is true of Barkley. And, undoubtedly, each was impacted by being a total contemporary of Michael Jordan -- not an insignificant historical footnote. Does Tim Duncan look better, in part, because of his championships? Sure. But it would be foolish, I think, to let les alone define Tim in historical comparison to guys like Malone and Barkley, because Tim's teams never had to deal with Jordan in his prime in the Finals. I still think that Tim is historically better than Malone and Barkley because he is as good offensively and from a rebounding standpoint than those guys were, but is a dominant defender. But that comparison has very little to do with championships won.

Don't forget that Dirk is only 28, and now he really is in his prime. For the next 2-3 years, he will have a chance to really write his legacy.

Sure enough. I don't know, however, of a single player in NBA history who defined himself among the top 5 to ever play a position (which seems to be your argument viz. Dirk) by a good 3-5 year run.

However this was a thread on best PF now, not on career achievements, and I made it clear on my first post. I think Dirk is best PF now. Career wise he is under Duncan and KG until april (when he wins his first MVP).

I still think that Duncan is the more complete player right now because nobody in the league matches Tim's combination of offensive ability and defensive dominance. Nobody.

And even with an MVP, I still don't think that Dirk's career will have surpassed Garnett's. I can't imagine a scenario, short of a quantum change in the way that Dirk plays on the defensive end of the court, that would ever convince me that Dirk for his career was a better player than Garnett was for his career.

[Cry Havoc]

very simple actually, at least in regards to Malone. Karl made his living at least in his MVP years, by hitting that 16-18 foot jumper and he was not consistent with that, at least not in the Finals. Dirk is much better than that. Karl was almost a liability in crunch time, Dirk is clutch and spurs fans should be the last to disagree with that. Barkley, was not a great defender. He was ok at best. Even his best team, the Suns of 93 looked to outscore people. His best asset was that he was a 6-4 PF that while ruggged inside, could also beat you from the outside. To me that sounds exactly like a poor man's Dirk. Both of these guys were multidimensional for their time, yet no one matches Dirk's versatility. And if he wins the MVP and the le this year, he will also overpass their career achievements. Don't forget that Dirk is only 28, and now he really is in his prime. For the next 2-3 years, he will have a chance to really write his legacy. However this was a thread on best PF now, not on career achievements, and I made it clear on my first post. I think Dirk is best PF now.

Dirk is a 10 on offense while Duncan -might- be a 9 (though with the double teams he draws you could consider him a 10). Meanwhile, Duncan is a 10 on defense while Dirk MIGHT be a 7, but is probably hovering around the 6.5 range.

Calling Dirk a more complete PF than Duncan is in the same vein of thought that likens Kobe Bryant to Michael Jordan. Defense gets zero respect in today's league because it isn't flashy. Kobe is flashy on offense, perhaps as much so as Jordan was, so let's summarily dismiss MJ's contributions on the other side of the court.

Dirk is a pretty flashy player. Duncan is not. That's the difference, and that's what bothers people so much when the Spurs win les, because they don't let the other team make spectacular plays. They shut down the opposition, and in doing so people think it's a poorly played contest, when in reality it's a defensive mastery. They scrum, make tough plays in the post (something I've rarely seen Dirk attempt). And so it is with Duncan. There is not a single player in the league right now that would make a PG think twice about driving into the lane besides Shaq, and with the speed he moves at these days, Duncan is the best post defender in the game.

Say all you want about Dirk's slashing, his great jump shot, his "improving" defense. If you even try to offer a single reason why Dirk is a more complete player than Duncan, you haven't been around the sport long. The article by Simmons is ridiculous. That's like calling Nash the "most complete" point guard in the history of the league. Sure, some people will buy it because Nash is hot right now, and he makes incredibly flashy plays. He looks unstoppable, until any top 10 PG comes along and makes him and the entire Suns team look absolutely lost on defense. Fans who saw Magic rise to prominence just smile and nod and say, yep, Nash is a pretty good little point guard.

Dirk is a pretty good power forward.

It's funny though, because those two "complete" players have 0 Finals MVPs and 0 les between them. Yet they're supposed to be the best at each position? I guess it's not surprising. Young fans equate Sportscenter highlights to quality basketball. Older fans are a bit more cogniscient of the fact that Defense never gets credit yet always takes the le home.

Career wise he is under Duncan and KG until april (when he wins his first MVP), in which case he'll only be three rings, three finals MVPs, an MVP, nine all-NBA defensive team selections, three all-NBA selections, and a whole of a lot of blocks and rebounds under Duncan.

Knew something was off about that statement, so I fixed it for you.

[mabber]

Dirk is a 10 on offense while Duncan -might- be a 9 (though with the double teams he draws you could consider him a 10). Meanwhile, Duncan is a 10 on defense while Dirk MIGHT be a 7, but is probably hovering around the 6.5 range.

Calling Dirk a more complete PF than Duncan is in the same vein of thought that likens Kobe Bryant to Michael Jordan. Defense gets zero respect in today's league because it isn't flashy. Kobe is flashy on offense, perhaps as much so as Jordan was, so let's summarily dismiss MJ's contributions on the other side of the court.

Dirk is a pretty flashy player. Duncan is not. That's the difference, and that's what bothers people so much when the Spurs win les, because they don't let the other team make spectacular plays. They shut down the opposition, and in doing so people think it's a poorly played contest, when in reality it's a defensive mastery. They scrum, make tough plays in the post (something I've rarely seen Dirk attempt). And so it is with Duncan. There is not a single player in the league right now that would make a PG think twice about driving into the lane besides Shaq, and with the speed he moves at these days, Duncan is the best post defender in the game.

Say all you want about Dirk's slashing, his great jump shot, his "improving" defense. If you even try to offer a single reason why Dirk is a more complete player than Duncan, you haven't been around the sport long. The article by Simmons is ridiculous. That's like calling Nash the "most complete" point guard in the history of the league. Sure, some people will buy it because Nash is hot right now, and he makes incredibly flashy plays. He looks unstoppable, until any top 10 PG comes along and makes him and the entire Suns team look absolutely lost on defense. Fans who saw Magic rise to prominence just smile and nod and say, yep, Nash is a pretty good little point guard.

Dirk is a pretty good power forward.

It's funny though, because those two "complete" players have 0 Finals MVPs and 0 les between them. Yet they're supposed to be the best at each position? I guess it's not surprising. Young fans equate Sportscenter highlights to quality basketball. Older fans are a bit more cogniscient of the fact that Defense never gets credit yet always takes the le home.




Knew something was off about that statement, so I fixed it for you.

I'm not arguing your point as I agree that Duncan > than Dirk but to call Dirk "flashy" is a bit of a stretch.

[Cry Havoc]

I'm not arguing your point as I agree that Duncan > than Dirk but to call Dirk "flashy" is a bit of a stretch.

Well, "pretty flashy" is to a lesser extent of flashy. Dirk obviously isn't all just show, and if that's what I was conveying in the initial post, I should revise it. But Dirk's offensive performances are much more in line with hype (mostly well-deserved hype, in his case) than a gritty, quiet post player. Fans and the media love offense and could care less about D.

I honestly have to wonder how much more recognition Duncan would get from the media if he had the temperament of Sheed or Karl Malone. Something tells me he would be on Sportscenter every week and have 3 MVPs to show for it. Of course, # of MVPs is a distant second to playoff performances and les, so I'll take the more reserved, silently dominate Timmay.