Well, Thomas played basically one quarter and the Suns scored 31 points while he was on the court. I'm all for D'Antoni taking this train of thought, though
The thing is, when the Suns run, it's usually one or two guys getting out on the break. A Suns fast break is Nash throwing the ball up to Barbosa who beats everyone to the basket and lays it in. I don't see them like the Showtime Lakers who would run three, four or five guys at a time.
But yeah as a Spurs fan, the less I see of Thomas, the happier I am. He's their best post defender, their best help defender, their best pick-and-roll defender and their best at boxing out. Yeah he might slow the pace some, but this is never going to be like 2002 Mavs vs. Kings ... no matter how much D'Antoni wants the pace to be pushed.
Yeah, that Nash/Marion pick-and-roll was deadly. The only time the Spurs stopped it was when Parker stole the pass to Marion (right before The Collision).
I don't know if the Suns were saving it for the fourth quarter, but it sure looked that way. They were something like 6-for-7 in getting baskets when they ran it.
The scary thing is I don't know how the Spurs can stop it without sending help from a three-point shooter. Marion is too quick and if you send the other big to double, Marion will just pass it to Stoudemire for a dunk.
Thanks. I'd say most Suns fans are quite reasonable with a little, sound bias for their own team. I must say you guys have many reasonable posters here also, which motivated me to contribute a little in the first place.Welcome, cly2tw.
It's pleasant when a new poster from an opposition team shows up and he isn't a head
As a Suns fan, I disagree. Banks didn't even deserve the PT that he got. It would be nice to see him get 4 or 5 minutes to see how he could play against Parker, but that's it. I don't want him shooting the ball at all.So true. Sigh!
The problem starts in regular season. Against the Spurs, Banks and Rose should be of more use than James Jones, yet focused on winning every regular season game possible and on cultivating the "style", DA refused to give them playing time, as if to say "we can win it all without adjustments" or "others have to adjust to us not the other way round". The same reason he refuses to play Kurt more and Banks a little.
For long stretches, the Suns offense was almost exclusively Nash-Amare-Barbosa, so Banks or any other defensive specialist (like Bowen) may not have many chances to shoot anyways. But it's against DA's philosophy to have a non-shooter on the court.
Banks was a shooter before this year. Look at his career numbers, they were great, and he had an awesome 2nd half of last year, which prompted us to sign him. He lost his shooting touch, he forgot how to make layups, and even his defense, (which was his biggest asset) was non-existant.For long stretches, the Suns offense was almost exclusively Nash-Amare-Barbosa, so Banks or any other defensive specialist (like Bowen) may not have many chances to shoot anyways. But it's against DA's philosophy to have a non-shooter on the court.
He didn't deserve minutes. Everyone on the Suns can shoot. (well, except Banks now)
Elson may do better on Shawn Marion at the defensive end....
I don't think Thomas will be as effective playing regular minutes. I would bet his numbers drop off the longer he's on the floor.
That would be interesting, though. The Suns going big on us.
I agree with that notion. It's why I'm inclined to think that while Thomas had a very positive effect on Game 1 for the Suns, extended minutes for him would seem to benefit the Spurs.
If Thomas is on the floor for extended minutes, D'Antoni either has to sit Stoudemire (not going to happen) or he has to take one of his non-Marion wing players off the floor. Thomas becomes a fairly stationary target for the defense. Certainly, he can be somewhat effective at times when used in 2-man games with Nash, shooting the ball from around the free throw line. But even then, he's not slashing to the bucket or compelling doubles and help. In fact, I'd think that the Spurs would be quite content to see if Kurt Thomas can beat them from 10 feet and out.
More importantly, I think, if Thomas out there, the Spurs aren't having to chase Nash AND Marion AND Barbosa AND/OR Bell while still dealing with Stoudemire in the post. The less speed and athleticism that's on the floor, the better for the Spurs.
A lineup of
Nash
Bell/Barbosa
Marion
KT
Amare would the best for the suns in this series IMO.
You give Barbosa Diaw's minutes. It's as simple as that.
IMO, D'Antoni is not committed to defense, so he's not going to bring in a good defender at the cost of an offensive liability.
I also agree with this. Thomas for big minutes means that the tempo slows for the game, and this means fewer possessions for both teams. Fewer possessions means the Spurs better defense has a bigger impact and the score of both teams goes down. This is exactly what the Spurs want.
In addition, this allows the Spurs to help off of Thomas if necessary to cutoff Nash's penetration and still not give up open 3's. I don't think Thomas is going to be very effective at cutting to the basket like Amare would in that situation. If the Spurs play their game, I don't see a way that the Suns can match, no matter who they play.
For all of the criticism of Pop, this is precisely the reason why he tinkers with the lineups throughout the season and plays odd combinations at times. This is why he goes small, because he knew he would have to match up with a team like Phoenix at some point and that his players better be experienced at playing various styles. The Suns play one way, and if they can't win that way they are done. The odd lineups may have caused the Spurs wins this season, but it's paying off in spades now.
What does your bench rotation look like? With a lineup like that, the game is going to be slowed and become a physical, grind it out game. The Suns aren't accustomed to that, and will need significant bench time for this lineup to hope to be effective late in the 4th Q. If not, they will flame out in the 4th like Denver against the Spurs D.
Nice video room work this morning, timvp. Kurt Thomas may play more minutes but that will also mean more fouls for Kurt Thomas. History is on the Spurs' side on that one.
I don't think he necessarily slows the pace of the game, but I do think that he makes the Suns more manageable when you can get them into the half court. That, of course, is a key for the Spurs anyway.
It also limits the permutations of guys who can get out and run in transition. If Thomas plays big mintues, the Suns are really relying on their two guards and Marion to get out on every break. That's formidable, but it's not quite as formidable as having 4 burners who can go end-to-end in nothing flat.
I could foresee several defensive possiblities that would be available to the Spurs if Thomas gets big minutes.
I think there's truth in that; I think that Pop, to an extent, got caught with his britches down in the Dallas series last year because he hadn't spent much time during the regular season experimenting with smallball combos and had to figure out how to use his roster in smallball mode on the fly. This year, Pop has been more of the Mad Professor of years past; lots of combinations, lots of variation. I think that allows him to be a bit more selective and -- believe it or not -- to occasionally dictate matchups to opponents. He was masterful at times in the Denver series at forcing Karl to match him. It's a bit harder to do that against Phoenix, but I think the Spurs are more prepared for this sort of situation because they've had plenty of time to look at the various ways that they might deal with a team like this one.
Yes, I agreed.
but the key is Kurt Thomas? wow!
I would take it one step further, LJ. You wanna read something shocking? When the Suns played "big" with Shawn Marion as the SF, they were a +11. Meaning -15 when he was PF.
I don't think it matters all that much if it's KThomas in there or Diaw, as long as it's one of them and they put Amare at PF and Marion at SF. It might hurt their offense a bit, but they guard a lot better and rebound better when they're big.
To me, the Suns problem is their insistence on playing Raja Bell, with all his "Manu-stopper" nonsense. Marion was already the best guy they had to guard Manu. With Bell on the floor there is really no one for Marion to guard, at least not commiserate to his skill level. To put it simply, he's too good/talented to waste on the likes of Oberto/Elson/Horry/Bowen and not nearly physically equipped to handle Tim or Tony. Manu/Finley are the only guys it makes sense for him to guard, and unless Pop does D'Antoni a favor and goes small, we're not going to play Manu and Finley together an awful lot.
The Suns should play a Diaw/Thomas-Stoudemire-Marion-Barbosa-Nash line-up as much as possible if they want to beat us. Use Diaw as your 6th man to rest Thomas and I would even go so far as putting him at SF for those four, five minutes a game that Marion sits. Make Bell the 7th man and use him to spell Barbosa or Nash, with LB sliding over to point. Don't ever play James Jones, ever.
All that being said, from our perspective, I think we should stay big, but perhaps play Bowen less. If we play Manu and Finley together, then we make Nash have to guard somebody and drain him defensively. I don't think Bowen did that good of a job on Nash anyway and we can still neutralize Marion on offense just by getting back in transition and taking away his threes. Also, playing Manu and Finley together will force the Suns to play both Bell and Marion, which means they can't stay big AND play a Barbosa-Nash backcourt, which I think is the worst match-up nightmare for us.
You know, if one objective is "draining" Nash defensively, lets get a little unsubtle about this. You know he's going to guard Bowen if he's on the floor, cause it lets Nash rest, and all Nash has to do is stay at home with Bowen right. Get a line of 2 bigs (Oberto, TD), Bowen, Finley, Parker going. We gain possession, and go down to our usual 1/2 court set. Start Bowen on the opposite side of his usual corner, and just have Tony delay, holding the ball at the top of the arc for 2 or 3 seconds, while Bowen sprints the baseline, over to the opposite corner (his comfy corner). Nash has to come across with him or give him a free 3 from his hot spot (which is a decent percentage play in and of itself). Have both bigs hit Nash with their best screens as Bowen and Nash go through the paint. Bounce Nash off the floor a few times, and that back of his might start bugging him some... It ain't subtle, but it will actually make Nash take a pounding from screens (at least the 1st couple of times).
Even if Thomas plays a lot more minutes in each game the rest of this series, Duncan is good enough to where he should be able to get his and be effective. If not, then I would definitely be surprised.
Rotation?
It involves a heavy dose of Barbosa and Diaw lately (the past 5 games or so James Jones has started, so he used to came off of the bench) and Kurt Thomas. We have other players (Jalen Rose, Marcus Banks) that could play well, but for whatever reason, didn't mesh with D'Antoni's system.
We really need to see Barbosa more and often. He has to go right at Duncan/Elson/Oberto, or there is no way that we can push the pace.
Wasnt Steven Hunter a Duncan-stopper as well in 2005? It seemed like it.
Kurt Thomas is no exception. Duncan learns from these opponents and figures them out like laser beams in the next game.
In many ways the Suns' problem wasn't guarding TP. It was the lack of rebounding, especially on the defensive end, which reduced the Suns' offense to crawl at times compared to their usual M.O.
If the Suns' star rebounding better than I believe the Spurs will in real trouble. If the Spurs' keep the rebounding in check like game 1. Then this could be a very short series.
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