Yup. I think we have had this argument before and pretty much came to that conclusion.
BUT
My belief in God allows room for science and evolution. The bible has its bright spots, but shouldn't be taken too literally.
That is where we will diverge, I guess.
That is not the point of our contention....
Your last comment suggests that my belief in GOD displaces SCIENCE; that is not the case. I've simply come to the conclusion that there are realms that science doesn't cover. A supernatural GOD definitely falls in that category.
How do you measure GOD under that premise?
Where we differed was that you were willing to accept infintessimal odds, and belief in a multi-universe theory, as the basis for the natural origin of the universe, and origin of DNA. I chose not to accept those odds. But again... no need to enter that fray once more.
Last edited by Phenomanul; 06-01-2007 at 10:23 AM.
It would appear so, if one breeding pair of "canines" less than 6 thousand years ago became all types of canine species. In fact, that would be AGGRESSIVE evolution, faster than anything posited by recognized science.The Bible doesn't use our modern taxidermical system.
All it says is that GOD instructed Noah to take two of every creature, male and female, according to its KIND aboard the ark. It makes no mention of EVERY SPECIES as you've implied.
At that point, you take a pair of canines and you have all our dog, wolf, coyote, fox, dingo, and jackal species covered.
Their Eve is one hot original sinner.
The mainstream definition of Evolution is governed by random mutations that occur over time and that are selectively chosen by the environment (natural selection) - i.e. if the change was beneficial to the survival of that species, more than likely it would be passed on to the next generation, and so forth. It is an unguided and inherently chaotic process, where more mutations are discarded or detrimental than those that would be considered beneficial. It is slow, and requires time for full blown speciation and divergence to be achieved. I don't buy it when presented as such.
I believe that GOD endowed the creatures in HIS creation with the ability to adapt, with the ability to change and that these changes were wholly embedded within their original genomes. All the genetic material they would ever need to branch out into various niches was already there, stored away in 'inactive' zones of every species' particular DNA. Over the years however, some of those genes were activated or recombined with existing ones to produce noticably different phenotypes. Then over spans of several generations those genotypic changes coupled with fine-tuned selective breeding habits subsequently produced what we would later classify as distinct species. Has the fact that all canine 'species' still remain completely interfertile with each other eluded you?
How is it that these species are so radically different both in genotypes and phenotypes (dogs, wolves, dingoes, jackals, coyotes, etc...) and yet still be able to breed with each other? Could it be that our classification for a species is too narrow? Could it be that we are witnesses to a guided adaptation process and not some agressive evolutionary process gone awry? boutons_ last genetically oriented thread about the team of researchers from Harvard, Stanford and Princeton touched on this very same theme - although it wasn't presented as such. Various experiments conducted on drosophilia flies have pointed to this very phenomenon as well. Sometimes the data paints a picture we don't want to see. And biologists have done a damn good job of drawing attention away from this inconsistency in their 'evolutionary' model - particularly those who have embraced evolution as their undeniable 'proof' that GOD is a fable.
Is it any wonder that certain species can 'speciate' within a matter of three or four generations (i.e. similar to what we see in dog breeding, or plant hybrids). Since biologists know that mutations alone cannot account for this accelarated process they have done their best to keep such 'aberrations' on the down low. Most people struggle to fathom that even the simplest of genes is still highly complicated. Nevertheless, we are still being taught to believe and unconditionally accept that the random step-function model that drives 'evolutionary' changes is the engine that produces such genes. That's why their biological models require millions upon millions of years and the very same reason that fast-tracked 'speciation' is hard to swallow. AGRESSIVE EVOLUTION... you're right. It doesn't exist - at least not in how science has defined evolution to begin with.
Last edited by Phenomanul; 06-01-2007 at 03:41 PM.
those credentials arent very impressiveteam of researchers from Harvard, Stanford and Princeton
Of course they are. If they weren't, they suggest that both evolution may have occurred and that their target demographic may not be at the pinnacle of human existence.
It's actually rather shocking that Adam isn't a balding tub of lard.
Damn, you know, thats a very interesting observation!they're whitewho woulda thunkit
Truly, the first question someone should ask at that display is...."Soooo, the models look all well and good, but where did Chinese and Black people come from?"
How about blondes and redheads? Intelligent design sure had alot of details.
You obviously don't remember that thread**. Try to keep up.
(**a close friend of mine was on that research team... I pointed out that the implications of their findings were a stab in the heart to the principles that govern micro-evolution)
Last edited by Phenomanul; 06-01-2007 at 03:14 PM.
And you obviously have no clue whatsoever to what you're talking about.
Your attempts to be sarcastically poignant at the expense of something you vaguely understand will invariably fall short when delivered without knowledge.
Last edited by Phenomanul; 06-01-2007 at 04:24 PM.
The sarcasm is directed at the museums portrayal of adam and eve. You've got your head buried so deep into "that book", you can't see it. If you believe in your God, then you have to believe in others, too.
If I believe in my God, there are no others.
Are other Gods somehow not legitimate? What prevents you from believing in them? The part that says "Believe in no other God"?
I've posted this article before, but what the , I'll even bold the parts I believe pertain to this thread, just like Boutons and Dan.
Ok, I have seriously had ENOUGH of this ing bull from you mother ing hypocrites! I can't go anywhere online anymore without having to deal with crap about my religious beliefs. What the ever happened to the First Amendment? Huh! You assholes seem to think it's there to protect YOU and only YOU! Well go yourselves, it's NOT! Guess what, it's there to protect everyone from religious persecution - EVERY- ING-ONE!
Religious persecution? What am I talking about? I'm talking about how every smart-ass Atheist, Agnostic, or Pagan online thinks it's their ing mission in life to insult, belittle, and degrade the Christian religion. You don't believe in a damn thing? Fine! you and have at it! Do you think any of us give a rat's ass what you do or don't believe in? What, you think it BOTHERS us that you don't believe in God? I could really ing care less! You don't have faith in anything beyond what your senses tell you, that's YOUR problem, not mine! Keep it to yourself, !
You assholes run around whining about "The Christians do this, the Christians do that, the Christians, the Christians, the Christians, it's all their fault, I hate the Christians, blah blah blah blah blah!" Newsflash: Every bad thing in the ing world is NOT our fault!
Yes, Christians started wars in Christ's name - like 500 ing years ago, idiot! Isn't it about time you got over that? We're not running around killing "non-believers" anymore, so why are you still ing about something that happened back then? You know what? I don't ing care! That's right, I don't give a rat's ass if my great-great (x10) Grandfather was the ing pope and had your great-great (x10) Grandfather thrown to the ing Lions. I really don't give a - now shut up about it, you dull-witted !
Yes, a lot of Christians do have a really bad habit of shoving their beliefs down other people's throats and looking down on those who don't accept Christ. So, what, you figured you'd fight fire with fire? Did you think it would somehow make you feel better to do EXACTLY THE SAME ING THING to Christians? Well I hope it helped boost your pathetic little ego, cuz it's over now. It's bigotry, it's religious intolerance and "The Christians started it" is NOT A ING EXCUSE for you to do it! Galen ain't havin' this ANYMORE you sucking s!
Here's how it's gonna work. From now on, you insult my religion in even the smallest way, I'm going to magically transform into the most intolerant ing asshole you've ever met and make it my goal for the next few minutes afterward to put down everything you hold dear. Yeah, the Christians started it, then you picked it up and turned it into your own personal Anti-Jesus pissing match, now I'm jumping in the game. That's right asshole, Lord Galen is sinking right the down to your level and you're gonna wish like you'd never pulled me down there!
Now, here's a tiny preview. Don't bother responding, your opinion doesn't matter, head.
Atheists: Shut your ing pie-holes. Just because you don't have the mental capacity to reach beyond what your five senses tell you, that is not our problem. Pick up a 3rd grade science book asshole and you might discover that the universe if FILLED with that we can't explain or even prove. But I guess that doesn't mean a damn thing to you, right? And here's a lesson in what that word "Atheism" means - it means a lack of ANY religious belief whatsoever. It does NOT mean "anti-religion" it means NO ing religion whatsoever! By being an anti-Christian prick, you've just picked a side and by the very definition of the word, Atheists aren't supposed to even believe in there BEING a side to pick!
Pagans: Y'know, I share a whole lot of Pagan beliefs myself, so I really hate to say this, but I'm sick of you assholes too! You sit around believing in 50 different ing gods and goddesses and then call us a "baby religion" because we ing picked ONE and stuck with it??? Bite me hard, sacks!
Jews: What's the ing deal with you? People insult us and you just sit back and don't say a DAMN word about it! Hey, genius, we believe in the SAME God! There picking on your Jehovah too, dip ! The least you could ing do is stick up for us instead of sitting back on your hands while the religion that's closest to your own gets sniped by assholes! I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I've always felt a kinship with the Jewish people. Jesus was a Jew, his Apostles and Disciples were all Jews, the first Christian church was founded by JEWS! So, sorry if I feel like maybe the Jewish community should be doing a little more than...um, nothing.
If you leave this rant feeling like I'm an intolerant bas , GOOD! That's how you're supposed to feel! That's pretty much how I feel about each and every one of you right now, so I hope it feels nice getting a taste of your own ing medicine you assholes!
For the record, no, I don't have anything against anyone for believing differently than I do. I respect it and even encourage it. Variety is the e of life and all that. I'm not intolerant or bigoted about people and their beliefs, but I can damn sure ACT like I am and from now on I intend to make it a point to do exactly that! I'm sick and damn tired of putting up with you anti-Christian assholes and your ing BIGOTRY against my people! You take any opportunity you can to make some snide little remark about us or to belittle us in some way. Oh sure, most of you won't come right out and insult us because you're ing pussies; you'd rather hide behind your sublty-worded inuendos and subliminal mind- re games. Enough of it. I ain't havin' this anymore and any of you who think you've got the ing balls to go a round or two with me, you just bring it on!
Actually, don't. It would be a whole lot better (for you) if you just shut your ing mouth and take this as a learning experience. Hopefully you got the message:
YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO INSULT, BELITTLE, OR DEGARDE MY BELIEFS - NO MATTER WHAT!
This is the last time I'm speaking about this. The next thing you hear on this subject from me is going to be me insulting everything you hold dear - just like you assholes constantly do to my people! This IS it! You're not better or smarter or more "open minded" than Christians. You're not en led to look down your noses at us just because you think we do it to you. Two rights don't make a wrong.
There are plenty of problems with mainstream Conservative Christians. You wanna talk about those problems, fine. You wanna insult ALL of us because you hate the bigoted among us, that's not fine and that makes you just as bad as the people you claim to hate so much.
I love the smell of victim in the morning.
DINOSAURS!
Roar, es
WJXT-TV—Jacksonville, FL
Valedictorian's Speech About Christ Prompts Controversy
WJXT-TV
10:14 p.m. EDT May 28, 2007
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. - A high school class's top student took the show at her graduation with a nearly 20-minute speech urging her fellow students to find God -- a topic that prompted a commencement controversy. Wolfson High School valedictorian Shannon Spaulding made the comments in front of a large crowd of proud parents, friends and classmates.
Some members of the audience said Spaulding picked the wrong forum to share her beliefs, while others applauded her courageous message.
The valedictorian's speech was about Jesus Christ and suggested those who don't believe would go to .
"I want to tell you that Jesus Christ can give you eternal life in heaven," Spaulding said before the crowd. "If we die with that sin on our souls, we will immediately be pulled down to to pay the eternal price for our sins ourselves."
For 17 minutes, Spaulding's speech went on, making religious references to Bible scriptures that were often followed with applause.
"Like the Geico Insurance slogan -- so easy a caveman can do it. Letting Jesus take care of our sin problem is so easy a child can do it," said Spaulding.
However, there were some in the audience who said they were uncomfortable during the speech and felt the comments were inappropriate.
"It was not the right forum. We were all sent there to have a joyous occasion and not a religious revival," said Samantha, who was at the event to see her sister graduate.
School superintendent Joseph Wise issued a statement after the graduation ceremony, stating he deeply regretted that "the student exercised her time in her valedictorian speech in a manner that was offensive and insensitive to some."
Spaulding told Channel 4 she was not aware of the controversy and stands behind everything she said.
"I was not trying to force anything on anybody. I just wanted to tell them something I knew was important to me and wanted to have them a chance to hear," Spaulding said.
While some were uncomfortable about her message, there were others who felt it was very appropriate speech.
"I think that was the most important thing to her, and I think she had the right to say it. She succeeded in becoming valedictorian, and that was her right," said attendee Carileen Bollinger.
Sounds like a "well trained, programmed little robot".
What's the big deal, I did the same thing in my speech.
So answer me this: where does the Cons ution suggest that a public speech with 'religious' overtones automatically be considered a proselytizing act?
People say stuff I don't agree with everyday. You respect their opinion and move on - no one ever said you have to agree with everything you hear.
Was it racist? Degrading? Prejudicial? No, it is simply a belief structure.
I completely agree. Isn't it ironic that liberals will cry at the top of their lungs "It is my first amendment right" untill someone else says something they don't like, then thy want to ban it!
reminds me of the chick who did her speech before elpimpo during high school commencement...how much you wanna bet 75% of the crowd were bored and dozing off half way through?
It's a graduation ceremony, likely filled with small children. I guess that's a good time to plant the fear of god in them. Congratulations! That's how it works. Of course you approve.
If you get the grades you deserve the chance to say whatever the you want to say, as long as its not hurtful. If you wanna look like a holier-than-thou and try persuading others to follow your god, its your prerogative.
Children? Believing in God? NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!
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