Was Tim Duncan Traded?

[Nathan Explosion]

Based on talent and skill, Lebron is a better player. However, being the most talented doesn't not equal being the best player.

Duncan affects the game on both ends of the court. Make no mistaken, the offense starts with Duncan in the middle quarterbacking the offense. On defense, it's the same thing. Duncan gets everyone into position, and Duncan calls out the screens, doubles, and rotations if need be. He's the coach on the court basically, helping his teammates succeed through leadership and communication.

Not to mention he can score at will and lockdown his defender and the painted area in particular.

And he has a pretty high basketball IQ.

Of course, no one knows these things.

As for Lebron having humility, that's not always true. He has a respect for the game, and you have to give him credit for that. And he can be humble about his situation. But he did go on ESPN and say that his goal was to be a global icon. Not a champion. Not a great teammate. Not the best player ever. He wanted to be a global icon. Sorry, but that doesn't sound humble to me.

[BWJACKETS]

The problem with this line of thinking is: what happens when Lebron (or another superstar), is not in the playoffs. The casual fan thinks Duncan is boring. It's not being a homer saying this is a bad idea in general for the NBA, it's just being observant.

Ask yourself this question: If the league had been promoting Tim like Lebron since 1999, do you the ratings would be so bad?

Look, I have no problem with Lebron, and as a basketball fan, I'm glad he'll be in the Finals so the ratings will be high.

But, I have to say, the NBA misses great opportunities for marketing. ie, 2003, they could have gone into great detail into David Robinson and his story during the Finals. They didn't. Instead, they decided to review summer movies during halftime (no joke!).

In short, the current NBA ratings slump was in part created by the NBA by hyping teams and players that very rarely make it to the Finals.

I don't think Duncan is boring, he is a very good player, one of the best in the league, and based on past seasons as well, as Spurs fans will remind you he is statistically one of the best at his position of all-time. However, to say that that makes him better than Lebron right now is just crazy. Both are great players but to say that one is definitively better than the other is just stupid.

On a side note, Duncan gets as much credit as anybody when it comes to the media. Maybe you wish Timmy would get more credit from the fans, but I think people just don't like him, period- the fact that he acted like a complete fool with that situation with the Joey Crawford, and the fact that he is playing for a "dirty" team haven't helped his cause.

[implacable44]

A Dirty team ? That is as tired as the asteriK or asteriX --Asterisk arguement. Crazy e broke some dudes jaw and you want to call the Spurs dirty ?

[easjer]

I don't think Duncan is boring, he is a very good player, one of the best in the league, and based on past seasons as well, as Spurs fans will remind you he is statistically one of the best at his position of all-time. However, to say that that makes him better than Lebron right now is just crazy. Both are great players but to say that one is definitively better than the other is just stupid.

On a side note, Duncan gets as much credit as anybody when it comes to the media. Maybe you wish Timmy would get more credit from the fans, but I think people just don't like him, period- the fact that he acted like a complete fool with that situation with the Joey Crawford, and the fact that he is playing for a "dirty" team haven't helped his cause.

Media bias, as has been discussed to death and beyond.

And as for bias - how's this, as discussed in another thread.

LeBron is 22 and has brought his team to the Finals.

Tim Duncan did the same thing at 22, in half the time.

Tim Duncan's career at the same period as LeBron supports the idea of Duncan being a better player.

Will LeBron ultimately surpass Duncan? Very possibly - likely, even.

But you cannot, with intelligence or evidence, make the argument that LeBron is better than Duncan now, which is when the argument is being made. It doesn't work that way. You can privately believe he's better, but evidence will fail you. Do it anyway, that is the fan's job. I always, always believed Duncan was better than Shaq, with Shaq at his prime.

But at least don't pretend that I'm arguing with blinders on.

[implacable44]

TIm was 23 when he made it to the finals I think.

in a nuts -- Lebron needs to play at this level over time. This is year #1 - Duncan has 10 such years. Lebron needs to put a few more together before he can be as good as Duncan. He could flame out a la Vince Carter - Mcgrady or he could keep going like Duncan. He could have an injury that changes his game and effectiveness - like Penny. What is he never develops a consistent jumper ?

[Nathan Explosion]

Duncan at this point in his career is a top 15 player of all time. When he's all done, he could jump into the top 10.

Lebron's a great talent, and still beginning his career, but to say he's better than Duncan is far fetched. Again, Duncan, greatest PF ever, and one of the greatest of all time. Lebron hasn't accomplished anything yet.

Lebron could pass Duncan up. He just hasn't done it yet.

[CubanMustGo]

Here is the Washington Post article mentioned earlier:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...060401937.html

Duncan's Exclusive Company

By Mike Wise
Tuesday, June 5, 2007; Page E01

Now that LeBron James has become ABC's savior of the NBA Finals -- and LeBron says he is honored to be compared to Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson and Gandhi -- we interrupt this homeroom crush for some genuine education.

The San Antonio Spurs are going to school Cleveland and win their fourth le, in six games or fewer, because they have the best player on the floor in the series. Tim Duncan, despite getting less love than jury duty, is maybe the largest difference-maker since Jordan. Shaquille O'Neal is the only other big man from Duncan's generation who's won more.

It's nice that LeBron has evolved so quickly, overtaking Carmelo Anthony and Dwyane Wade from his draft class. But filling Kobe's excitement void from the playoffs is not the same as being on the verge of winning more les than Larry Bird.

When the Spurs are finished polishing off Cleveland, Duncan will not only eclipse Bird's three rings, he will join Magic and Michael as the only leading men with more than three championships with the same franchise since Bill Russell. Four decades after Russell, Duncan would join a class of three.

When the Cavaliers' nice, little run is done, Duncan will be 4-0 in the Finals, leaving him two short of Michael's perfect 6-0 mark. And Duncan's team might have two more left in them after this season. Magic was 5-4 and Bird 3-2 on the game's grandest stage. Shaq is 4-2, has participated in six of the last 13 Finals and is the only player in league history to lead three different franchises to championship series.

But San Antonio winning will give Duncan as many les as Shaq. Many observers believe this fact vaults Duncan past O'Neal as the greatest player of his generation. That might be a bit much, given that only two players in NBA history have better winning percentages than the teams O'Neal has played on: Magic and Bill Russell, considered the greatest winners of their respective eras.

But it would put Duncan on par with Shaq. Given that he has more tread on his tires left than the big fella, it's not hard to envision the 31-year-old Duncan leading the Spurs to at least two more Finals.

While Cleveland is deservedly being celebrated for slaying the Philistines from Detroit, Duncan led the Spurs out of a Western Conference very few believed they could navigate at the beginning of the season.

After Dallas beat them in Game 7 of the semifinals in San Antonio a year ago, the Spurs and their star were viewed as that old, creaky team spiraling downward. No way they were supposed to get by Phoenix when Amare Stoudemire was healthy. No way anyone would stand in Dallas's path to a le it should have won a year ago.

Before the playoffs began, the Spurs were generally thought of as no better than the third-best team in the West behind the Suns and Mavericks. Their style was thought of as too plodding and predictable to stay with Steve Nash and Shawn Marion and Jason Terry and Josh Howard in the open court.

The perception of Duncan mirrored his team; he was coming off a season in which his body was breaking down and there simply were too many quick, young big men to rise over.

As usual, his detractors missed the importance of Duncan. His game has never been about explosiveness; it's about efficiency. His degree of difficulty has nothing to do with hang time and more to do with angles and trajectory, all the skill-level amenities missing from contemporary front-court players.

Even his position -- a center-power forward hybrid -- prevents flat-out comparisons to other great pivots. Kevin McHale and Karl Malone are all-time greats on the blocks, but McHale played with Bird and Robert Parish in his prime, as did Malone with John Stockton. David Robinson was winding down when Duncan joined the Spurs.

Drama is at a premium for Duncan, too; he's had the same coach, Gregg Popovich, his entire career. Often expressionless and unemotional since his days at Wake Forest, where the Duke student section referred to him as "Spock," there is a monotony to the way Duncan plays and carries himself that doesn't resonate in a culture run by celebrity.

He gets penalized for consistently playing and living between the lines while so many of his look-at-me peers obliterate the boundaries and become more popular for it. Polarization sells; professionalism is so '90s.

That's how the guy who kept his head down, motored forward and did nothing but win and put up numbers -- while silencing the conversation about him and his team being too old -- is cast as the black hat next to the young, fresh gun in the NBA Finals. That's why Tim Duncan's journey to scaling Shaq as the most important player of his generation is nothing more than a subplot going in.

LeBron James reinvigorates the "Next Michael" debate after a sterling week of basketball. Meanwhile, if anyone wanted to look long and hard, Tim Duncan belongs at the top of that class more than Kobe, more than Dwyane Wade and certainly more than LeBron. More than any of them, he's won at a higher level.

[MadDog73]

Maybe you wish Timmy would get more credit from the fans, but I think people just don't like him, period-

No, if people hated Tim Duncan, like the way people hate Kobe and Shaq, then the Spurs would be drawing better ratings. Which is why many fans here embrace the "dirty" image: Being viewed as "dirty" (even if not true), is infinitely better than being "boring". (also not true).

I think most basketball fans are indifferent to Duncan and the Spurs. They just don't care, period.

the fact that he acted like a complete fool with that situation with the Joey Crawford, and the fact that he is playing for a "dirty" team haven't helped his cause.

Again, if that was the case, then ratings would be up, not down.

I don't want Duncan to be "loved" by opponent's fans. I want him to be hated and feared.

The last thing I want is for him to be ignored.

[sheriee84]

the fact that he acted like a complete fool with that situation with the Joey Crawford, and the fact that he is playing for a "dirty" team haven't helped his cause.

Duncan acted like a fool?! Crawford threw him out of the game for LAUGHING!!! That's like being mad because someone looked at you wrong... And Tim wasn't the one who committed the "dirty" foul, it was Horry... And IMO Steve Nash totally flopped on that foul... If horry had turned and helped him up no one would have said anything...

[mabber]

The problem with this line of thinking is: what happens when Lebron (or another superstar), is not in the playoffs. The casual fan thinks Duncan is boring. It's not being a homer saying this is a bad idea in general for the NBA, it's just being observant.

Ask yourself this question: If the league had been promoting Tim like Lebron since 1999, do you the ratings would be so bad?

Look, I have no problem with Lebron, and as a basketball fan, I'm glad he'll be in the Finals so the ratings will be high.

But, I have to say, the NBA misses great opportunities for marketing. ie, 2003, they could have gone into great detail into David Robinson and his story during the Finals. They didn't. Instead, they decided to review summer movies during halftime (no joke!).

In short, the current NBA ratings slump was in part created by the NBA by hyping teams and players that very rarely make it to the Finals.

I'm just explaining what the NBA is doing. From a "business" perspective it makes total sense to promote players like LeBron & Wade instead of Duncan. I'm not saying these guys are better than Duncan. There's just nothing exciting about Duncan's game to the "casual" fan. I enjoy the out of watching him play but I'm not the casual fan that the NBA is trying to get to watch.

[mabber]

No, if people hated Tim Duncan, like the way people hate Kobe and Shaq, then the Spurs would be drawing better ratings. Which is why many fans here embrace the "dirty" image: Being viewed as "dirty" (even if not true), is infinitely better than being "boring". (also not true).

I think most basketball fans are indifferent to Duncan and the Spurs. They just don't care, period.



Again, if that was the case, then ratings would be up, not down.

I don't want Duncan to be "loved" by opponent's fans. I want him to be hated and feared.

The last thing I want is for him to be ignored.

I totally agree.

[Nathan Explosion]

Duncan acted like a fool?! Crawford threw him out of the game for LAUGHING!!! That's like being mad because someone looked at you wrong... And Tim wasn't the one who committed the "dirty" foul, it was Horry... And IMO Steve Nash totally flopped on that foul... If horry had turned and helped him up no one would have said anything...

That's like this one girl at work calling in because she was mad at a coworker. It happened. Sad fact is we couldn't fire her because of particular disability rules and how they work.

[Mr. Body]

People who fail to appreciate Duncan are like the idiots who keep caring about Paris Hilton and the other junk in our culture. They're driving the rest of us down.

[sheriee84]

I go back to my original argument that everyone just wants a flashy offensive player... Not a solid all-around player, like duncan.

[thispego]

Duncan can score at will and has proven that fact many times. See the WCF last year when he just dominated the Mavs on one foot. As far as double or triple teams - Duncan sees them all the time -- it is actually easier to double or triple TD because of the spots where he gets the ball. It is more difficult to run at Lebron because he typically gets isolated at the top or on the wing. ( I Think the Pistons didn't double him hardly at all the first 4 games until he burned them in game 5 right ?)..

I am not sure what "talent" you are talking about that surrounds Duncan either. I mean you got the Big Z, two hustle players in Crazy e and Gooden who clean up the boards forhis highness -- Damon JOnes and Gibson who must be "great" because that is all I have read lately is how "great" he is and how Cleveland knew he was "great" when they drafted him. There is Donyell Marshall who has always been a quality player in the L and of course Larry Hughes who was good for 21 ppg with Washington - incidentally he comes to Cleveland and can't get 13 per...Did Lebron make him better or worse?

The Spurs are the oldest team in the league with the most predictable offense since Stockton to Malone....They have a PG that is a shoot first and dominate the ball dribbler name PArker - Manu who is erratic and a flopper - Bowen who is one dimensional and virtually u seless in this series because he cannot hold Lebron. Fransisco Elson at center and a pump faking - fade-a-way shooting 2 guard in Finley who plays no D. LEts not forget about Horry who can give you 15 minutes every other night and has been reduced from big shot bob to designated thug according to most - Bones who registers as many DNP's as he does good games... Jaque Vaughn who is most famous for being clowned on Sportscenter for not scoring in some 20 or so straight games ....Fabio and some red headed dude who comes in for a minute or so every now and then.

How do the Spurs have a better roster? This is contrary to everything Cavs fan has said lately on this board.

Best player in the world is debatable - Some would say TD - some Lebron and most would say Kobe.

At the end of the day Lebron is a beast - just as much as Shaq is. You are not supposed to be a very quick 6'8" - 240 with handles - a jumper, court vision AND HOPS? He is a physical beast - too strong for anybody that guards him and too quick for most. He is the perimeter Shaq. Shaq got swept his first finals though.....

good post. what say you, cavs fans?

[Ocotillo]

Are the Cavs making the trip or is LeBron going to play the Spurs himself?

[mardigan]

Not sure how you can say that Duncan is better than Lebron when Duncan has all the help that he does and Lebron still does much more with what he does have.

You dont think Duncan's greatness had anything to do with Tony (a late 1st round pick) and Manu (almost the last pick in the 2nd round) becoming the players that they are? Your constant disrespect for Tim is grating on my nerves

[duncan228]

You dont think Duncan's greatness had anything to do with Tony (a late 1st round pick) and Manu (almost the last pick in the 2nd round) becoming the players that they are? Your constant disrespect for Tim is grating on my nerves

And mine.
And it's disrespect for the entire team. And coaching staff.

[sheriee84]

You dont think Duncan's greatness had anything to do with Tony (a late 1st round pick) and Manu (almost the last pick in the 2nd round) becoming the players that they are? Your constant disrespect for Tim is grating on my nerves

I think Tim has had a major influence in how all the current Spurs' players have turned out.... But not in talent so much as in confidence. Having the BEST player in the world pretty much tell you that he couldn't win a championship without you is a HUGE confidence booster... So in a way he has influenced these players.