Your Vision

[Mr. Peabody]

I don't teach fear, I teach respect. Respect of the known, not fear of the unknown.

I've always felt that there is a little bit of fear that often accompanies respect. However, that's just my view on things.

As far as the known and unknown, it really doesn't matter how you get kids to learn moral principles. Any reasonable method would be better than not teaching them at all.

[clambake]

I've always felt that there is a little bit of fear that often accompanies respect. However, that's just my view on things.

As far as the known and unknown, it really doesn't matter how you get kids to learn moral principles. Any reasonable method would be better than not teaching them at all.

[Thunder Dan]

I take no offense to what you have said, but I do have a question. You assert that most of the teachers in this country are liberals. I don't know that this is a true statement, but for the sake of argument I will assume that it is. In your opinion, why are most teachers liberals? Is it something about the profession that makes people more liberal or do liberals tend to gravitate towards the teaching profession?

Liberal teachers are better since they will allow their students to grow. Going to school isn't all about education, it's about growing into yourself, and gaining thoughts of your own. I don't think teachers are forcing liberal politics down their students' throats, but I think they allow their students to think freely on the subjects covered. I think this is a good thing to let students adapt and interpret the material as it applies to them.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Wow, some very interesting and thought provoking takes on this question. I hardly ever come to the political forum, but when I do I'm always impressed by the different points of view and how clearly they're stated.

For me, at age 36 I try not to consider the 'big' picture too much. I find that it is almost too much to consider, to take in all at once. What I try to do is make positive changes on a daily basis with my own life and the life of my family. I try to be a good role model to my children and a faithful husband to my wife. I guess it's kind of the pebble in a pond analogy, as corny as that sounds. If I can create positive change in my life and also role model that lifestyle/belief/vaule system to my family, then my hope is that they can also produce positive changes in this world that can have a positive effect on their environment.

My worry at this point is that people just don't seem to care about each other anymore. We are becoming a society that is more and more isolated and has less concern for the well being of other human beings. Can I change this paradigm all at once? No, I cannot. But what I can do is make small changes in my life and the life of my children and they can hopefully expand that idea/concept to people they come into contact with on a daily basis.

I really don't have much else to go on at this point, there are too many troubles/problems in this world to analyze or understand all at once. But what I refuse to do is give in or play a part in this bleak picture. I can still have a choice on a daily basis to effect my environment in a positive manner. As I get older it seems more difficult to do, but I'm not ready to give up at this point.

Yes. People don't give a about anyone but themselves.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. My 4 yr old son and I were at Kiddie Park last fall having a really good time. My son wanted to rides on the WWII airplanes but he REALLY wanted to ride the blue one. Well we waited in line but someone in front of us got the blue plane so I gave my son a choice. Either he ride another one or wait again. I told him if we waited we would be first in line and we would get the blue plane. My boy told me " Daddy I'll wait my turn for the blue plane....".. During this conversation a dude with tattoos and wife beater were standing right next to us with his 3 yr old child. he heard my son's and my conversation quite clearly. Ride stops and guess what that bas did. He put his little girl over the fence walked in front of my son and put his little girl in the blue plane... my son turned to me and asked why he couldn't ride the blue plane. he told me that he waited his turn and that girl got his plane. I was so furious we had to walk away.. I thought to myslef what is this world coming to when a parent knowingly advocates cutting in line and cuts off a 4yr old on top of that..

That guy didn't give a about anyone else but himself. He taught his daughter that this was ok..

[George Gervin's Afro]

Some great thoughts on this thread. I especially like to last
post by Ballcox.

A little perceptive from my point of view. Understand this is how
I have viewed life, not the last word on the changing world in my
lifetime.

I was born and raised in a small town in North Texas. Most
people lived as Ballcox tries to live his life. Just taking care of
family and trying their best to set a good example. And
taking care of neighbors when they needed help or were facing
a death in the family.

My Grandparents were all farmers, and I might add dyed in
woods Democrats, my Father was a good Democrat also. But not Democrats
as they are today, the Democrats of old were more like the
Republicans of today. They were very conservative and
progressive in the true sense of the word. The reason Texas
government was one of the best in the United States, we had
the best highways, best water conservation and always low
taxes. Most people in Texas, Anglos and blacks were, what
you would consider now days poor. Not hungry poor or
clothes poor or housing poor, just money poor. Notice I didn't
say anything about Mexicans. There were none in my part of
the country or hometown, take that back, there was one family.
The father came there when a band he played in came to play
at a hotel. They had two sons, I went to school with the oldest.
And they lived in my neighborhood. His father quit the band
and went to work for the local Pontiac dealer, where he stayed
until he retired. On visits there I used to see their Mom, the
Father had died, and she caught me up on all the latest with
the two boys. One became a commerical artist and I cant
remember what the other did right off hand.

Anyhow, politicians were known in those days to be full of it, but
when it came down to the nut cutting they always came down
on the side of country, not party. I can still hearing my
Grandfather ranting about the county commissioners. He had
a real thing about them, I could never figure out why. Maybe
because he was closely associated with them because he
farmed and they took care of roads and bridges.

Telephones lines to farms were maintained by the farmers
themselves, not Ma Bell. My Granddads number which I
can still remember 9014F3, and his ring was three longs and
a short. And by the way, privacy was not expected, phone rang
everyone picked up and joined in on the conversation....LOL.

Never bought a watermelon in my life until I was grown.
Fresh veggies were a given for all that could get out of town
and visit friends that farmed. Promise you they never left
empty handed, even in the winter, a jar or preserves or jar
of canned beans was always available.

I moved from my hometown when a young man and went
into the service. I spent most of my career in the military
overseas, my job was needed overseas so I would get about
18 months in the states and right back over again I would go.
Because of this I was exposed to many cultures and lived on
the economy in all type of conditions. I was very fortunate
in most cases since I did have facilities to shop at to buy goods
not readily available to the local populations. I have lived in
the ME for a couple of years among Muslims and had long
conversations with many of them about my religion and their
religion. Surprisingly, at least to me, their book of worship
corresponds to ours in many respects. One of their big
religious holidays, Ramadan, celebrates when Abraham goes
up on the mountain to sacrifice one of his sons and God
sends down the sheep. At the end of Ramadan many Muslims
do just that sacrifice a sheep in celebration.

I have seen our country change in so many ways. I think the
really first big change started with the covair auto and
Ralph Nadar. You more than likely think that strange. But
in those days people were so trusting of the media and
respectful of those that publish books that they took every
thing at face value, including myself. Now look at how people
view the media. I know I started loosing my faith in media
when Walter Cronkite started being, what I consider, an absolute
traitor to his country. I know that statement should bring up
the hackles of some on this board.

But to close this out, I am sure some have already tired
of reading my rant, I look at the language of some of the
posters and I have to wonder. I was brought up to show
respect, I can curse with the best, believe me, I know all the
words and then some. But I am sure ladies come on this board
and I have no idea what they are, but until proven otherwise,
I have to assume they are ladies and I wouldn't use language
like that in front of them. Why others do in this day in time,
I have to assume they do not know better.

People complain about the education of our young folks, especially
College professors, but can I ask a simple question. Who teaches
these young folks, mostly Liberals. They complain about we
are falling behind other countries, again I ask who are the
teachers, mostly liberals. We complain about road rage, but
what has most of the young people been taught, me first!

Now, one other thing. Most have now been conditioned to
thinking government can do everything. In my younger years,
government was thought of for only the very basic things.
Welfare, was just that, welfare. You needed food, you stood in
line and the government would give you the basics to live on,
food itself. Remember something, most people belong to
churches, and the congregation took care of their own as well
as helping others outside of the church. Government was not
designed or intended to be the end all for everything.

Sorry I took so much space. There is much more I would like
to say, but I am sure some on here will take offense with what
I have already said.

sorry ray but parents have much mroe influence on teaching their children to be selfish. you can try and pin it on teachers but that's a cop out. I tell you what IF YOU can provide one example of how ' liberal teachers teach the me first at ude" I may buy into your theory. Even for you ray this is a ridiculous statement. Always circling back to 'liberals' with you.. if you could I bet you could find someway to tie in the great flood in the bible was caused by liberals.

[Thunder Dan]

Yes. People don't give a about anyone but themselves.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. My 4 yr old son and I were at Kiddie Park last fall having a really good time. My son wanted to rides on the WWII airplanes but he REALLY wanted to ride the blue one. Well we waited in line but someone in front of us got the blue plane so I gave my son a choice. Either he ride another one or wait again. I told him if we waited we would be first in line and we would get the blue plane. My boy told me " Daddy I'll wait my turn for the blue plane....".. During this conversation a dude with tattoos and wife beater were standing right next to us with his 3 yr old child. he heard my son's and my conversation quite clearly. Ride stops and guess what that bas did. He put his little girl over the fence walked in front of my son and put his little girl in the blue plane... my son turned to me and asked why he couldn't ride the blue plane. he told me that he waited his turn and that girl got his plane. I was so furious we had to walk away.. I thought to myslef what is this world coming to when a parent knowingly advocates cutting in line and cuts off a 4yr old on top of that..

That guy didn't give a about anyone else but himself. He taught his daughter that this was ok..

That is the American way though isn't it? I hate to be a pessimist, but look at the state of our country right now. We are direct reflections on what America has become. You don't have to look far either; look at our foreign policy, where we "free" Iraq, when we all know it is doing us more good than it is Iraq. Look at big busniess, most of the companies have turned so corrupt it's shameful, and why isn't anything done with it? Becuase the politicians we elect are just as corrupt as the busniesses are. It's all about money in our country. It's about me bettering myself over you. Sadley, it is what our country is, it's kill or be killed, and it's reflecting into our everyday lives, even when you want to ride the WWII planes.

[Mr. Peabody]

Yes. People don't give a about anyone but themselves.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. My 4 yr old son and I were at Kiddie Park last fall having a really good time. My son wanted to rides on the WWII airplanes but he REALLY wanted to ride the blue one. Well we waited in line but someone in front of us got the blue plane so I gave my son a choice. Either he ride another one or wait again. I told him if we waited we would be first in line and we would get the blue plane. My boy told me " Daddy I'll wait my turn for the blue plane....".. During this conversation a dude with tattoos and wife beater were standing right next to us with his 3 yr old child. he heard my son's and my conversation quite clearly. Ride stops and guess what that bas did. He put his little girl over the fence walked in front of my son and put his little girl in the blue plane... my son turned to me and asked why he couldn't ride the blue plane. he told me that he waited his turn and that girl got his plane. I was so furious we had to walk away.. I thought to myslef what is this world coming to when a parent knowingly advocates cutting in line and cuts off a 4yr old on top of that..

That guy didn't give a about anyone else but himself. He taught his daughter that this was ok..

Yeah, there's always going to be people like that and their kids will be worse of for it. A similar thing happened to me on Halloween. On Halloween, we have a big bowl full of candy in front of the house for the kids. I sit out front and when the kids walk up, I tell them that they can take a handful of candy. It's not a big deal because kids generally have small hands. Well, I had these two ladies walk up with their kids and as usual, I told the kids "Go ahead and grab a handful." The two ladies, not the kids, stuck their hands in and just took an obscene amount of candy out of the bowl. They literally took as much candy as they could possibly hold. I was like "What the f-ck." There's still other kids trick or treating and these ladies were being greedy es. Contrast that with other parents who tell their kids "Now don't take too much." It's sad that these are the lessons they're teaching their kids.

[Mr. Peabody]

Liberal teachers are better since they will allow their students to grow. Going to school isn't all about education, it's about growing into yourself, and gaining thoughts of your own. I don't think teachers are forcing liberal politics down their students' throats, but I think they allow their students to think freely on the subjects covered. I think this is a good thing to let students adapt and interpret the material as it applies to them.

Yeah, but I wasn't making a judgment call as to which is the better teacher. I was just asking why teachers tend to be liberal. Are they liberal before the job and that's why they take the job? Or, does the job make them liberal?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Yeah, but I wasn't making a judgment call as to which is the better teacher. I was just asking why teachers tend to be liberal. Are they liberal before the job and that's why they take the job? Or, does the job make them liberal?

My girlfriend has taught for over 10 yrs in a public elementary school. She is not a political person in anyway and does not indentify herself a democrat or republican. The only issue that really fires her up is when Tommy DeLay helped pass a law that teachers who participated in the state retirement program could not collect social security. this includes when a teacher's spouse dies they cannot collect that money either. she was like 'what the f*ck is up with Tom DeLay?" She takes a conservtaive view on somethings and a liberal view on others all while not really knowing. She really get's infuriated when she hears people blame teachers for the public education mess. She blames bad parenting because if a kid isn't disciplined at home they sure as won't be in school. So when these kids fail in school because of their out of control behaviour people like ray and Yoni come out and blame her and he fellow teachers for giving a bad education etc..

[Thunder Dan]

My girlfriend has taught for over 10 yrs in a public elementary school. She is not a political person in anyway and does not indentify herself a democrat or republican. The only issue that really fires her up is when Tommy DeLay helped pass a law that teachers who participated in the state retirement program could not collect social security. this includes when a teacher's spouse dies they cannot collect that money either. she was like 'what the f*ck is up with Tom DeLay?" She takes a conservtaive view on somethings and a liberal view on others all while not really knowing. She really get's infuriated when she hears people blame teachers for the public education mess. She blames bad parenting because if a kid isn't disciplined at home they sure as won't be in school. So when these kids fail in school because of their out of control behaviour people like ray and Yoni come out and blame her and he fellow teachers for giving a bad education etc..

My mom who has been a teacher for 33 years told me the other day that the "No Child Left Behind" bill was one of the dumbest bills ever passed by an American politician. I think that a mounting of different regulations like that have turned educators against the conservative side of our government.

[xrayzebra]

Yes. People don't give a about anyone but themselves.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. My 4 yr old son and I were at Kiddie Park last fall having a really good time. My son wanted to rides on the WWII airplanes but he REALLY wanted to ride the blue one. Well we waited in line but someone in front of us got the blue plane so I gave my son a choice. Either he ride another one or wait again. I told him if we waited we would be first in line and we would get the blue plane. My boy told me " Daddy I'll wait my turn for the blue plane....".. During this conversation a dude with tattoos and wife beater were standing right next to us with his 3 yr old child. he heard my son's and my conversation quite clearly. Ride stops and guess what that bas did. He put his little girl over the fence walked in front of my son and put his little girl in the blue plane... my son turned to me and asked why he couldn't ride the blue plane. he told me that he waited his turn and that girl got his plane. I was so furious we had to walk away.. I thought to myslef what is this world coming to when a parent knowingly advocates cutting in line and cuts off a 4yr old on top of that..

That guy didn't give a about anyone else but himself. He taught his daughter that this was ok..

GGA, do you find a parallel here. Like illegal
immigration. They want the blue airplane ahead of
those who wait patiently for their turn. And now,
may I ask, who wants to support those that want
the blue airplane? Not the conservatives.

[Thunder Dan]

GGA, do you find a parallel here. Like illegal
immigration. They want the blue airplane ahead of
those who wait patiently for their turn. And now,
may I ask, who wants to support those that want
the blue airplane? Not the conservatives.

I consider myself a liberal, however I do not condone illegal immigration. There is a process done to become a citizen of the United States, and that should not be overlooked. I do believe you must allow people from other countries the opportunity to be a citizen here if they can pass through the system the way it is set up. Those to disagree must forget that the only reason we have these freedoms we do are becuase our fore fathers were all immigrents, and this whole country was built and propelled by immigrents.

I think the problem with immigration comes from the security of our boarders, or lack there of. It infurates me to think that Mexicans can get across our boarders with little resistance. Are we not at war? Isn't the #1 thing you do when your at war is secure your own boarder? We spend billions on a stupid war that will end up doing us no good, but we can't figure out how to keep people out of our country? Thats my problem. I also think that there is no problem with kicking out any illegal aliens out of our country, because again, we have a immigration system in place for a reason, we have just not chose to follow it for years.

[George Gervin's Afro]

GGA, do you find a parallel here. Like illegal
immigration. They want the blue airplane ahead of
those who wait patiently for their turn. And now,
may I ask, who wants to support those that want
the blue airplane? Not the conservatives.

G.W. Bush 2 term Republican President

[George Gervin's Afro]

I consider myself a liberal, however I do not condone illegal immigration. There is a process done to become a citizen of the United States, and that should not be overlooked. I do believe you must allow people from other countries the opportunity to be a citizen here if they can pass through the system the way it is set up. Those to disagree must forget that the only reason we have these freedoms we do are becuase our fore fathers were all immigrents, and this whole country was built and propelled by immigrents.

I think the problem with immigration comes from the security of our boarders, or lack there of. It infurates me to think that Mexicans can get across our boarders with little resistance. Are we not at war? Isn't the #1 thing you do when your at war is secure your own boarder? We spend billions on a stupid war that will end up doing us no good, but we can't figure out how to keep people out of our country? Thats my problem. I also think that there is no problem with kicking out any illegal aliens out of our country, because again, we have a immigration system in place for a reason, we have just not chose to follow it for years.

I don't believe this bill grants amnesty like you here Ray say. Of course for emotional points opponents will say anything to kill something they don't like. I heard Tony Snow tell Sean Whannity last night that the 'amnesty rhetoric' was not an accurate assesment of what the bill intends. Whannity couldn't believe that Snow was telling him he was not factually correct. I think this was the first time I enjoyed hearing Tony Snow speak..

[Yonivore]

I don't believe this bill grants amnesty like you here Ray say. Of course for emotional points opponents will say anything to kill something they don't like. I heard Tony Snow tell Sean Whannity last night that the 'amnesty rhetoric' was not an accurate assesment of what the bill intends. Whannity couldn't believe that Snow was telling him he was not factually correct. I think this was the first time I enjoyed hearing Tony Snow speak..

Then tell us how this isn't amnesty.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Then tell us how this isn't amnesty.

from what I remember these folks aren't going to be given citizenship. There are many obstacles ( fees, course, english etc.) that are put into place to ensure that anyone who is interested in becoming a citizien must prove and earn it. Second a big part of the bill is the new law will require much more accountability on companies who hire these folks. these companies will be penalized severely when caught breaking the rules. Snow made the point that we need to know who these people are NOW so the bill addresses this.These illegals MUST make themsleves known to the govt because if they do not (in theory) they should not be able to find any work. I have limited understanding of what various work visas mean but when the illegals register they then apply for these temporary work visas. Snow made the point that you can't tackle only part of the problem and be successful. Snow also mentioned the the bill calls for more border patrol agents continuing the building of the wall to go along with more predator drones etc.. Not a perfect bill but not blanket amnesty either.

[Yonivore]

from what I remember these folks aren't going to be given citizenship. There are many obstacles ( fees, course, english etc.) that are put into place to ensure that anyone who is interested in becoming a citizien must prove and earn it.

None of which will be enforced and all of which is irrelevant since they don't want to become citizens -- they just want to stay here and work or live off our taxes. This bill allows them to remain in the United States pending all this crap that will never come to pass.

Second a big part of the bill is the new law will require much more accountability on companies who hire these folks. these companies will be penalized severely when caught breaking the rules. Snow made the point that we need to know who these people are NOW so the bill addresses this.These illegals MUST make themsleves known to the govt because if they do not (in theory) they should not be able to find any work. I have limited understanding of what various work visas mean but when the illegals register they then apply for these temporary work visas. Snow made the point that you can't tackle only part of the problem and be successful. Snow also mentioned the the bill calls for more border patrol agents continuing the building of the wall to go along with more predator drones etc.. Not a perfect bill but not blanket amnesty either.

The wall was mandated in earlier legislation and has yet to be built. Why should we believe than any of the security features of this bill will be done?

We shouldn't.

Security should come before amnesty. I like Newt Gingrich's plan.

Ten Simple, Direct Steps to a Legal American Immigration System

• Keep the 1986 Simpson-Mazzoli commitment and control the border. In The Reagan Diaries (HarperCollins, May 22, 2007), President Ronald Reagan wrote that he was going to sign the Simpson-Mazzoli bill because "it's high time we regained control of our borders and [this] bill will do this." For national security reasons, it is vital we regain control of our border. Congress should pass a narrowly written emergency border bill to finish the necessary fence in less than a year and to have complete border control within two years.

• Announce an immediate shift of Internal Revenue Service resources to audit companies that are deliberately hiring people illegally. We do not have to focus on deporting those who want to work. We need to focus on the Americans who are getting richer by deliberately breaking our laws, hiring people illegally and failing to pay taxes. These people are cheating their own country. We should focus on fining and making it economically impractical for Americans to deliberately encourage law breaking. Economic penalties for knowingly hiring someone who is illegal should rise dramatically with each employer (including subcontractors) conviction, making it simply too expensive to cheat. This will eliminate the magnet of illegal jobs, will begin to diminish the flow of new illegal workers and will lead some illegal workers to return home voluntarily.

• Outsource to American Express, Visa or MasterCard the job of building a real-time verification system so that honest companies can confirm the legal status of all workers and identify people with forged papers before they hire them as fast as your automatic teller machine identifies you and gives you money in a matter of seconds. We must distinguish between companies that deliberately hire illegal workers and companies that hire people who they believe are legal. It is the government's duty to help this second group of companies by providing a real-time verification system for identifying the legal status of all workers so that it is possible to screen out those with illegal do ents. The government should outsource the creation of this system so that it is easy, fast and accurate.

• Focus deportation efforts on criminals. Those who claim that opponents of the Bush-Kennedy-McCain bill support mass deportations are simply wrong. We want a system in which honest work is available for law-abiding workers and in which the natural attrition of declining job availability will reduce illegal behavior. However, there is one group that should be deported immediately, and the law should be modified to make it easy to do so. Criminals have no future in America. In every major city and increasingly in small cities and even small towns, gangs have become a problem and people feel a rising sense of insecurity. There are at least 30,000 illegal gang members now in the United States. The system should focus on deporting criminals so that people who are here illegally understand that breaking the law will get them deported immediately.

• Cut off all federal aid to any city, county or state that refuses to investigate if a criminal is here illegally. These so-called "sanctuary cities" are in effect abetting the violation of American law and increasing the risk to honest, law-abiding Americans. They should be cut off from all federal aid if they refuse to help enforce federal law.

• Offer intensive education in English to anyone who wants to learn English, and make English the official language of government. This will begin to reassert the commitment to assimilation and Americanization that has historically been part of legal immigration to America.

• Ensure that becoming an American citizen requires passing a test on American history in English and giving up the right to vote in any other country.

• Within the context of these proven changes, establish an economically driven temporary worker program like the Krieble Foundation proposals. Any temporary worker would have to pass a background check to ensure they are not a criminal, would have to give biometric information (retinal scan and thumbprint) for a special card that would be outsourced to American Express, MasterCard or Visa so it would be harder to defraud and counterfeit, and would have to sign a contract committing them to pay taxes and obey the law or be removed from the United States within two weeks without recourse to long court processes.

• Create a special open-ended worker visa for high value workers who bring specialized education, entrepreneurial talent or capital that will grow the American economy and make America a more prosperous country.

• Workers who came here illegally but have a good work relationship and community ties (including family), should have first opportunity to get the new temporary worker visas, but instead of paying penalties, they should be required to go home and get the visa at home. This way they are beginning their new career in America by obeying the law. It is amazing that those who advocate a large fine and the new Z visa, which would be administered in a hopelessly expedited manner, suggest that going home to get a new legal admission to the U.S. is somehow too complicated. If people can break the law by entering the county illegally, they should be able to obey the law and enter America legally.

These 10 steps would lead to a controlled border, a profound revitalization of the core values of American civilization, a renewed respect for the law and an economically driven system of legal temporary workers in an orderly and controllable manner.

This program would work vastly better than the dishonest and hopelessly complex Bush-Kennedy-McCain proposal now being pushed so hard by the establishment against the wishes of most Americans.

Newt Gingrich, June 18, 2007
(c) 2997 Eagle Publishing Company

I think he's right.

[Ballcox]

My mom who has been a teacher for 33 years told me the other day that the "No Child Left Behind" bill was one of the dumbest bills ever passed by an American politician. I think that a mounting of different regulations like that have turned educators against the conservative side of our government.

My wife is also a teacher, for almost 9 years now. And in listening to her it is very evident that our educational system is in serious trouble. Teachers are having to pass kids to the next grade, they don't get support from their administrators, and feel that they're basically on an island with no support. Honestly, I don't know how they do it on a daily basis, I don't think I would make it one year as a teacher.

I also liked the story about the individual who had his kid cut in line to ride the plane. It's small examples like that which make me worry more and more.

I want to teach my children to live by upstanding principles in their life, to remember common courtesy and respect towards others. But then at the same time I worry that I'm not really preparing my kids for the kind of world they seem to be entering into in the near future.

That's when I'm tempted to say to with it, I need to just teach my kids to take advantage of those weaker than you, manipulate others, do whatever it takes to get ahead/succeed. This type of thought process along with the world we live in creates a great deal of anxiety and stress for me as a parent. I'm going to keep taking the high road as much as possible and hopefully infuse my kids with enough commone sense to deal with knuckleheads when they have to in the manner they deem necessary, while still keeping the core vaule/belief system that I've also tried to instill in them.

Does that even make sense? Sometimes it's too much uncertainty to deal with.

[mullet]

Yes. People don't give a about anyone but themselves.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. My 4 yr old son and I were at Kiddie Park last fall having a really good time. My son wanted to rides on the WWII airplanes but he REALLY wanted to ride the blue one. Well we waited in line but someone in front of us got the blue plane so I gave my son a choice. Either he ride another one or wait again. I told him if we waited we would be first in line and we would get the blue plane. My boy told me " Daddy I'll wait my turn for the blue plane....".. During this conversation a dude with tattoos and wife beater were standing right next to us with his 3 yr old child. he heard my son's and my conversation quite clearly. Ride stops and guess what that bas did. He put his little girl over the fence walked in front of my son and put his little girl in the blue plane... my son turned to me and asked why he couldn't ride the blue plane. he told me that he waited his turn and that girl got his plane. I was so furious we had to walk away.. I thought to myslef what is this world coming to when a parent knowingly advocates cutting in line and cuts off a 4yr old on top of that..

That guy didn't give a about anyone else but himself. He taught his daughter that this was ok..

If you had had your gun on your hip I bet that soma wouldn't have cut in line.

[George Gervin's Afro]

None of which will be enforced and all of which is irrelevant since they don't want to become citizens -- they just want to stay here and work or live off our taxes. This bill allows them to remain in the United States pending all this crap that will never come to pass.


The wall was mandated in earlier legislation and has yet to be built. Why should we believe than any of the security features of this bill will be done?

We shouldn't.

Security should come before amnesty. I like Newt Gingrich's plan.


I think he's right.

Well you may be right but to say this bill means automatic amnesty is not totally correct.

[xrayzebra]

My girlfriend has taught for over 10 yrs in a public elementary school. She is not a political person in anyway and does not indentify herself a democrat or republican. The only issue that really fires her up is when Tommy DeLay helped pass a law that teachers who participated in the state retirement program could not collect social security. this includes when a teacher's spouse dies they cannot collect that money either. she was like 'what the f*ck is up with Tom DeLay?" She takes a conservtaive view on somethings and a liberal view on others all while not really knowing. She really get's infuriated when she hears people blame teachers for the public education mess. She blames bad parenting because if a kid isn't disciplined at home they sure as won't be in school. So when these kids fail in school because of their out of control behaviour people like ray and Yoni come out and blame her and he fellow teachers for giving a bad education etc..

Well in the first place, the teachers must opt out of
social security. (as a group, no individually) I know of no law that prohibits them
from participating in social security. State retirement
has not/does not now stopped anyone from participating
in social security. Now there are laws about federal
employees and there was a law passed about stopping
state employees that had opted out of social security
from using a loop hole that would allow them to take
jobs that were covered by social security on the last
few days of employment with a school system so that
they could get social security. You might want to be
more specific in your comments.

[xrayzebra]

G.W. Bush 2 term Republican President

GGA, does it bother you that I agree with you one
hundred percent. Because I do. And have so advised
him of my feelings.

[xrayzebra]

from what I remember these folks aren't going to be given citizenship. There are many obstacles ( fees, course, english etc.) that are put into place to ensure that anyone who is interested in becoming a citizien must prove and earn it. Second a big part of the bill is the new law will require much more accountability on companies who hire these folks. these companies will be penalized severely when caught breaking the rules. Snow made the point that we need to know who these people are NOW so the bill addresses this.These illegals MUST make themsleves known to the govt because if they do not (in theory) they should not be able to find any work. I have limited understanding of what various work visas mean but when the illegals register they then apply for these temporary work visas. Snow made the point that you can't tackle only part of the problem and be successful. Snow also mentioned the the bill calls for more border patrol agents continuing the building of the wall to go along with more predator drones etc.. Not a perfect bill but not blanket amnesty either.

Once the bill is passed it will make them legal to be in
the United States. They can apply for the z-visa and it
is renewable. They have no reason to apply for
citizenship since all privileges of citizenship, except,
voting will be given to them. And the above exemption,
voting, will follow shortly thereafter. Many of them have
no desire to be citizens. And really does it matter.
They have broken the law to get here, jumped the line,
and only want to bring the culture here, which has
already happened in many areas already.

[Yonivore]

Well you may be right but to say this bill means automatic amnesty is not totally correct.

They don't have to leave and there's exactly zero chance of suffering any consequences.

In fact, they can stay guilt-free.

That my friend, is amnesty.

[clambake]

Why not make the illegals build the wall, from the Mexican side of the border?