Bush Commutes Libby Prison Sentence

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Well, as for me, I think the president's decision today was the right thing to do. Libby committed a "process crime" that harmed no one -- except for the ins ution of justice; something many in government have been doing with impugnity for quite some time.

Yoni, what Bush did today was bull and if you weren't being so ing partisan, you'd admit it.

[DarkReign]

Well we will see when Mr. Bush has his last day then we will be able to compare. Most Presidents do the pardon's on their last day in office.

A solid point. We'll see on his last day.

Just because the previous s bag president pardoned other s bags, doesnt mean the next president should.

But alas, this isnt politics anymore as much as some of you would like to believe, its about $$ and information. You must have one or both to make it with the big dogs.

My guess, Libby has info. Info that certain people want kept to himself.

President pardons (terribly predictable), Libby stays quiet and lives the rest of his life on Happy Road sipping Pinacoladas with that big, bad felony ring around his neck.

Oh shucks, he cant vote anymore. Like thats ever made a difference.

[DarkReign]

I just wanted to hear you clarify.

For the record, I think what Bush did today was bull . I also think Clinton's pardoning spree was bull .

I'm just tired of jackasses like boutons holding Bush and Co. to one standard while completely ignoring it for those on their side of the aisle.

Honestly, I'm sick of all the politicians in D.C. The disconnect between politicians and the general American public has never been greater than it is today.

Those assholes have no perspective relative to what anyone on this board or any other American has. And it's even creeped to the state level, with guys like Perry getting bought off by Cintra for the TTC.

It's all bull , and has this country on the express lane to ruin. I hate to be this cynical, but it's gotten to the point if some terrorists blew up Congress they'd probably be doing us all a favor.

Holy... ing !

FINALLY! This isnt Dem vs Rep, its Us vs Them. You can either suck their like a good toadie (Yoni, Boutons, etc) or at least acknowledge that our masters never had any interest in Us or America in general.

What to do about it? Those are conversations better left off of internet forums.

[Yonivore]

I wonder, though, if you'd feel the same way if this was a Democrat President (say, President Clinton, for instance) and the convicted official was Al Gore's Chief of Staff. I suspect that if that question was answered genuinely by everyone who posts here, the ideologues among us would view an action like today's very differently -- right-wingers would see the act as an abuse of office or some such, while left-wingers would see it as a wholly justified act, likely for the very reasons that you cite.

We'll (hopefully) never have to find out what a President Gore would have done. But, tangentially to this whole discussion is the fact that Presidential Pardons and Commutations are cons utional and, thus, a perfectly legitimate part of the legal system.

I think the arguments are ideological alone. Where we (those who support President Bush's decision) can articulate a reasonable justification for President Bush commuting Libby's sentence (to which you allude below), I believe President Clinton would have a more difficult time justifying Marc Rich's or, for that matter, some of the other pardons granted on his last day in office.

Personally, I don't think this decision is that nuanced. I think the White House knows it would face a major blowup if Libby had been fully pardoned and understood that the better way to deal with this politically was to commute the sentence.

I think you'll be proven right if President Bush issues a pardon at the end of his term. Something that is still available in this case. But, I think you'll have to concede it was a much more thoughtful resolution if, after President Bush leaves office, Scooter Libby is still a convicted felon, on probation, and paying out his fine.

I don't disagree with your premise that prison time for Libby would have been mostly for show and not aimed at achieving any real end. That's why I noted initially that I don't really care about this. (and I mis-spoke in my original post -- I meant to say that I couldn't care less about this). It's a non-story made into a story only by virtue of the iden ies of those involved.

There are far greater ills being visited upon our society by this Administration, IMO, than commuting the sentences of bureaucrats.

That's fair, although we'd probably disagree on what you consider to be "far greater ills."

[Yonivore]

Yoni, what Bush did today was bull and if you weren't being so ing partisan, you'd admit it.

Explain why it's bull ? But, before you do that, explain why the framers of the Cons ution gave the president the power to pardon and commute.

I eagerly await your lesson on bull presidential powers.

[PixelPusher]

Bush 41, circa 1999: “I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious of traitors.”

Bush 43, circa 2003:
“If there’s a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is . . . If the person has violated law, that person will be taken care of.”

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Explain why it's bull ? But, before you do that, explain why the framers of the Cons ution gave the president the power to pardon and commute.

I eagerly await your lesson on bull presidential powers.

Spare me this Framers bull . The Framers put that provision into place because they lived in a time where the aristocracy in Europe would wrongly incriminate and condemn people.

They wanted to give the president an out to protect people from partisan bull and witch hunts.

Libby is guilty, it's not even a disputed fact. The pardon today had everything to do with the fact that Libby has dirt on other prominent Republicans, probably even Cheney and Bush. It had nothing to do with being excessive or protecting an innocent man.

$250K punishment? For Libby? Are you ing kidding me? That's chump change for someone in his position, the lobbyists have probably already cut the check.

Now that I answered your question, answer mine. Why the do you feel Libby should have been spared prison time? He could have gotten someone killed with what he did.

I remember you many a time claiming Clinton should be impeached for what he did. Clinton should have been impeached, but Libby should get off free for what he did and Bush should cover for him?

That's bull . But who am I kidding, you're a Republican kiss ass and can't see what's happening to this country.

[Yonivore]

Spare me this Framers bull . The Framers put that provision into place because they lived in a time where the aristocracy in Europe would wrongly incriminate and condemn people.

They wanted to give the president an out to protect people from partisan bull and witch hunts.

Exactly.

Libby is guilty, it's not even a disputed fact. The pardon today had everything to do with the fact that Libby has dirt on other prominent Republicans, probably even Cheney and Bush. It had nothing to do with being excessive or protecting an innocent man.

First it wasn't a pardon. He's still a convicted felon. Second, what kind of dirt?

$250K punishment? For Libby? Are you ing kidding me? That's chump change for someone in his position, the lobbyists have probably already cut the check.

I can see where a fan of Democrats might have this impression of government employees. However, it might surprise you to find out many actually draw a salary with which they pay their bills. And, I doubt Libby's approached $250K a year.

Now that I answered your question, answer mine. Why the do you feel Libby should have been spared prison time?

I've already explained the "process crime" concept.

He could have gotten someone killed with what he did.

Really? Who?

I remember you many a time claiming Clinton should be impeached for what he did.

Yep.

Clinton should have been impeached, but Libby should get off free for what he did and Bush should cover for him?

Well, aside from the differences between pardon and commutation that you seem to have trouble understanding, there's a difference between a sitting president committing a crime and an employee. Libby can't be impeached.

That's bull . But who am I kidding, you're a Republican kiss ass and can't see what's happening to this country.

Actually, I'm still a Libertarian.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I can see where a fan of Democrats might have this impression of government employees. However, it might surprise you to find out many actually draw a salary with which they pay their bills. And, I doubt Libby's approached $250K a year.

It has nothing to do with being a fan of the democrats. Do you even ing read, or are you the conservative version of the boutons bot? Good lord, I have defended Bush and the Republicans about as much as can be done in the past, but I'm more of a centrist and call it as I see it.

Trust me, I'm sick of both parties equally, I just find the liberals to be a *tad* more hypocritical, and definitely more socialistic.

See, your comments are the type of that pisses me off. You act like you're so much ing smarter than everyone else. You'd be a great politician, because you have that condescending "I'm always right" going on.

It might surprise me to find many make a salary? The you say! This isn't about their government paycheck you ing nitwit, it's about all the money that changes hands behind the scenes.

I don't know if you're that ing ignorant, or just a partisan zealot. Or maybe some of both. Either way, spare me the holier than thou , I deal with politicians every hour and every day of my work week, 52 weeks a year.

[Yonivore]

It has nothing to do with being a fan of the democrats. Do you even ing read, or are you the conservative version of the boutons bot?

Trust me, I'm sick of both parties equally, I just find the liberals to be a *tad* more hypocritical, and definitely more socialistic.

Well, at least you're that smart.

See, your comments are the type of that pisses me off. You act like you're so much ing smarter than everyone else. You'd be a great politician, because you have that condescending "I'm always right" going on.

You're pissed off? Who cares?

It might surprise me to find many make a salary? The you say! This isn't about their government paycheck you ing nitwit, it's about all the money that changes hands behind the scenes.

I don't know if you're that ing ignorant, or just a partisan zealot. Or maybe some of both. Either way, spare me the holier than thou , I deal with politicians every hour and every day of my work week, 52 weeks a year.

Sounds like you've witnessed some crimes your not reporting...if, in fact, you've witnessed such "behind the scenes" money deals.

[Yonivore]

Marc Rich, 1984 superseding indictment Wire fraud, mail fraud, racketeering, racketeering conspiracy, criminal forfeiture, income tax evasion, and trading with Iran in violation of trade embargo, 18 U.S.C. §§ 1343, 1341, 1962(c), 1962(d), 1963, and 2; 26 U.S.C. § 7201, 50 U.S.C. § 1705, and 31 C.F.R. §§ 535.206(a)(4), 535.208 and 535.701

Yeah, just like Libby who, by the way, only had his sentence commuted.

PARDONS GRANTED BY PRESIDENT CLINTON to see the other few hundred.

[Jamtas#2]

Some reaction to President Bush's decision Monday to commute the sentence of former White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, sparing him from a 2 1/2-year prison term in the CIA leak case.

---

"In this case, an experienced federal judge considered extensive argument from the parties and then imposed a sentence consistent with the applicable laws. It is fundamental to the rule of law that all citizens stand before the bar of justice as equals. That principle guided the judge during both the trial and the sentencing." - Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald.

---

"When it comes to the law, there should not be two sets of rules - one for President Bush and Vice President Cheney and another for the rest of America. Even Paris Hilton had to go to jail. No one in this administration should be above the law." - Sen. Durbin, D-Ill.

---

"While for a long time I have urged a pardon for Scooter, I respect the president's decision. This will allow a good American, who has done a lot for his country, to resume his life." - Former Sen. Fred Thompson, R-Tenn.

---

"Accountability has been in short supply in the Bush administration, and this commutation fits that pattern." - Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt.

---

"President Bush did the right thing today in commuting the prison term for Scooter Libby. The prison sentence was overly harsh and the punishment did not fit the crime." - House Republican Whip Roy Blunt of Missouri.

---

"This is exactly the kind of politics we must change so we can begin restoring the American people's faith in a government that puts the country's progress ahead of the bitter partisanship of recent years." - Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill.

---

"After evaluating the facts, the president came to a reasonable decision and I believe the decision was correct." - former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani.

---

"Only a president clinically incapable of understanding that mistakes have consequences could take the action he did today. President Bush has just sent exactly the wrong signal to the country and the world." - former Sen. John Edwards, D-N.C.

---

"The Cons ution gives President Bush the power to commute sentences, but history will judge him harshly for using that power to benefit his own vice president's chief of staff who was convicted of such a serious violation of law." - Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev.

---

"This commutation sends the clear signal that in this administration, cronyism and ideology trump competence and justice." - Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y.

---

"The president said he would hold accountable anyone involved in the Valerie Plame leak case. By his action today, the president shows his word is not to be believed." - House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif.

---

"It is time for the American people to be heard - I call for all Americans to flood the White House with phone calls tomorrow expressing their outrage over this blatant disregard for the rule of law." - Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del.

---

"President Bush's 11th-hour commutation of Scooter Libby's sentence makes a mockery of the justice system and betrays the idea that all Americans are expected to be held accountable for their actions, even close friends of Vice President Cheney." - Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass.

---

"By commuting Scooter Libby's sentence, the president continues to abdicate responsibility for the actions of his administration. The only ones paying the price for this administration's actions are the American people." - Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn.

---

"This decision sends the wrong message about the rule of law in the United States, just as the president is meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin. How can we hold the line against injustices in other countries when our own executive branch deliberately sets out to smear its critics, lies about it and then wriggles away without having to pay the price in prison?" - Rep. Tom Lantos, D-Calif.

---

"The arrogance of this administration's disdain for the law and its belief it operates with impunity are breathtaking. Will the president also commute the sentences of others who obstructed justice and lied to grand juries, or only those who act to protect President Bush and Vice President Cheney?" - New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson.link

Let's see how people feel about this..quick everyone with a "D" by your le, bash Bush...everyone with an "R" defend him...

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

You're pissed off? Who cares?

Do you feel our country is being led in the right direction?

, the approval rating for our president is at 30%, Congress is 25%. They have a word for that in Europe. France.

Sounds like you've witnessed some crimes your not reporting...if, in fact, you've witnessed such "behind the scenes" money deals.

Me personally, no. I have seen potential clients swayed by gambling trips to Vegas, hooker runs across the border to Matamoros, 'marketing reps' going back to rooms with married men, etc. - all in moves by our compe ion to steal business.

You just don't get it. It's about how these people (politicians) are wired. They don't think or act like you or me or anyone on this site, especially on the federal level. If you can't do something for them, they don't even want to talk to you.

Answer me this Yoni:

1. Do you feel that all of our Congressmen/women are ethical?

2. Do you feel that the majority of those in Congress have or have not taken money from special interests?

Do you realize that running for president of this country is approaching being a billion dollar campaign? Do you think that those making donations are doing so because they like the guy/gal? no, they're doing it for access to the office and all the 'perks' being a money backer of the president bring.

I really don't know what to say, you're as conservative and clueless as boutons is mindless and liberal.

[exstatic]

"When it comes to the law, there should not be two sets of rules - one for President Bush and Vice President Cheney and another for the rest of America. Even Paris Hilton had to go to jail. No one in this administration should be above the law." - Sen. Durbin, D-Ill.

Paris obviously didn't donate enough to the Bush campaign. That, or being an administration flunky will get you one of these...

[Extra Stout]

You just don't get it. It's about how these people (politicians) are wired. They don't think or act like you or me or anyone on this site, especially on the federal level. If you can't do something for them, they don't even want to talk to you.

Do you realize that running for president of this country is approaching being a billion dollar campaign? Do you think that those making donations are doing so because they like the guy/gal? no, they're doing it for access to the office and all the 'perks' being a money backer of the president bring.

I really don't know what to say, you're as conservative and clueless as boutons is mindless and liberal.

In pretty much every Latin American country, one political party appeals to the lowest common denominator by trading patronage and handouts for votes, and the other exists solely to exploit and manipulate the entire populace of the nation in the service of a small wealthy oligarchy.

How blessed we are to live in the United States, which is nothing like that at all.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Bush should've just completely pardoned the guy. It wouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone if he had.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

In pretty much every Latin American country, one political party appeals to the lowest common denominator by trading patronage and handouts for votes, and the other exists solely to exploit and manipulate the entire populace of the nation in the service of a small wealthy oligarchy.

How blessed we are to live in the United States, which is nothing like that at all.

I was waiting for you to weigh in on this, good post

[George Gervin's Afro]

What? The conviction stands, he's still on the hook for the $250,000 fine, and he's a felon for the rest of his life.

I think it's a fair resolution.

But, on the other hand, I also believe the lefty outrage over this can only push the President's conservative polling number up. Thanks!

So can we all agree that lying under oath is a bad thing? If anyone does it they deserved to be punished.

[Yonivore]

So can we all agree that lying under oath is a bad thing? If anyone does it they deserved to be punished.

I agree.

[spurster]

Restoring integrity and character to the White House?

[Jamtas#2]

Restoring integrity and character to the White House?

We need to address our Congress first (both parties). Get the money out of Congress and we'll be better off. An ethical Congress that works for the good of the people rather than the good of a party would be the best remedy.

[Yonivore]

Do you feel our country is being led in the right direction?

, the approval rating for our president is at 30%, Congress is 25%. They have a word for that in Europe. France.

Me personally, no. I have seen potential clients swayed by gambling trips to Vegas, hooker runs across the border to Matamoros, 'marketing reps' going back to rooms with married men, etc. - all in moves by our compe ion to steal business.

You just don't get it. It's about how these people (politicians) are wired. They don't think or act like you or me or anyone on this site, especially on the federal level. If you can't do something for them, they don't even want to talk to you.

Answer me this Yoni:

1. Do you feel that all of our Congressmen/women are ethical?

2. Do you feel that the majority of those in Congress have or have not taken money from special interests?

Do you realize that running for president of this country is approaching being a billion dollar campaign? Do you think that those making donations are doing so because they like the guy/gal? no, they're doing it for access to the office and all the 'perks' being a money backer of the president bring.

I really don't know what to say, you're as conservative and clueless as boutons is mindless and liberal.

I've read this response a couple of times and still can't find how it's related to the Libby commutation or the subject of the executive prerogative to pardon criminals and commute sentences.

Nice use of your time.

[Yonivore]

The Cons ution gives the president the exclusive and unfettered (except for cases of impeachment) privilege to pardon and to commute sentences. There is nothing said about any criteria needing to be met such as a belief in innocence as has been suggested by some in here.

The problem is that there are no formal or informally agreed upon standards with which to evaluate a president's decision in these cases. We can look at the practices of past presidents, -- and we're doing that in this forum -- but it's a very imperfect guide. For example, we wouldn't want our presidents to emulate President Clinton's practice of pardoning those whose family members contributed to his presidential library.

But, in the Libby case, there are several factors that -- for me -- seem to speak in favor of commuting the sentence (and made out an arguable, though less compelling, case for a pardon). The two most important factors are Libby's public service and the fact that, at the time Libby made the false statements in question, the prosecutor already knew the answer to the question he had come to Washington to investigate.

Indeed, it seems likely that but for the high profile and political context of the investigation, the prosecutor would not have asked Libby these questions at all.

The left's hyperventilating over this is more amusing than anything. Watching George Stephanopolous gnash on about the abuse of power, this morning, was downright irony.

[boutons_]

"Libby's public service"

... has really been an Repug partisan political operative, and henchman for head.

"Libby made the false statements in question, the prosecutor already knew the answer to the question he had come to Washington to investigate."

Starr knew Clinton has sex with Lewinsky, but he hounded Clinton anyway. There were tons of questions, esp about consensual sex between legal adults, that should have never been aksed of Clinton at all.

dubya sniffed in his first pres campaing at how immoral and lax Clinton was, dubya thinks God put him in the WH, "born again" dubya exploits his alleged religiousty to pander to the dumb "Christian" right, but when the moral/ethical chips are in play, dubya is no better than Clinton.

[Yonivore]

Here's a defense of Bush's commutation...

Article II of the Cons ution gives the president broad and unreviewable power to grant “Reprieves and Pardons” for all offenses against the United States. The Supreme Court has ruled that the pardon power is granted “[t]o the [president] . . ., and it is granted without limit“ (United States v. Klein). Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes declared that “[a] pardon . . . is . . . the determination of the ultimate authority that the public welfare will be better served by [the pardon] . . .” (Biddle v. Perovich). A president may conclude a pardon or commutation is warranted for several reasons: the desire to restore full citizenship rights, including voting, to people who have served their sentences and lived within the law since; a belief that a sentence was excessive or unjust; personal cir stances that warrant compassion; or other unique cir stances.

The exercise of executive clemency is inherently controversial. The reason the framers of our Cons ution vested this broad power in the Executive Branch was to assure that the president would have the freedom to do what he deemed to be the right thing, regardless of how unpopular a decision might be. Some of the uses of the power have been extremely controversial, such as President Washington’s pardons of leaders of the Whiskey Rebellion, President Harding’s commutation of the sentence of Eugene Debs, President Nixon’s commutation of the sentence of James Hoffa, President Ford’s pardon of former President Nixon, President Carter’s pardon of Vietnam War draft resisters, and President Bush’s 1992 pardon of six Iran-contra defendants, including former Defense Secretary Weinberger, which assured the end of that investigation.