Maybe Shirley shouldnt take that weak in there..hence why he is writing books instead of playing in the NBA
I agree with the bolded 100%.
I just find it more striking that some scrub who couldn't make it in the NBA is trying to cash in on the story by going after one of the games best players. It seems like every time I hear Shirley talk or read something of his, he's attacking those who are succesful or making excuses for why they're succesful. That's why I take this story with a grain of salt. It just seems like more sour grapes from the guy who didn't get picked.
I've always been a fan of MJ since I was little...my brother was huge Bulls fan. But I don't know much about his personality. Recently, I've read posts about how rude he was to his teammates...
Is that true? What kind of personality off the court did MJ have?
Just curious...
(p.s. Before everyone expresses their shock of me not knowing what is obvious to others, I'm a girl...therefore, I don't know too much about specific players...lol. So be nice.)
all great ones are jerks...kobe, kj, tyson, bonds etc
Kobe is a victum of his own actions.
"I think he talks because he feels like he has to talk," Allen said. "He's out there playing, and if he does something good I feel like he needs to pat himself on the back because to me, it seems like he's isolated out there. As much as it's five-on-five, I don't see much camaraderie going on out there with his teammates."
I read that and said to myself, he brought that on himself. When he got caught a few years ago, his first exuse was "Shaq does it all the time".
The first thing he did when he got caught cheating was to throw a teammate under the bus. There are some things that guys can get over, this is not one of them. That is a MAJOR VIOLATION of the guy code.
He needs teammates to be successful, the media are telling him he needs to teammates, but the truth is he doesn't care about his teammates and when his chips are down he has no problem throwing one of them under the bus after airing their dirty laundry, they all know this.
Kobe has brought this on himself. I feel absolutly nothing for him, he could die and I wouldn't care, he could win als and I would not care. I am a Laker fan having grown up in Newport beach during the Showtime days, but right now I can not watch the Lakers, they made the wrong choice ... Every one knew it was the wrong choice and did it anyway ...
Its a sore spot with me .. Sorry.
I guess you forgot the part that they lost 2 years in a row before they traded Shaq. well..everyone forgot that part for some reason. Lakers fans forget that they NEEDED to make a change cuz they were failing miserably and when contracts are coming to end, decisions needed to be made. Was keeping Kobe the right chioce..i think so
I never really knew much about him off the court until I started hanging around this board a bit. Just from what I've read (mostly from here) he's cheated on his wife, had a major gambling problem (a few here have hinted that might have been connected to his father's death), and punched Steve Kerr. Also on ESPN Classic's "Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame Jerry Kraus for the Bulls Downfall" they talked about how much of a MJ was to Kraus and basically turned the team against the management to make it 'his' team.
Also, he drafted Kwame Brown.
a faker then a _allas fan?
No, a Laker fan then a Dallas fan. You should learn to spell.
Unless your trying to say that the Showtime Lakers were "fakers" or that the Mavs, dispite their Coach and improved defensive play that puts them in the 10 in the league actually plays no defense. Was that what you were trying to say?
I am also a fan of the Card's, Blue's and Ram's ... of all my fav teams, I think that only the Blues warrent somethoughts
Last edited by Dalhoop; 07-16-2007 at 08:57 PM. Reason: Because I don't want to post twice
You can be an asshole when you win six rings.
You have less leverage when you only win half that many and piss off the man who helped you win those three so much that he leaves town and wins another one with someone else.
it's not necessarily that Jordan was a jerk, it's that he is ultra-compe ive and could never accept losing. On the court and towards his teammates he could be a major jerk and bully, but it was all due to his desire to win. Off the court, from what I've seen, he was an incredibly generous and nice person.
if you're interested, I'd recommend two books.
One is The Jordan Rules by Sam Smith. This one exposes alot of Jordan's "other side" that he doesn't show to the public. This one focuses alot more on the negative aspects of Jordan but it isn't completely biased against him, it shows him in a good light as well.
The other is Playing For Keeps by David Halberstam. This is another book that shows every side of Jordan, but this one portrays him in a little more positive light.
I would rank the top 5 SF in NBA history:
1) Larry Bird
2) Elgin Baylor
3) Julius Erving
4) George Gervin
5) Nique
But Pippen isn’t all that far off the top 5, you can argue that he is #5 in place of Nique, as can Rick Barry. In my eyes, he is > Worthy, Alex English and Dave Debusschere.
Pippen is better than any of the top SFs in the history of league defensively, and he directs the offense better than most (other than Bird of course). He is not a traditional SF and much more of a point forward.
Pippen’s defense was stellar in 94 and 95 when Jordan had that famous 2 year break from the hardwood, and single-handedly change the series against the Lakers in 91 with his defense on Magic from Game 2 to 5 (The Lakers squeaked out a win in Game 1 on the road with Worthy and Scott struggling, largely because Magic destroyed Jordan on the low blocks.) Age caught up with him, and Kobe Bryant used him when the Lakers faced off the Rockets in the playoffs (was it 98?)
Paul Shirley is the same guy who says the Suns play incredible defense, second to only the Spurs.
did he really say that? or was that a tongue in cheek remark? i hope it was.
during Jordan's 2 year suspension from the league for gambling, Pippen proved himself to be a very very nice player, but not a superstar by any stretch. Certainly not a top 50 player or a top 5 SF. This was the time period of the infamous "Kukoc incident" where he refused to play the final seconds of a game b/c he wasn't going to get the final shot. That tells me alot more about where Pippen belongs in the history of the association than anything else he did.
at the suspension comment.
During those 2 years, Pippen led the Bulls to 55 wins and the 2nd round of the playoffs. While not a championship contender, the Bulls did nicely without one of the top 5 players in the history of the league.
On an individual level, he was 1st team defense, All-Star MVP, and if I remember correctly, finished in the top 3 in MVP voting (maybe it was top 5). There was absolutely no doubt that he was a bona fide superstar those two years.
As for the Kukoc incident, his way of handling the situation was destructive to the team, and it speaks to his enormous ego, BUT it doesn't discount him as a top SF based on 1 play in a 15 year career.
Well said, I agree. At his peak, Pippen was one of the top-10 players, top-five players in the League, and he's certainly one of the top-50 players in League history. The Bulls never won a le without Jordan, but they never won a le without Pippen either. I doubt very much that Pippen as your #1 guy could take you to a le, let alone six, but there's no doubt that he could carry a team to 50+ wins and deep into the playoffs in the top dog role -- he proved that when Jordan was out.
During those 2 years, Pippen led the Bulls to 55 wins and the 2nd round of the playoffs. While not a championship contender, the Bulls did nicely without one of the top 5 players in the history of the league.
On an individual level, he was 1st team defense, All-Star MVP, and if I remember correctly, finished in the top 3 in MVP voting (maybe it was top 5). There was absolutely no doubt that he was a bona fide superstar those two years.
As for the Kukoc incident, his way of handling the situation was destructive to the team, and it speaks to his enormous ego, BUT it doesn't discount him as a top SF based on 1 play in a 15 year career.
there's probably 100 or more players in NBA history i'd rather have on my team than Pippen. Jordan is the sole reason people lick his balls this much. Without Jordan, Pippen never blossoms like he did. It's nice that he played so well without Mike around, but again, his team was never a serious contender for the le, and they never would have been.
He's the greatest Tonto in NBA History. That's about as much as can be said about him. Give me a second-tier Lone Ranger over the greatest Tonto any day.
Pippen plays a great complimentary role, and he is not meant to be a leader. His mentality doesn't allow it. He is like TMac, Garnett, or maybe even Dirk in this regard. Amazing talent, but just not meant to be a leader.
I agree that Pippen probably would never have been a top 10 SF if it wasn't for Jordan, and the main reason is because he would be forced into a leadership role in which he is not the best at, he would probably be another Shawn Marion or Bob McAdoo, but the fact is he did blossom under Jordan and played great even without him.
i thought this was a Kobe/Allen thread. =P
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