"Hindsight is 20/20."
absolute bull .
Shinsheki testied in Congress that Iraq would take 400K troops.
Some CIA/NSA analysis predicted that Iraq could fall into sectarian violence.
There was NO post-invasion planning, other than Rummy saying only 30K - 40K troops left in Iraq by Sep 03.
ALL of the negative scenarios indicating ultimate prudence,competence,and execution were ignored by the Repugs because all they could see was a weakened Saddam as an easy pushover leading to all those oil reserves.
The Repugs got EVERYTHING wrong about Iraq, BEFORE they invaded and AFTER they invaded, leading up the disaster we have now, with the "Petraeus surge" nothing but a delay to push withdrawal past 20 Jan 09.
We have a moral resposibility to Iraq now? We had a moral responsibility BEFORE we invaded and broke their country to do it with good justification (there was none) and with enough resources (there weren't enough) and with competence (there was none).
Let me guess ray you believe the remaining dead enders? In all honesty ray it's hard to know who to believe. Unlike you i don't find someone I agree with and then base my whole argument on that person's opinion. let me ask you this question. Why should I believe people like you and yoni when you have been wrong all the way up until now? Get back to me on that one ray
But, at least we source our beliefs with actual facts. Where do you get your facts?
Seriously. I just pointed out in this thread, by putting two news articles next to the actual NIE language, how the media is supporting your narrative by bending the truth. So, where do you get your information, GGA?
Blaming the media again? Was it the media who didn't have a viable post war plan? which side of this argument has had to continually revise why we are there and how things are going? I have heard from day one that things are better than it is being reported..yet we have the military telling us now that the only solution to this mess is a political one.. yet you are still clinging to the notion that Iraq is Al-Qaeda's central fron to the war on terror. You are even using a terrorists as a references. Of course when these same terrorists say that iraq has been a boon to their recruiting efforts you choose to ignore that.. so again do you want to go for tat ? or are you goint to stick your head in the sand and blame everyone else but the people who have f*cked this up from the beginning?
You're rambling.
And you have yet to blame the primary culprits for this mess. I don't blame you because you will have to assign blame to the same folks you are defending.
I'm back. And I am not asking you to believe in what I or
Yoni believe in. I want you to believe in what you think is
correct. You have a brain, God gave it to you to use. And
you being here reading and expressing your opinion is what
you are suppose to do. But also, I would ask you to do
one more thing. Use some common sense. Place yourself
in President Bush position. We just had two of the
largest buildings in New York city destroyed by terrorist
and over 2000 people murdered and what would you do. Go to your intelligence agencies, which he did. The
opposition party had been saying and were continuing to say that one of the people we had "been" at war with for some years had WMD, they were in the same area as the
people who had ramrodded the WTC bombings and had
already given aid and comfort to the terrorist, like
$25,000.00 to families of homicide bombers. And also
were reported to being trying to obtain material for an
Atomic weapon. Now, I am not talking about what is
being said now, lets talk about what was being said then.
Okay. He did what was I consider right.
I will add something. Had things turned out differently,
I mean with the dimm-0-craps supporting our
countries efforts instead of trying to regain political power
we could have been very well at war with Iran and Syria
at this time.
Dead ender. I have no idea what that means. But
supportive of our country. Yes, I stand guilty as
accused. Wrong, well I think I answered that question
also.
I blame the terrorists.
I get the point that it does no good to rehash how this got started. What I find most frustrating is that people like Yoni seem to blame the media and people like me for the mess in iraq. It's very clear at this point that Iraq solution is a political one. I don't see the need to waste anymore blood or treasure for situation that is out of our hands. I am insulted when people on Bush's side who have been wrong about post war iraq since day one and they somehow ignore that..
GGA who do you negotiate with. Who, by that I
mean what political group, will abide by any terms negotiated. You are dealing with thugs and hoodlums.
Don't believe me. Look at Palestine. Two groups of
terrorist and they can't even get along. And how many
times has our government, Egypt and Israel tried to
come to terms with them, politically? Look at
Pakistan and the tribes in the outback of that country.
You are not dealing with normal governments or
people. You are dealing with religious fanatics and
thugs that are in this thing for power and money, like
Arafat.
I also think it helps to move past that.
I am with Yoni on that. The media definitely bends the truth for sensationalism and their political bias.
As for people like you, I'm not sure what to say. Most of us conservatives are so opposite when it comes to some things. I think it goes back to what I see as a primary difference between conservatives and liberals in the sense of responsibility. We are not satisfied with what other people say without verifying things, and that takes some responsibility to check things out. Liberals tend to only do what is fun, expedient, etc. To support liberal propaganda with real facts.... How? I’d really like to see that.
Politics is definitely needed to keep things on the correct course, but how do you negotiate with terrorists? They simply need to be destroyed. We still need the military there, probably for some time still.
So you are a quitter when the going gets rough. Let the actions of those who have stayed in the military and still enlist and reenlist think for themselves. They know the risks and don’t want you to protect them from harm.
Glad you were not involved in the revolutionary war.
Who is 100% correct all the time? Are you right all the time? My God. Blame the man for being human. Can you show intentional deception? No. You can try and repeat propaganda, but there is a clear and valid counter argument, so let’s not go over that again please.
I see very few people who do not acknowledge things are different than planned. I am insulted by the people who use this as an excuse to do more Bush Bashing. Believe me, I really dislike many of this presidents actions, but I still have respect for him. He does what he says he will do. Can you show me any liberal democrat with the same moral character?
There is no one to negotiate with. I will tell you what I would do in regards to iran. I would call mr aghmanidinazda(sp?) to the White House for a friendly chat. I would proceed the following way:
Mr Iranian president we would like to co exist with you in the world today. We can live together and respect eachother's rights, especailly living without worry of being attacked and wiped off the face of the earth. Should you decide that you will continue to try and garner the materials to threaten any peace loving country you will pay the very gravest consequences. Let me explain to you what these consequences are beginning your country being wiped off the face of the earth. make no mistake about it that you and your people will pay for YOUR actions. we will let it be known to the world that you hold the power to allow others to live free. Let me remind you of a very important moment in our nation's history. On december 7, 1941 we were attacked by a foreign foe and the words that our foe muttered, " I am afraid that we have awoken a sleeping giant". You may see our country today as splintered but let me very clear that the one way to gather our nation's attention is to attack us or one of our allies. We know that you are meddling in Iraq today and causing us great harm in the process. We have shown great restraint up until now. Starting today if we find that any of your weapons or fighters spill an ounce of American or Iraqi blood you will begin to lose key parts of your infrastructure. Should that not dissuade you from your continual interference your losses in your homeland will mount to the point of living in darkness and despair. A free and peaceful Iraq is in your best interest as well as for the entire region. Consider today's meeting our last formal request for you to be a responsible and engaing partner in our world today. Should you choose otherwise let me assure you that you will be the first person to pay with their life. It is up to you whether your country will see the next decade.
Wow George. You would kill all the good people of Iran just to destroy its corrupt government? Aren't you one that dislike casualties of war?
If Iran is the primary reason that Iraq is failing then they need to be held accountable. I(have a hard time saying this) can accept casualties in a war that I feel is just and right.
I'm beyond bush bashing.. bush made the mistake starting this without any foresight and he will have to live with all of this death and misery until he dies.
I really think overall, history will treat president Bush very well. At least far better than his opponents will be treated by history!
Only time will tell.
Then why cannot you accept the losses we take for the noble effort of making Iraq safe for her citizens, or would you rather see the days of torture and mass murder return over there?
Because this never should have started to begin with. it is up to them now. We have scarificed enough..
"I also think it helps to move past that."
Of course you would. your team has ed up Iraq. The team that ed Iraq is still running the war, so the past is still present.
"We are not satisfied with what other people say without verifying things"
Like verifying all the Repug "reasons" for the Iraq war?
"Who is 100% correct all the time?"
The Repugs has been wrong or incompetent or dishonest since Jan 2001.
"He does what he says he will do"
Even when it's the wrong thing to,
when it's done incompetently,
when it's done dishonestly.
Last edited by boutons_; 07-19-2007 at 04:26 PM.
But we are there now. Didn't you say "I get the point that it does no good to rehash how this got started." Point is, we are there now, and cannot leave the place in the mess that would occur should we leave.
What is this "WE" stuff? I find very few with your at iude towards the war a member or former member of the military.
Amazing, Ahmahdenijad sounds a lot like Saddam Hussein of 1992-2003.
And what of al Qaeda in Iraq?
"Saddam Hussein of 1992-2003"
... was bluffing, his Army destroyed in the Gulf War, but you got suckered into the lies that Saddam was a threat to the USA, worked with AQ, and was tied to WTC.
Iran is emboldened by dubya's tying down and ing up the US military in Iraq.
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