What's classic is aaronstampler melted down after I said Manu played poor defense in Game 1 of the Nuggets series:All of a sudden, aaronstampler points to Game 1 of the Nuggets series as a time when Manu's defense wasn't good:Classic.
aaronstampler way of arguing looks like manu's defense...
when he's assisting other posters he "sometimes" have quite interesting takes but on one on one against Timvp it's a no fight.
Man just let it go or you'll keep losing credibility (if it's possible after this topic).
Hmm interesting
how I found time to read this first page I do not know ...
But all in all I always consdered Manu the best defender in swing position for spurs (not counting Bowen ofcourse). And it's either team defence in which Manu is great (which comes from being smart and taking chances). Plus Manu is pesky defender and likes to take a chalange. Why Manu was not cvering Carmelo for excample is that he has not the body of LeBron (as an excample).
I do not know where is argue all about. Is it about stampler hating on timvp that he is not giving that much of a credit to Manu or it's stampler hating on timvp that timvp is using 'not acurate' words on manu's defense?
btw. I hate stats when you have to compare two palyers, and more complicated stats won't give you an insight of who is really better. Never!
Senks
If Manu is regarded as "one of the top defenders in the league", why is it he almost never guards any of the top offensive threats on the opposition?
Cause he almost always loosing in a compe ion with Bruce Bowen
The same could be said of Duncan.
Holy you guys get up early to argue. And this is the postseason. Damn.
Probably POP don´t want Manu or TD in Foul Troubles
To LJ...
Despite how he fared in the defensive rankings, Bowen still managed to finish 8th overall at his position, and that's without the huge block/steal numbers you frown on, so the formula couldn't be that bad. I think the lasting image we have of Bruce is him pretty much dominating LeBron in the Finals, but don't forget that in the regular season he had his ups and downs defensively. The usual suspects like T-Mac/Kobe/Wade (and even Adam Morrison) had good nights against him and even in the playoffs Melo had his way with him for a while.
Bruce deserves credit for stepping up his game in the playoffs, but I don't think his regular season ranking is that far off, except obviously I agree with you that he should get bonus points for always guarding the top guy.
As for Horry, if you look back you'll see most of my criticism of him has to do with his shot. Basically, outside of Vaughn, I'd rather see any of our other 8 rotation players shoot the ball before Horry. But defensively, on most nights he's still pretty good. Not the best rebounder, but he has enough veteran savvy to handle his own end most nights. His +/- numbers reflect that Horry, despite my protests, was still an asset to the Spurs last season. But I've pretty much lost confidence in him as a scorer.
The Manu/Tony argument, I'll just put it to you this way... if they were cornerbacks on the Philadelphia Eagles, Tony would be Sheldon Brown. Solid, reliable. He'll give you the occasional 12 yard completion on the sidelines, but he won't get beat deep and he's a solid tackler. Manu is more in the Lito Shepphard mold. He'll gamble more and give up the occasional bomb, but he'll also wind up with way more picks and take a couple back to the house. Also, he plays his best in 4th quarters.
You might prefer a Brown type corner. I'm more of a Lito guy.
As for your statement that you don't go out of your way to pick on Manu, I'll refer you to this from the Buck Harvey thread...
Nice breakdown by Buck. I've rewatched the game and the ironic thing is that Donaghy was the best official on the floor. He had that one blown call on the Manu foul ... but then again, how many times has Manu begged his way into a call? It happens almost every game.
I'm telling you, you take potshots when there is no need. That's the only thing that pisses me off. Do I in my heart of hearts think Manu is the best defensive shooting guard? No. But he's probably in the top three or four, so the formula isn't that crazy.
And I find really annoying your assertion that I think Manu is like some basketball god. I've never said he's the best NBA player or the best Spur or the best shooting guard or anything crazy like that, and you repeatedly accuse me of this. I can't win with you on this board. When I defend Tim Duncan, you say I'm just bashing Tony. When I defend Manu, it's because I'm a Manu lover. I'm basically waiting for you to ever point out or acknowledge that I state on the record, all the time, that Duncan is the best player in the league and should have been both regular season and Finals MVP.
Also, I post plenty about things outside of Manu/Tony, and you ignore all those too. You just read what you want to read and your arrogance is off the charts because of all the brown-nosers your have on this board.
You've brainwashed the people into going along with you that Finley is a good defender. Good lord. Brent is better than him.
Whatever. If people on here aren't smart or rational enough to figure out you're wrong about things as much as everyone else on here, I don't know what to tell them. I'm waiting with bated breath for the Marcus Williams Era.
1) Manu is a good bordering on great team defender.
2) Manu is a good one-on-one defender... BUT Finley/Barry/Tony are not a very good team defenders.
IMHO
You can't see the difference between Duncan's role on defense and Manu's?
bull ... Manu's defense is the third best in the Spurs... that's why he played ALL fourth quarters on the playoffs and FInals in his rookie season...
If Manu is regarded as "one of the top defenders in the league", why is it he almost never guards any of the top offensive threats on the opposition?Sure, it could be said of Manu or Duncan. But let's face it - guarding a top offensive threat means that there will be more opportunities to commit fouls. I'd rather sacrifice a little bit of defense to keep Tim and Manu on the floor longer. Let Tim guard some scrub for a while to keep out of foul trouble.The same could be said of Duncan.
Are you kidding!!
Manu defend Barbosa (both are six-man), and Marion in ceveral times.
Manu go with lebron and Carmelo, in bowen rest.
And Parker with Deron (he kill us)
The defense of Parker it's bad, manu it's over average, but the spurs are team defense they help with the best man of the other team, and rotate to help the helper. And manu, tony, fabricio, tim, bruce, are excelent in this.
the spurs play team defense focus in the stars of the agaist, because of this the role player's score more that as usual, and this is the reason of dallas make us really dificult, they have role player that score!
Sorry for my english
cheers
Carlos
Because Manu can help Finley.
Finley can't help.
Team defense.
Manu takes care of Bruce's Man when he is on the bench.. that means.. he is the second best perimeter defender in the Spurs...
But this is True!! I personally thought it was a compliment not a "potshot", Manu has the ability to draw fouls when fouls don't exist. You seem to take anything Timvp says about Manu rather personally. if you can't admit that Manu is a great flopper then the Homer goggles are on to tight.
Do you know why it is that he's even that high? I've because he was first overall in the league in Def. +/-. In that steals, blocks and foul category, he was way down the list. In that "Defensive Ratings" category, he was last on the team.
For the third time, what part of my analysis of the formula did you disagree with?
Are you complaining just to complain or do you have an actual beef with my breakdown of the equation?
This is gold. You think Bowen's rating isn't that far off while you also are defending Ginobili's rating. So not only do you think Ginobili is a better defender than Manu, you obviously think Bowen is a highly overrated defender. At least the truth is starting to come out.
And yes, some scorers had good games against Bowen. When you have the job of stopping the other team's best scorer 82 games a year, you are going to have some slip ups. He didn't have anymore slip ups this year than any other year. And if you look at his Def. +/-, you can argue he's coming off the best regular season of his career.
On top of that, a couple games he gets blamed for were actually *gasp* Manu's fault defensively. When TMac went crazy against the Spurs, he got rolling against Manu. Another time the same thing happened when Pop put Manu on Kobe.
But yeah, at least you are starting to reveal some of your own opinions. Bowen is overrated and Manu is a top five defender in the league. Anything else?
So all your whining about Horry was wrong? Okay, got it.
First of all, this isn't even a "Manu/Tony" argument. Second of all, that little comparison doesn't work because it doesn't account for Bowen.
If you want to go with a football comparison, Bowen is the shutdown cornerback, Parker is a smallish shutdown cornerback who can't cover the big wide receivers or come up to help stop the run, while Manu is the free safety who you don't want matched up one-on-one with a star wide receiver but is capable of making big plays all over the field.
Uh, that's called a compliment. Manu is a great flopper and great at baiting refs into calling fouls in his favor. How the could that be a Manu "bash"? I wish all the Spurs were as good at getting calls to go their way as Manu is. Manu is probably a top three player in the league at that.
And do you even know the play I'm talking about? If that's not begging for a call, I don't know what is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvkKdXLwt0U -- 1:25 mark
What potshots? So far you have this thread where if I was taking a potshot at anyone, it'd be Tim Duncan for debunking the formula that ranked him first in the league. And you have a post where I was giving Manu props for the ability to bait refs.
And I don't see how you can put Manu as a top three or four overall defender at shooting guard when he rarely guards anyone of consequence. Top three or four at his position as far as a team defender? Sure, I can buy that. Top three or four at his position overall or just as a one-on-one defender? No way. Even if in some fairy land he was the shutdown defender that you claim him to be, he rarely guards anyone that good so you can't rank him that high for guarding the Linas Kleizas of the world.
After Bowen retires maybe then you won't see Bowen as some overrated scrub and Manu as the real defensive ace of the team.
Is this the same Tim Duncan who you said shouldn't have gotten the 2005 Finals MVP because *gasp* Manu Ginobili should have gotten it? Is this the same Tim Duncan who you said wasn't even as good as Robert Horry in the 2005 Finals?
And yes when you post in a thread, it's usually: 1) to run to Manu's defense 2) to run in to bash Parker, Horry or Bowen 3) to run in and bash anyone who might pose a threat to Manu
Point me to some of your posts that prove me wrong. I'd love to read some of the posts of this well-rounded aaronstampler you talk about.
Where are the supposed "brown-nosers" in this thread? Call them out.
The only arrogance I have is because I know I'm right and I know you're mostly wrong in your takes in this thread.
Link to where I said he was a good defender? For the 20,001 time, I said that Finley is a better one-on-one defender. If you have an issue with that, take it up with Pop because he obviously agrees with me. Overall, Manu is the better defender ... but not in one-on-one situations.
Link to where I'm wrong?
You just get in your little hissy fits when someone points out a potential flaw in Manu's game. And what's funny is I readily admit that Manu is a good overall defender. But you get all cry baby when I point out that he's not good in one-on-one situations. And he's not.
But yeah, keep your Supermanu cape handy because I'm sure you'll be rushing to his defense before long.
Oh and if you followed anything outside of Manu, you'd know that I've been Marcus Williams' biggest critic since summer league began. And I was never that excited with the pick to begin with. You just saw me say something about Williams when you came to the defense of Manu in yet another thread and didn't even understand what I saying.
Manu rarely guarded Barbosa, Marion or Carmelo. And when he did, the result was rarely positive.
Parker rarely guarded Deron Williams. Bowen guarded him almost the whole series. When Parker did have the chance to guard him, he usually defended him pretty well.
Sometimes true, but usually not.
Against Denver, Manu wasn't the backup defender for Carmelo or AI. Against Phoenix, Manu wasn't the backup defender against Nash. Against Utah, Manu wasn't the backup defender against DWilliams. He did spend some time on LeBron, which is why I gave him props then and give him props now for stepping up his defense in the Finals.
Very good thread. Some of these posts make me question my own opinions. I have always considered Manu a better defender than parker, but timvp make some good points. Ginobili does make big defensive plays at crucial moments. (and mistakes) Overall, I thought the ratings were better than other statistical attempts to rated defense. But the only way to really judge defense is to watch the games.
Another aspect of Parker's "defense" is that whoever is guarding Parker expends a lot of energy running up and down the court with him. This has a "defensive" value of a kind. In the Finals Lebron had to chase him around the court, and I think it took it's toll. Being the fastest player on the court has advantages.
Ginobili's great defense cost you guys 2 championships.........See .4 shot against Derrick Fisher in 2004 and his "defensive block" which led to an And 1 and win on Dirk in 2006.Great defender he is.
1. For the third time, if a formula comes up with Duncan, Horry, Bruce, Manu, and Tony ranked as high defensively for their positions as this one did, then it stands to reason that it's not that bad of a formula. Either invent a better one where Tony and Bruce finish 1st each at SF and PG and Manu 20th at SG, or shut the up about it already. It's just like your criticisms of +/-. You say it doesn't mean a whole lot, but look who finished 1st, 2nd, and 3rd: Duncan, Dirk, and Nash, only the three MVP candidates in the league.Do you know why it is that he's even that high? I've because he was first overall in the league in Def. +/-. In that steals, blocks and foul category, he was way down the list. In that "Defensive Ratings" category, he was last on the team.
For the third time, what part of my analysis of the formula did you disagree with?
Are you complaining just to complain or do you have an actual beef with my breakdown of the equation?
This is gold. You think Bowen's rating isn't that far off while you also are defending Ginobili's rating. So not only do you think Ginobili is a better defender than Manu, you obviously think Bowen is a highly overrated defender. At least the truth is starting to come out.
And yes, some scorers had good games against Bowen. When you have the job of stopping the other team's best scorer 82 games a year, you are going to have some slip ups. He didn't have anymore slip ups this year than any other year. And if you look at his Def. +/-, you can argue he's coming off the best regular season of his career.
On top of that, a couple games he gets blamed for were actually *gasp* Manu's fault defensively. When TMac went crazy against the Spurs, he got rolling against Manu. Another time the same thing happened when Pop put Manu on Kobe.
But yeah, at least you are starting to reveal some of your own opinions. Bowen is overrated and Manu is a top five defender in the league. Anything else?
So all your whining about Horry was wrong? Okay, got it.
First of all, this isn't even a "Manu/Tony" argument. Second of all, that little comparison doesn't work because it doesn't account for Bowen.
If you want to go with a football comparison, Bowen is the shutdown cornerback, Parker is a smallish shutdown cornerback who can't cover the big wide receivers or come up to help stop the run, while Manu is the free safety who you don't want matched up one-on-one with a star wide receiver but is capable of making big plays all over the field.
Uh, that's called a compliment. Manu is a great flopper and great at baiting refs into calling fouls in his favor. How the could that be a Manu "bash"? I wish all the Spurs were as good at getting calls to go their way as Manu is. Manu is probably a top three player in the league at that.
And do you even know the play I'm talking about? If that's not begging for a call, I don't know what is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvkKdXLwt0U -- 1:25 mark
What potshots? So far you have this thread where if I was taking a potshot at anyone, it'd be Tim Duncan for debunking the formula that ranked him first in the league. And you have a post where I was giving Manu props for the ability to bait refs.
And I don't see how you can put Manu as a top three or four overall defender at shooting guard when he rarely guards anyone of consequence. Top three or four at his position as far as a team defender? Sure, I can buy that. Top three or four at his position overall or just as a one-on-one defender? No way. Even if in some fairy land he was the shutdown defender that you claim him to be, he rarely guards anyone that good so you can't rank him that high for guarding the Linas Kleizas of the world.
After Bowen retires maybe then you won't see Bowen as some overrated scrub and Manu as the real defensive ace of the team.
Is this the same Tim Duncan who you said shouldn't have gotten the 2005 Finals MVP because *gasp* Manu Ginobili should have gotten it? Is this the same Tim Duncan who you said wasn't even as good as Robert Horry in the 2005 Finals?
And yes when you post in a thread, it's usually: 1) to run to Manu's defense 2) to run in to bash Parker, Horry or Bowen 3) to run in and bash anyone who might pose a threat to Manu
Point me to some of your posts that prove me wrong. I'd love to read some of the posts of this well-rounded aaronstampler you talk about.
Where are the supposed "brown-nosers" in this thread? Call them out.
The only arrogance I have is because I know I'm right and I know you're mostly wrong in your takes in this thread.
Link to where I said he was a good defender? For the 20,001 time, I said that Finley is a better one-on-one defender. If you have an issue with that, take it up with Pop because he obviously agrees with me. Overall, Manu is the better defender ... but not in one-on-one situations.
Link to where I'm wrong?
You just get in your little hissy fits when someone points out a potential flaw in Manu's game. And what's funny is I readily admit that Manu is a good overall defender. But you get all cry baby when I point out that he's not good in one-on-one situations. And he's not.
But yeah, keep your Supermanu cape handy because I'm sure you'll be rushing to his defense before long.
Oh and if you followed anything outside of Manu, you'd know that I've been Marcus Williams' biggest critic since summer league began. And I was never that excited with the pick to begin with. You just saw me say something about Williams when you came to the defense of Manu in yet another thread and didn't even understand what I saying.
2. Oh my god. When have I ever said that I think Manu is a better defender than Bruce? You keep putting words in my mouth. I'm aware that Bruce's contributions to the team are much higher than his stats would suggest. All I said was that he had his small defensive slumps in the regular season so I can see where the 8th place ranking was coming from. I'd still rather have him guarding a guy if my life depended on it than anyone else in the league.
I think where you are confused is that you think I agree with all the rankings in the formula. I don't. Bruce is too low and Manu is too high. I've already said this. I'm just saying I don't disagree with them as much as you do, primarily, because as I've written before, as a whole they're pretty much in the ballpark and I appreciate that at least someone is trying. That's the difference between you and me. I appreciate the effort of this and you just slag it.
3. It's getting annoying, having to repeatedly read your argument that Manu isn't a good one-on-one defender because Bruce takes the top guy. Bruce takes the top guy because he is the best defender in the league. Even if Manu was the second best defender in the NBA, (which he isn't) nothing would change because Bruce would still take the top guy. I mean, this logic is so twisted it's insane. It's like saying that if Kevin Garnett were on the team he'd only be the 2nd best power forward on the Spurs. While technically the statement is true, it has no context at all. Manu would be the best perimeter defender on most of the teams in the NBA. Just not the one he plays on. Also, as numerous posters have pointed out to you, his work on the other end is pretty damn valuable, so Pop and co. in the suits probably don't want to tire or foul him out on defense. For the same reason, Tim rarely guards the opponents best big man. Bruce doesn't need much energy to stand in the corners every offensive possession.
4. Wait, the best scorer in the NBA got hot on Manu? Holy , Manu must suck then. Once again, no context. I guess you forget that the only reason we even beat the Lakers once the whole season is because Manu blocked Kobe's jumper at the end of regulation in Los Angeles. Show me another Spur who can make that play.
5. Btw, your repeated insistence on splitting up one-on-one defense and team defense is getting tiresome. One-on-one defense doesn't mean anything. If you think in an empty gym that Tony can ever stop Nash or Bruce can stop Carmelo, you're crazy. David Robinson is the authority on this, and he said in an interview in SI long ago that for a good player, it's not really hard to score one-on-one against anybody. If you're a top 30, top 40 player, you have too many moves, too many weapons, the advantage of knowing what you're gonna do where the defender can only guess or react. To go back to the football analogy, even the best NFL shutdown corner is only expected to stay with his guy for 3 or 4 seconds. After that, anybody, even Champ Bailey, will get beat. So really, it doesn't matter if you're talking about Bruce or Tony or Manu or whoever. They all have the same job on defense, force their guy to take contested jumpers, funnel them toward their weak hand, help out a beat en teammate, and communicate with Tim (who makes the whole thing work).
6. I'm not wrong about Horry. I don't want him to shoot the ball, ever. And I'm not too thrilled about having a guy on the team who clearly doesn't want to be on the court for most of the regular season games. He's like the posterchild for regular season apathy. His comment that he'd rather be a superstar who had Barkley's career rather than the role player with all the rings left me very cold. If that's what he really wanted for himself, than perhaps he should have stuck his nose in there and tried to score and rebound like a 6'11 guy instead of spending his whole career camped behind the three point line like a big wuss.
7. A great flopper who begs for calls and a poor one-on-one defender. Yup, you're clearly a charter member of the Manu Ginobili fan club. As the saying goes, "With friends like you..." Maybe it'd be better if you didn't ever write about him.
8. Saying Tim Duncan is the best player in the league but that he didn't deserve the 2005 Finals MVP are not contradictory statements. He was playing with two bad ankles that year so he clearly wasn't at his best. If you couldn't tell the difference between '05 postseason Duncan and '07 postseason Duncan, I don't know what to tell you. It boggles my mind that he won the award vs the Pistons but not Cleveland when he was clearly better in this series than that one. He got the MVP in '05 because he had some decent scoring games in blowout losses (with awful - for him - shooting percentages though) and because Manu wasn't engaged to some ABC star.
Tim is one of the top ten players to ever play, but to suggest, rationally, that he played better in the '05 Finals than Ginobili is absurd. Manu was the best player on the floor in 3 of the 4 wins, and Horry was in the other. To me, if you want to give Duncan the award in '05, fine, you give it to him because of defense/rebounding/leadership/team's best player. Well how did any of those things change in '07? Either Manu should have won it in '05 or Tim should have in '07. You even agree with me on the latter part of that, so I don't understand why we're arguing. All I'm asking for is some consistency from the voters.
9. I'm perfectly aware you jumped off the Marcus Williams bandwagon very quickly. But I'm also aware that you were the one who started the Marcus Williams bandwagon. Great athlete, good scorer, yadda, yadda, yadda. We should have drafted a backup point guard, but this FO clearly is not interested in playing anyone under 30 except for Tony.
10. I'm done with this thread. You're an arrogant bas and everyone knows it. Furthermore, you're a phony. You can fool everyone on here, with your insults and macho posturing, but I remember our IM chat, very, very clearly. And no matter how much you insult me or patronize me on here, we both know who kissed who's ass that day.
I don't have time to respond to the rest of your post right now. But don't worry, I will later.
As far as the IM chat, who backed down like a ho after I called them out? That'd be you. I confronted you about something you wrote that was way out of line. You ended up deleting it. And I kissed your ass?
If you really want to go there, let's go there. People can see what kind of low life coward you really are.
The best post I've read in while in this site.
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