You don't think Sean Insannity would have flown in Tillman in for one of his freedom concerts? Tillman's thoughts on this war are well do ented in his own writing and from first-hand sources - his mom....and they don't fall on the side of the chicken-hawks....
You know, I hadn't really read any of this thread and I think that what happened to Tillman was a tragedy, and the lies in the aftermath didn't help anyone.
However, Tillman was a hero. He had it all, and choose to serve this nation for a dramatic pay cut.
That is a hero!
May he rest in peace.
You know, since other threads were slow, I started reading this one. I cannot believe the allegations being thrown in the air. The examiner says it appears the shots were close range, but I see no mention of powder burns.
What position was he in? If he had his back against a wall, or sitting in a vehicle, he could have been shot three times without the three round burst. Even if he was standing, or in some other position, if the shot doesn't hit specific nerve clusters, a person may stay in the same position for a few seconds. I'd be able to make such a shot succession at 250 to 300 yards, in probably a second, in semi-automatic mode. I was a fixed station technician. Those combat troops I'm sure shoot better than I do.
Now I never used an A2 version, so I don't know how tight the three round burst pattern is. My understanding is it is very tight!
Again, the Bush haters are taking the flimsiest of evidence and making accusations.
ing evil assholes.
I want some real evidence.
"close range, but I see no mention of powder burns."
RIF, even with your bias. The distance mentioned was 10 yards.
This has nothing to with dubya. Except that the ing bas sent the Army into the wrong ing country.
The real evidence is from the person who pulled the trigger, and/or any people who were right there. We haven't heard from them, yet. I suspect the Army will continue to make damn sure we don't.
Actually, the guy that was standing next to him when he died has spoken out. I'll see if I can find the reference.
He disputes the murder conspiracy.
What, boutons misquotes the examiner... No surprise, no wonder he is still on IGNORE.
Silly idiot. The examiner made a statement to the effect that it looked like 10 yards. No certainty, and was an assumption. The 223 round the M16A2 uses (5.56 mm) maintains a very fast trajectory for some distance. The only way to claim a short distance of 10 yards vs. say 100 yards would be powder burn patterns. At 10 yards, you would have some, at 100 yards you would have none. It’s muzzle velocity is so fast at 3050 feet per second, the round disintegrates if you fire it into water. It has a maximum effective range of 600 yards.
I misquoted nobody, the examiner mentioned 10 yards.
powder travels 30+ feet and arrives in exactly the same place at a perhaps fallen/displaced target? GMAFB.
I think the only way to resolve it is to hear from the shooter, who appears to be the only one shooting since no other evidence of shooting damage was found.
Last edited by boutons_; 07-29-2007 at 12:42 PM.
If Tillman were still alive, can you imagine what he'd say to the forum conservatives?
That would be a show worth watching.
so what you are saying is, you know EXACTLY what happened based on your experience but where not at this scene as opposed to a trained medical examiner whose job is to find the exact cause of death?
GI disputes report on Tillman
Says Tillman didn't snap at him, shooters were a ways off
Martha Mendoza
Associated Press
Jul. 29, 2007 12:00 AM
SAN FRANCISCO - As bullets flew above their heads, the young soldier at Pat Tillman's side started praying.
"I thought I was praying to myself, but I guess he heard me," Sgt. Bryan O'Neal recalled in an interview Saturday with the Associated Press. "He said something like, 'Hey, O'Neal, why are you praying? God can't help us now.' "
Tillman's intent, O'Neal said, was to "more or less put my mind straight about what was going on at the moment."
"He said, 'I've got an idea to help get us out of this,' " said O'Neal, who was an 18-year-old Army Ranger in Tillman's unit when the former NFL player was killed by friendly fire in April 2004 in Afghanistan.
O'Neal said Tillman threw a smoke grenade to identify themselves to fellow soldiers who were firing at them.
Tillman was waving his arms shouting "Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" again and again when he was killed, O'Neal said.
A chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman's death later described this exchange to investigators conducting a criminal probe of the incident.
But O'Neal strongly disputes portions of the chaplain's testimony, outlined in some 2,300 pages of transcripts released to the AP last week by the Defense Department in response to a Freedom of Information Act request.
The chaplain told investigators O'Neal said Tillman was harsh in his last moments, snapping, "Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling...."
"He never would have called me 'sniveling,' " O'Neal said. "I don't remember ever speaking to this chaplain, and I find this characterization of Pat really upsetting. He never once degraded me. He's the only person I ever worked for who didn't degrade anyone. He wasn't that sort of person."
The chaplain's name is blacked out in the do ents.
Tillman gave up a multimillion-dollar football contract with the Arizona Cardinals to enlist with his brother in the Army after the 2001 terrorist attacks.
The military initially told the public and the Tillman family that he had been killed by enemy fire.
Only weeks later, when the truth was about to be published, did the Pentagon acknowledge that he was gunned down by fellow Rangers.
The Pentagon conducted a criminal investigation and ruled that Tillman's death was a friendly-fire accident.
More questions, hearings
Congress is preparing for another hearing this week, while the Pentagon is separately preparing a new round of punishments.
Soldiers and commanders who worked with Tillman have repeatedly testified that he was respected, admired and well-liked.
In the same testimony, medical examiners said the bullet holes in Tillman's head were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired a mere 10 yards or so away.
O'Neal said the shooters were "close, close enough for me to recognize them, but they sure weren't 10 yards away. They were further than that. I've thought about this plenty of times. They wouldn't have been more than 50 yards away."
Another key issue raised in the transcripts involved never-before-mentioned snipers who were apparently there when the firing broke out, got out of their vehicle and walked alongside the convoy, cutting up the canyon firing.
O'Neal said Saturday that he knew there were snipers in the convoy that fired at them but that he can't remember their names.
Were they fired at by the snipers? "Not that I know of," O'Neal told the AP.
His recollections of the snipers reflected other testimony in the transcripts, including answers given by Capt. Richard Scott, who conducted the first, immediate investigation:
Question: Are you aware whether or not any U.S. forces snipers were at the scene?
Answer: Scott: They were in serial two.
Q: And, and do you know whose GMV (ground mobility vehicle) they were traveling in?
A: Scott: I don't think they were in a GMV. I think they were in a cargo Humvee.
Q: OK. Do you know if the snipers fired any rounds during this incident involving CPL Tillman?
A: Scott: I do not, no.
Who gives a about powder. If you'll attempt to recall (as difficult as that will be) they burned all his before any real investigation. It's not a big deal. They've screwed the pooch on everything else.
How in the do you derive that? You are misinterpreting what is said, just like people are misinterpreting what the examiner said.
Anyone on this forum pass basic English?
The only allegations I see being thrown around are allegations of an even bigger cover-up than the original cover-up....but continue painting everyone in as broad strokes as possible....
The entire problem arose, and persists, because THE ARMY LIED about Tilman and Lynch.
Once your lies violate peoples' trust, Humpty Dumpty is broken.
We saw the Army lie and misrepresent repeatedly during the VN war.
"The First Casualty of War is The Truth"
Last edited by boutons_; 07-29-2007 at 08:34 PM.
Wait a minute, a chaplain debriefed the unit?
Counseled the unit after the incident, maybe. And if he counseled them, why is he talking about a confidential discussion?
Debriefed the unit? I don't see that happening. What would a chaplain have to do with operations?
ESPNThe Army Ranger who was alongside Pat Tillman when he was shot in Afghanistan told ESPN.com Friday that he remains convinced that the former NFL player was accidentally killed by friendly fire, rather than a target of a malicious act.
Sgt. Bryan O'Neal disputed Army doctors who, according to do ents obtained by The Associated Press, voiced su ions shortly after the 2004 incident about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Tillman's forehead and tried, initially without success, to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player's death amounted to a crime.
--snip--
"No, there is no way the guy was 10 yards away. That is just completely unlikely," O'Neal told ESPN.com. "If he was there initially, like the way the conspiracy theorists work that he was there to kill Pat, why wouldn't he have killed me? That doesn't work so well. "
"There is no way that was the case ," O'Neal said. "You'd be able to make out their face. You'd know exactly who was shooting. Yeah, there is no possible way they were just 10 yards away."
Specialist Bryan O'Neal on Pat Tillman's death
3 rounds in less than 6 inches at 30+meters is damn excellent shooting, near superhuman.
What? At 30 meters, they can be placed within a dime if your good!
Where do you get your bull information from? Do you make it up as you go?
^3 single shot rounds, or a 3 round burst? (I'm not trying to be a here, I'm asking you because you've actually shot an M4 before)
I don't think anyone knows. As a soldier, I was trained to use semi-automatic mode unless you are against a large group of soldiers. My guess is they were operating thn semi-automatic rather than burst. I never heard anyone there say one way or another. A good shooter can shoot three shots rather rapidly. Squeeze, adjust aim, squeeze, adjust aim, squeeze... in one breath, in about the span of a second.
I never did target practice in auto mode. I would assume that a three round burst pattern is within six inches at up to 100 yards if you know you to hold it right while the rifle kicks. However, that is just an assumption.
That's been long suspected.
We're not talking about a set target here, a head-wound from that distance, with that caliber, would recoil the head...
Reconcile?
I meant recoil...
That would depend on whether or not the head had a place to go. If, for instance, Tillman was taking cover and had his head against an object, (for instance, bracing himself against a rock or vehicle or something) a three shot burst, from a steady gun, could conceivably strike him before his head slumped.
I think we need more facts.
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