Why We Need a Draft: A Marine’s Lament

[Jamtas#2]

I don't understand this obsession saying that if you support the war you must be willing to enlist. Are those who are opposed to the war required to engage in anti-war rallies and demonstrations?
Seems like a double standard to me. Everyone should be free to voice their opinions no matter what side they take on this. I don't think one side should have requirements be made of them before their opinion can be accepted.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Rather have someone else do the heavy lifting then?

I do find it a shame that more people don't feel it necessary to give back to the country that has provided them so much.

I wouldn't have given back much had I joined when I was the right age because nothing was happening that required as many troops as we need now. Now that I am nearing the age where I'd be too old to enlist I still wouldn't join (even if I so desired) because I have a family and a career.

EDIT: And I having been giving back by being a hard-working, tax-paying, law-abiding citizen for my entire adult life.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't understand this obsession saying that if you support the war you must be willing to enlist. Are those who are opposed to the war required to engage in anti-war rallies and demonstrations?
Seems like a double standard to me. Everyone should be free to voice their opinions no matter what side they take on this. I don't think one side should have requirements be made of them before their opinion can be accepted.

Why not? Aren't we at total war for our nation's very survival? That's what I've been told by supporters of the war.

I would serve this country if called to, but I don't trust the current government to use the military properly.

[Jamtas#2]

Why not? Aren't we at total war for our nation's very survival? That's what I've been told by supporters of the war.

I would serve this country if called to, but I don't trust the current government to use the military properly.

So those who oppose this war can rant and rave all they want and not have to show how much they oppose it by physically participating in their beliefs, but those who support the war must be active military and physically show their support or their opinions don't count?

[Oh, Gee!!]

So those who oppose this war can rant and rave all they want and not have to show how much they oppose it by physically participating in their beliefs, but those who support the war must be active military and physically show their support or their opinions don't count?

those who are opposed do not expect others to sacrifice their own lives for their cause. you really can't compare holding a sign with holding a rifle.

[Jamtas#2]

I wouldn't have given back much had I joined when I was the right age because nothing was happening that required as many troops as we need now. Now that I am nearing the age where I'd be too old to enlist I still wouldn't join (even if I so desired) because I have a family and a career.

EDIT: And I having been giving back by being a hard-working, tax-paying, law-abiding citizen for my entire adult life.

Not to say you haven't done anything to give back to your country, but that is a poor example. That's like saying I support the troops because i put a bumper sticker on my car.
Does paying your required property taxes mean you give back to your community? Or does that require extra effort and doing something that isn't required of you?

[Jamtas#2]

those who are opposed do not expect others to sacrifice their own lives for their cause. you really can't compare holding a sign with holding a rifle.

Actually, you can. They are both making an effort to support their cause.
Its very easy to support or oppose something without having to make much of an effort. If you are going to hold up one side of the arguement to a higher standard, you must hold yourself to that same standard.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Not to say you haven't done anything to give back to your country, but that is a poor example. That's like saying I support the troops because i put a bumper sticker on my car.
Does paying your required property taxes mean you give back to your community? Or does that require extra effort and doing something that isn't required of you?

Working hard is not giving back? Being a good citizen is not giving back? Putting my hard earned money back into the stream of commerce is not giving back?

[Oh, Gee!!]

Actually, you can. They are both making an effort to support their cause.
Its very easy to support or oppose something without having to make much of an effort. If you are going to hold up one side of the arguement to a higher standard, you must hold yourself to that same standard.

Effort you ask of soldiers (but not yourself btw)=death, grave injury, psychological trauma

Effort you ask of protesters=make signs, march around, maybe get pepper-sprayed or arrested for a Class C misdememanor.

Yeah, those are quite similar.

[Jamtas#2]

Working hard is not giving back? Being a good citizen is not giving back? Putting my hard earned money back into the stream of commerce is not giving back?

Is there no consequence to not paying them? Is there not a consequence to breaking the law?
Now if you are donating extra money that you don't have, then yes that is giving back. If you are helping out in your community or volunteering your time to improve the lives of other, yes that is giving back.

[Jamtas#2]

Effort you ask of soldiers (but not yourself btw)=death, grave injury, psychological trauma

Effort you ask of protesters=make signs, march around, maybe get pepper-sprayed or arrested for a Class C misdememanor.

Yeah, those are quite similar.

Real quick here Oh, Gee. When have I said that I ask anything of our soldiers that I'm not willing to do? I haven't even given you my stance on the war, you are just assuming what my position is. I only stated that it is wrong to tell the po-war folk that they must enlist or their opinions don't count, while the anti-war people don't have to make any effort to support their position.

[ChumpDumper]

So those who oppose this war can rant and rave all they want and not have to show how much they oppose it by physically participating in their beliefs, but those who support the war must be active military and physically show their support or their opinions don't count?

Protesting IS ranting and raving, so I don't see the issue there. My time to protest the war is well past, since I knew once we were there we would be stuck. If you know of any "Par ion Iraq" demonstrations, let me in on it.

OTOH, the hyperbole used by war supporters about jihads total war and the survival of this country is not matched by their actions. If you truly believe this war is worth the ultimate sacrifice for the men and women of the armed forces, then what will be your personal sacrifice? What are you willing to to give right now?

[Oh, Gee!!]

Real quick here Oh, Gee. When have I said that I ask anything of our soldiers that I'm not willing to do? I haven't even given you my stance on the war, you are just assuming what my position is. I only stated that it is wrong to tell the po-war folk that they must enlist or their opinions don't count, while the anti-war people don't have to make any effort to support their position.

The efforts required are inherently different, so your analogy doesn't make sense.

[Jamtas#2]

The efforts required are inherently different, so your analogy doesn't make sense.

I agree that pretty much anything doesn't compare to risking death and wielding a gun. However, it is a question of talking the talk and walking the walk. If you tell pro-war people they must "walk the walk" then you must be prepared to "walk the walk" on your stance. It is very hypocritcal in my opinion to do otherwise.

[Jamtas#2]

Protesting IS ranting and raving, so I don't see the issue there. My time to protest the war is well past, since I knew once we were there we would be stuck. If you know of any "Par ion Iraq" demonstrations, let me in on it.

OTOH, the hyperbole used by war supporters about jihads total war and the survival of this country is not matched by their actions. If you truly believe this war is worth the ultimate sacrifice for the men and women of the armed forces, then what will be your personal sacrifice? What are you willing to to give right now?

Protesting can be ranting and raving, you are correct. But if you are going to tell people that posting their support of the war on a message board isn't really supporting the war, than protesting it here isn't really protesting it either. Keep the same standard for both sides.
If you truly believe that this war is wrong, what will your sacrifice be to make sure it is ended? Are you willing to give to the movement to end the war?

[ChumpDumper]

I am pretty sure that most war protesters are perfectly willing to not go to war to substantiate their beliefs.

And as I said, I am perfectly willing to join a Par ion Iraq rally. Do you know of any happening this weekend??

[Jamtas#2]

I am pretty sure that most war protesters are perfectly willing to not go to war to substantiate their beliefs.

So they are willing to do nothing. How much effort that must take to substantiate their beliefs.

[ChumpDumper]

So they are willing to do nothing. How much effort that must take to substantiate their beliefs.

Not much, but they don't have to do much. They didn't want to go to war in the first place. The burden is squarely on those who want to send young men and women off to die.

As for me, I said, I am perfectly willing to join a Par ion Iraq rally. Do you know of any happening this weekend??

[Jamtas#2]

Not much, but they don't have to do much. They didn't want to go to war in the first place.

As for me, I said, I am perfectly willing to join a Par ion Iraq rally. Do you know of any happening this weekend??

No, but if you are willing to show your beliefs, you are more than welcome to arrange one.

I'm not saying that you have to be active to oppose/support the war. I'm only saying that if you are going to impose that standard on the opposing side, then apply it to yourself.

[Oh, Gee!!]

I agree that pretty much anything doesn't compare to risking death and wielding a gun. However, it is a question of talking the talk and walking the walk. If you tell pro-war people they must "walk the walk" then you must be prepared to "walk the walk" on your stance. It is very hypocritcal in my opinion to do otherwise.

"Walking the walk" on the anti-war side would require someone to attend a protest or rally here-and-there, vote, make some calls, volunteer their time. But at the end of the day you get to go home and spend time with loved ones.

"Walking the walk" from a soldier's perspective is a lot different. The soldiers are in danger 24 hours a day and may never get to go home and spend time with loved ones.

Again, your analogy just doesn't work.

[xrayzebra]

Holy smokes. The twilight zone.

[Jamtas#2]

"Walking the walk" on the anti-war side would require someone to attend a protest or rally here-and-there, vote, make some calls, volunteer their time. But at the end of the day you get to go home and spend time with loved ones.

"Walking the walk" from a soldier's perspective is a lot different. The soldiers are in danger 24 hours a day and may never get to go home and spend time with loved ones.

Again, your analogy just doesn't work.

Again, the situations are very different. But the fact that you are making an effort is the point. If you are going to require one side to make an effort to support their beliefs, then you need to make an effort on your side as well. (Before you post it again, I know it won't be the same level of effort as risking your life.)

[ChumpDumper]

No, but if you are willing to show your beliefs, you are more than welcome to arrange one.

I'm not saying that you have to be active to oppose/support the war. I'm only saying that if you are going to impose that standard on the opposing side, then apply it to yourself.

I think when one side paints the war in terms of the survival of western civilization, that side needs to prove it is really that serious to them in all aspects of their lives.

[Oh, Gee!!]

I think when one side paints the war in terms of the survival of western civilization, that side needs to prove it is really that serious to them in all aspects of their lives.

and when one side wants to continue sinking more money and bodies......well, you know the rest.

[Jamtas#2]

I think when one side paints the war in terms of the survival of western civilization, that side needs to prove it is really that serious to them in all aspects of their lives.

Well, then I guess if the other side is going to paint it as another Vietnam and is effectively ruining our country and how important it is for us to leave Iraq, they must prove that it is serious to them as well.