On Affirmative Action....

[Extra Stout]

If your a rich white business owner, you call the shots, yeah, you may work a lot too, but you also generally have more flexibility to be there for your kids if they need you. In general, minorities who are successful and work a lot are already over-burdened, over-stressed at work, always over-spent at home, most are home for only a few hours with their kids every day. Fact is, whatever your skin color, statistics show that most parents spend less than a hour per day with their kids....so it's more than just culture....

Research has shown even after controlling for income and IQ, black children do worse than white children in school, and that the primary reason is a disparity, not in parental involvement, but in parental emphasis on education.

[Nbadan]

Research has shown even after controlling for income and IQ, black children do worse than white children in school, and that the primary reason is a disparity, not in parental involvement, but in parental emphasis on education.

No doubt because the parents has achieved a higher level of education...for instance, it's hard for a parent who has never taken calculus to teach their kids, or even see the importance in such a subject....

[johnsmith]

No doubt because the parents has achieved a higher level of education...for instance, it's hard for a parent who has never taken calculus to teach their kids, or even see the importance in such a subject....

I took calculus and I'm still wondering about the importance.

[Nbadan]

I took calculus and I'm still wondering about the importance.

Then you didn't really understand Calculus.......

[johnsmith]

Then you didn't really understand Calculus.......

Understood it enough to get a B while taking it in college.

[Nbadan]

...if you didn't understand what it's used for then you didn't really understand it...

[Wild Cobra]

I'm curious to see per-student funding rather than teacher pay.

If it's anything like Oregon, it's about $11,700 per high school student, and about $10,000 average per student K-12 average.

If you ask around, don't trust the numbers right away. Make sure you get the "all funds" numbers.

Much of this money seems to get lost at administaration levels. At 20 students per class, that's $200,000 per class! It shouldn't cost that much. Books, pay, benifits, utilities, etc. should still be much less than $200,000 class.

[xrayzebra]

It is correct that improving funding by itself does not improve educational results.

We also have seen that ins uting accountability measures, while improving the ability of students to pass a specific standardized test, does not improve actual educational results.

Has anyone around here ever taught in a poor district, or been close to someone who has? And by poor, I'm not talking about facilities. The difference is not that the kids don't have textbooks or working bathrooms (and when that is the case, it has a lot more to do with corrupt and incompetent administration than with lack of funding). The difference is that some kids have parents and families who, despite being poor, have been present in their lives and given them experiences to develop their minds, have provided a structured and stable home environment, and have made education a priority. As a generalization, this is more prevalent in Mexican immigrant families than in poor white, poor U.S. Hispanic, or poor black families (I became quite familiar with the truism 'La maestra siempre tiene razon.'). Those students tend to have higher achievement.

Other students have parents who are uninvolved in their lives, where there is no extended family in existence, where the kids have never so much as been out of their neighborhood in their lives, know nothing other than television, have no rules or structure, fall asleep in class because they stay up until 1 AM, have their parents' sex partners in and out of their homes, with stress, domestic violence, abuse, and either indifference or outright hostility to the concept of education. You could send those kids to schools made of cut marble with gold-leaf textbooks and mahogany desks, and they will still fail miserably. They may hang in there through the third or fourth grade, but eventually not only do they fail, but also through their inability to function in the social setting of school they cause the failure of those around them as well.

Government will never solve that problem unless we agree to take those kids away from their parents at an early age and make some kind of American Janissaries out of them.

Our culture is in full-scale collapse, and though it is most prevalent in the black community, because of its lack of cultural capital in the first place against which to fight the general social decay in America, this collapse is coming to everyone. We see it in the change in at ude from Mexican immigrants to third-generation Hispanics. We see it in poor whites. It is spreading in the middle class. Once the middle class falls, America as a meaningful power soon will cease to be. No foreign power will overtake us; we simply will perish of our own doing. And the idea that the federal government has the responsibility to fix the problem is indicative of the problem in the first place.

Every culture and society is subject to decay and corruption. Societies survive in cultures which understand this, and are vigilant to fight it. I don't mean that the governments are vigilant to fight it -- I mean that the people themselves are. Societies die when people become complacent and stuffing their faces while the house starts falling down around them, metaphorically speaking. They want other people to do their work for them while they play. They placate themselves with decadent pleasures while neglecting the discipline needed to maintain their own way of life. They give away their wealth for trifles.

It happened to the Romans. It happened to the Arabs. It happened to the Greeks. It happened to the Turks. It has happened to the Chinese several times. There is a big long book which Jews and Christians use that details how it happened over and over again to ancient Israel. Eventually the system gets so rotted out at the core that leaders can't reverse the momentum. The bed is already made. And then some calamity comes, the people go back into bondage, and only then do they see the error of their ways, change their course, and go back into the behaviors and disciplines which made their society successful in the first place.

ES, Yes. I have someone close who works in such a
school system. Kids who have parents who simply say
I can't do anything with the kid. Parents who not only
have sexual partners in and out of the house, but perform
in front of their children.

And are you correct when you say government cant
solve the problem. They can't solve the problem even
when they try to take the kids out of their environment.
Simply put, people in the community set the standards.
They always have and they always will. Government
has not only tried but has assumed this role, through
the court system and through legislation. And it has
not worked. Many people have thrown up their hands
and said how can I do anything? I would just end up in trouble. And the race baiters sit around and yell
"racism". Example: TLWisfoine. He wants government
to handle it. Government has handled it, like many
things and make an absolute mess of things. I will
even open myself up to more abuse. One of the
problems we face is that that "illegal" immigration has
taken many jobs from the so called "poor" and home-
less. And not taken jobs away from them but created
a "privilege" class. En led to special programs not
available to legal citizens.

The person close to me is my daughter who teaches
science in a predominately hispanic school. She has
some students and parents who will not even attempt
to complete school assignments. She also has had
students who have excelled when given half a chance
and some attention and challenged. There is no
one size fits all. And school administration gives
teachers no backing in most cases. Why? Because
of government and judicial rules.

It is really sad. You have educators who want to teach
and no one really backs them with exception of the
few parents who care for their children. Society has
turned it over to government and government is
governed by court rulings. And many parents have
conceded their responsibilities to the school who has
to abide by government edicts. One vicious circle.

And I might add, my daughter stays at considerably less
pay that she would earn in NSISD. I would like to
add that she has three daughters, one in college, and
two at home and she works with them on their school
work on a daily basis and they are in public school.
You see TLWisfoine money is not the determining factor,
it is the community as a whole. They not only set the
standards for children, but also for parents. Even if they
is just one parent. Without community involvement,
you have no standards.

You see, TLWisfoine, I have tried to make things better
myself my going into the classroom, lab, and painting
and cleaning. Why, because the school system says
they don't have enough money, horse hockey, they
don't spend money wisely. Weeds knee deep in the
"play ground". Faucets that don't work in the lab, how
much does a washer cost. But funny thing, they have
enough to hire a police force. Nice, huh?

[Nbadan]

Anyway, the rubicon of which I speak is that, in general, people spend less than 1 hour per day with their kids because Americans work too much....rich or poor, black or white, Americans work 30-40% more per week than their international counter-parts...

[Extra Stout]

Great take! You came so close to the real crust of the problem but refused to cross over the Rubicon Stout...

The real crust of the problem is that this American system where everybody is groomed to be mindless consumers who do the bidding of major corporations run by a small wealthy oligarchy is an evil distortion of the ideals on which this country was founded, and must be overthrown.

This culture where selfishness is made into a virtue, where the idea that 'every man is an island' is exalted at the expense of community, must be swept away. Individual rights only have meaning when built upon the foundation of a community. The very notion of personhood cannot be fulfilled without individual commitment to the community and community commitment to the individual. That even the churches in America fail to put this into practice shows how advanced the cancer is.

Unless and until that happens, we will keep slouching down under the thumb of tyranny, even a tyranny of our own making.

[xrayzebra]

^^Dan you are such a turd. Do you know what the work week
was when I was growing up. Men worked six days a week from
sunup to sundown. Work is not the problem. Homelife is the
problem. And stupid government interference. Mostly courts
and people who have too damn much time on their hands.

[Wild Cobra]

Wow... such diversity in though of what the problem is.

I have to agree with Ray. The family unit is where kids get most of the values for how they live. Without positive motivation for learning, we fail the kids. Many people say, and I agree, one major problem in the black communities is the lack of a father figure in the household.

[Extra Stout]

Anyway, the rubicon of which I speak is that, in general, people spend less than 1 hour per day with their kids because Americans work too much....rich or poor, black or white, Americans work 30-40% more per week than their international counter-parts...

That's because in our value system, who you are as a person is defined by your earning potential, and what you are able to buy. So not only do you need to work, work, work, so you can make more money, try to get ahead, but by golly, your kids can't be kids -- they need to be getting ready to get into the best prep schools and have the best activities so they can get into the best colleges, so they can maximize their own earning potential and become worthwhile human beings.

Wealth is a 72" 1080p HDTV in your 4000 square foot house with hardwood floors and granite countertops, with an Escalade with three DVD players parked out front, which can tow your boat out to your lake house. Wealth is having the brand new $1000 cell phone/organizer/camera/MP3 player/Internet browser/video player/GPS navigator/back massager because, well, there's an ad that says it will change my life. Wealth is a lifestyle filled with stuff, and we will chase our tails forever to have it.

And because we are Americans, by golly, we are en led to all that stuff, so don't stand in our way to keep us from it by whining about how we need to be concerned about other people. God wants me to have it too. That's the Gospel, right? Jesus died for my prosperity? There's a preacher on my 72" 1080p HDTV who says so.

And if you're poor -- and by poor, I don't mean that you're hungry and don't have decent shelter, but rather that you don't have as much cool stuff --well, you need to fight for your right to get access to all that stuff. It's not fair that you don't have as much stuff! Stuff defines your worth as a person!

Look at our glorious cities! Whereas in other parts of the world they build great cathedrals, and theaters, and opera houses, and museums, our great temples are Bass Pro Shops and Pottery Barns. The atria of our temples are great concrete and asphalt expanses full of SUV's lined up one after the other!

And enough of those so-called "churches" who say that Christians are meant to be founts of blessing who pour out grace on other people, who put others before themselves, who are called to be conformed to the image of Christ by manifesting the kingdom of God in how they live their lives. True faith is about how God wants to bless ME and how it makes me feel good about myself.

So what if we end up not living as long, and feel like garbage because we're so overweight and unhealthy, and never have time for ourselves, and our families fall apart, and our kids are a mess, and our streets are full of crime, and our bridges collapse, and our government starts monitoring everything we say and do to make sure we don't step out of line. None of that matters or defines our value. Stuff is the meaning of our lives. Whoever has the most toys wins.

Did I cross the Rubicon yet?

[Extra Stout]

^^Dan you are such a turd. Do you know what the work week
was when I was growing up. Men worked six days a week from
sunup to sundown. Work is not the problem. Homelife is the
problem. And stupid government interference. Mostly courts
and people who have too damn much time on their hands.

When you were growing up, did both parents usually have to work?

[Nbadan]

^^Dan you are such a turd. Do you know what the work week
was when I was growing up. Men worked six days a week from
sunup to sundown. Work is not the problem. Homelife is the
problem. And stupid government interference. Mostly courts
and people who have too damn much time on their hands.

Men worked 6 days a week Ray....today, both parents work 5 or 6 days a week...

[xrayzebra]

When you were growing up, did both parents usually have to work?

ES, I have been grown up for a long time. Both parents
don't have to work today. They do because they want all
that stuff you posted about.

My wife didn't work, until the kids were out of school and
then only briefly. We did without the luxury items, just
stuck with the basics.

Uncle gets a big share of what both make anyhow.
Along with Child care, and on and on and on.......so
get off my case.

[Extra Stout]

ES, I have been grown up for a long time. Both parents don't have to work today. They do because they want all
that stuff you posted about.

My wife didn't work, until the kids were out of school and
then only briefly. We did without the luxury items, just
stuck with the basics.

Uncle gets a big share of what both make anyhow.
Along with Child care, and on and on and on.......so
get off my case.

Bold added for emphasis. And I'm not talking about "the poor." I'm talking about regular, middle-class America.

ray, would you say you are worse off now because you didn't have some of those luxuries?

[xrayzebra]

Bold added for emphasis. And I'm not talking about "the poor." I'm talking about regular, middle-class America.

ray, would you say you are worse off now because you didn't have some of those luxuries?

No, I am very comfortable with my life. I am not rich but
I am damn sure not poor. I learned to live within my means.
I learned, the hard way, don't over extend yourself and use
credit wisely. My kids didn't suffer, I look at my Grandkids
and wonder why all the stuff they MUST have, obviously,
how I lived didn't rub off too much on my kids. They seem
to buy whatever their curtain pullers want. And I guess
I have done my share of spoiling the little creatures and
some of the big one's too....LOL.

It seems you cant really afford kids until they are grown.
Not true, I know, an old saying. Life is just so different
now than when I was growing up. I grew up in Texas, as
I have said before. Texas was not that populated, no
air conditioning in those days, so us kids did what any
normal kid did. We hunted, yeah, I had a gun and was
allowed to hunt at 12 years of age, I knew what not to
do, so long as I could find the money for some s s.
Guns were not forbidden, long guns. Hand guns weren't
really desired. The old saying, hand guns were made to
kill people. Rifles were made for hunting. We didn't
really have toys. Footballs or baseballs and bats and
such. But you saved the money to buy them yourself.
First Red Ryder BB gun I owned I bought myself, paid
I think 4.98 for it and saved like for it and if I
remember correctly my Grandmother gave me last
little bit I needed for it. Yeah, Grandparents spoiled
their Grandkids too......

But anyway, nope, I don't think my life could have been
any better, as a kid or adult. I wished sometimes, some
of you could experience it. It was and is a good life.

[Extra Stout]

No, I am very comfortable with my life. I am not rich but
I am damn sure not poor. I learned to live within my means.
I learned, the hard way, don't over extend yourself and use
credit wisely. My kids didn't suffer, I look at my Grandkids
and wonder why all the stuff they MUST have, obviously,
how I lived didn't rub off too much on my kids. They seem
to buy whatever their curtain pullers want. And I guess
I have done my share of spoiling the little creatures and
some of the big one's too....LOL.

It seems you cant really afford kids until they are grown.
Not true, I know, an old saying. Life is just so different
now than when I was growing up. I grew up in Texas, as
I have said before. Texas was not that populated, no
air conditioning in those days, so us kids did what any
normal kid did. We hunted, yeah, I had a gun and was
allowed to hunt at 12 years of age, I knew what not to
do, so long as I could find the money for some s s.
Guns were not forbidden, long guns. Hand guns weren't
really desired. The old saying, hand guns were made to
kill people. Rifles were made for hunting. We didn't
really have toys. Footballs or baseballs and bats and
such. But you saved the money to buy them yourself.
First Red Ryder BB gun I owned I bought myself, paid
I think 4.98 for it and saved like for it and if I
remember correctly my Grandmother gave me last
little bit I needed for it. Yeah, Grandparents spoiled
their Grandkids too......

But anyway, nope, I don't think my life could have been
any better, as a kid or adult. I wished sometimes, some
of you could experience it. It was and is a good life.

WHAT??!! Saving up for own money for things? And... did you actually go outside to play? No XBox?

Footballs? You mean like a youth league, right? Not just a bunch of kids in the neighborhood finding an open field to go play in -- that's unheard of. You can get a lot of good exercise with your thumbs playing Madden on your PS3 rofl lol lol rofl

But... but... I don't understand! How could you possibly have all those good memories without STUFF?! 50 years from now kids today will have fond memories of their Nokia ix3000 cell phones they used to text message while sitting inside tweaking their myspace profiles all day on their Thinkpads in between Madden NFL tournaments, won't they?

[TLWisfoine]

It is correct that improving funding by itself does not improve educational results.

We also have seen that ins uting accountability measures, while improving the ability of students to pass a specific standardized test, does not improve actual educational results.

Has anyone around here ever taught in a poor district, or been close to someone who has? And by poor, I'm not talking about facilities. The difference is not that the kids don't have textbooks or working bathrooms (and when that is the case, it has a lot more to do with corrupt and incompetent administration than with lack of funding). The difference is that some kids have parents and families who, despite being poor, have been present in their lives and given them experiences to develop their minds, have provided a structured and stable home environment, and have made education a priority. As a generalization, this is more prevalent in Mexican immigrant families than in poor white, poor U.S. Hispanic, or poor black families (I became quite familiar with the truism 'La maestra siempre tiene razon.'). Those students tend to have higher achievement.

Other students have parents who are uninvolved in their lives, where there is no extended family in existence, where the kids have never so much as been out of their neighborhood in their lives, know nothing other than television, have no rules or structure, fall asleep in class because they stay up until 1 AM, have their parents' sex partners in and out of their homes, with stress, domestic violence, abuse, and either indifference or outright hostility to the concept of education. You could send those kids to schools made of cut marble with gold-leaf textbooks and mahogany desks, and they will still fail miserably. They may hang in there through the third or fourth grade, but eventually not only do they fail, but also through their inability to function in the social setting of school they cause the failure of those around them as well.

Government will never solve that problem unless we agree to take those kids away from their parents at an early age and make some kind of American Janissaries out of them.

Our culture is in full-scale collapse, and though it is most prevalent in the black community, because of its lack of cultural capital in the first place against which to fight the general social decay in America, this collapse is coming to everyone. We see it in the change in at ude from Mexican immigrants to third-generation Hispanics. We see it in poor whites. It is spreading in the middle class. Once the middle class falls, America as a meaningful power soon will cease to be. No foreign power will overtake us; we simply will perish of our own doing. And the idea that the federal government has the responsibility to fix the problem is indicative of the problem in the first place.

Every culture and society is subject to decay and corruption. Societies survive in cultures which understand this, and are vigilant to fight it. I don't mean that the governments are vigilant to fight it -- I mean that the people themselves are. Societies die when people become complacent and stuffing their faces while the house starts falling down around them, metaphorically speaking. They want other people to do their work for them while they play. They placate themselves with decadent pleasures while neglecting the discipline needed to maintain their own way of life. They give away their wealth for trifles.

It happened to the Romans. It happened to the Arabs. It happened to the Greeks. It happened to the Turks. It has happened to the Chinese several times. There is a big long book which Jews and Christians use that details how it happened over and over again to ancient Israel. Eventually the system gets so rotted out at the core that leaders can't reverse the momentum. The bed is already made. And then some calamity comes, the people go back into bondage, and only then do they see the error of their ways, change their course, and go back into the behaviors and disciplines which made their society successful in the first place.

This is a great take on this ES and I agree with it. This isn't just limited to blacks but all of America it has just hit the black community first. I don't know what has happened since my generation, the generation that fought and died for the right to recieve an education but seeing this breaks my heart.

You have another great point about the change in at ude between first generation immigrants and the third generation. Many of these people came to America for a better life, but their children become too "Americanized" and soon forget or just don't care about the hardships of the generation that came before them that gave them the oppourtunity that they want to sqaunder away.

[xrayzebra]

WHAT??!! Saving up for own money for things? And... did you actually go outside to play? No XBox?

Footballs? You mean like a youth league, right? Not just a bunch of kids in the neighborhood finding an open field to go play in -- that's unheard of. You can get a lot of good exercise with your thumbs playing Madden on your PS3 rofl lol lol rofl

But... but... I don't understand! How could you possibly have all those good memories without STUFF?! 50 years from now kids today will have fond memories of their Nokia ix3000 cell phones they used to text message while sitting inside tweaking their myspace profiles all day on their Thinkpads in between Madden NFL tournaments, won't they?

organized sports. Well yeah we had them
in school. We even went out played church teams in
softball. I guess I shouldn't say it, but we loved it. The
folks at the church fixed some really good eating. And
cobblers like you have never tasted. When I say
church teams, I mean our school team did. Of course
they still do today, until some court rules otherwise....
little sarcasm there.......

ES, you really don't want to get me started on the games
us kids used to play. I could talk for hours about where
and how we played them. Hey most of us guys learned
about sex sitting under a street light after wearing our
selves out playing, magic circle on an icebox, or kick
the can or red rover come over. Now red rover come
over was a favorite in school, never be allowed now days.
Rough, rough. Not only on your but clothes and teachers
would get a little angry when a shirt or pants got
torn off you and they would have to put things back
together so you could finish the school day.....

[Extra Stout]

This is a great take on this ES and I agree with it. This isn't just limited to blacks but all of America it has just hit the black community first. I don't know what has happened since my generation, the generation that fought and died for the right to recieve an education but seeing this breaks my heart.

You have another great point about the change in at ude between first generation immigrants and the third generation. Many of these people came to America for a better life, but their children become too "Americanized" and soon forget or just don't care about the hardships of the generation that came before them that gave them the oppourtunity that they want to sqaunder away.

My hypothesis is that the black community was devastated by integration. That sounds scandalous, but I'll explain.

Under segregation, black people adapted and set up an economy that depended upon segregation. Since blacks could not go to white restaurants, or stay in white hotels, or shop at white stores, they had to set up their own. So there were a fair number of black business owners and concomitant jobs.

Now, the black businesses were not compe ive with white ones, because of their unequal access to capital, but they were shielded by the ins ution of segregation.

Then, when integration came, it was an integration only of consumers and of labor. Blacks could patronize white businesses and work for them. However, since the issue of unequal capital access was not addressed ahead of time, the black-run economy was immediately uncompe ive and promptly collapsed.

This led to widespread loss of jobs and general social collapse for all blacks except for the "talented tenth," which had the resources to succeed in the white economy.

A good analogy would be Jackie Robinson. We all pat ourselves on the back because he was allowed to play for the Brooklyn Dodgers. However, once the Major Leagues were integrated, the Negro Leagues collapsed and disappeared. Whoever owned those teams lost everything, while the owners of the Major Leagues got the benefit of an influx of elite labor. All the vendors, and groundskeepers, and ticket-takers, and clubhouse assistants in the Negro Leagues were out of luck. Nobody ever gave any thought towards absorbing the Homestead Grays and Kansas City Monarchs into the Major Leagues.

[TLWisfoine]

My hypothesis is that the black community was devastated by integration. That sounds scandalous, but I'll explain.

Under segregation, black people adapted and set up an economy that depended upon segregation. Since blacks could not go to white restaurants, or stay in white hotels, or shop at white stores, they had to set up their own. So there were a fair number of black business owners and concomitant jobs.

Now, the black businesses were not compe ive with white ones, because of their unequal access to capital, but they were shielded by the ins ution of segregation.

Then, when integration came, it was an integration only of consumers and of labor. Blacks could patronize white businesses and work for them. However, since the issue of unequal capital access was not addressed ahead of time, the black-run economy was immediately uncompe ive and promptly collapsed.

This led to widespread loss of jobs and general social collapse for all blacks except for the "talented tenth," which had the resources to succeed in the white economy.

A good analogy would be Jackie Robinson. We all pat ourselves on the back because he was allowed to play for the Brooklyn Dodgers. However, once the Major Leagues were integrated, the Negro Leagues collapsed and disappeared. Whoever owned those teams lost everything, while the owners of the Major Leagues got the benefit of an influx of elite labor. All the vendors, and groundskeepers, and ticket-takers, and clubhouse assistants in the Negro Leagues were out of luck. Nobody ever gave any thought towards absorbing the Homestead Grays and Kansas City Monarchs into the Major Leagues.

40 Million Slaves by Gregory Kane. Yeah I read about that and its an interesting take on things.