Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 69
  1. #26
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Post Count
    32,408
    ...and now we come to learn that many of Dubya's accusations about an Iraq-Al Queda link we extracted from prisoners who were buried alive...

    <snip>

    In a CIA sub-station close to al Libi's jail cell, the CIA's "debriefers," who had been talking to al Libi for days after his return from Cairo, were typing out a series of operational cables to be sent Feb. 4 and Feb. 5 to the CIA Headquarters in Langley, Va. In the view of some insiders, these cables provide the "smoking gun" on the whole rendition program -- a convincing account of how the rendition program was, they say, illegally sending prisoners into the hands of torturers.

    Under torture after his rendition to Egypt, al Libi had provided a confession of how Saddam Hussein had been training al Qaeda in chemical weapons. This evidence was used by Colin Powell at the United Nations a year earlier (February 2003) to justify the war in Iraq. ("I can trace the story of a senior terrorist operative telling how Iraq provided training in these weapons to al Qaeda," Powell said. "Fortunately, this operative is now detained, and he has told his story.")

    But now, hearing how the information was obtained, the CIA was soon to retract all this intelligence. A Feb. 5 cable records that al Libi was told by a "foreign government service" (Egypt) that: "the next topic was al-Qa'ida's connections with Iraq...This was a subject about which he said he knew nothing and had difficulty even coming up with a story."

    ...

    Here was a cable then that informed Washington that one of the key pieces of evidence for the Iraq war -- the al Qaeda/Iraq link -- was not only false but extracted by effectively burying a prisoner alive.


    ...

    Last September, these red-hot CIA cables were declassified and published by the Senate Intelligence Committee, but in, a welter of other news, one of the most important do ents in the history of rendition had passed almost without notice by the media. As far as I can tell, not a single newspaper reported details of the cable. (Senate Intelligence Committee, page 81, paragraph 2)

    A spokesman of the intelligence committee told me last month: "We were not able to establish definitively who was told about the cable or its contents or who read it." Other members of Congress may soon be taking up this story to find out just who at the White House was told about the cable.
    ABC News

    Torturing people until they tell you what you want to hear always works!


  2. #27
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Post Count
    154,406
    Slate gives a little more information about the Vietnem waterboarding:

    Which brings us to the most notorious torture: waterboarding, or choking someone in water. In 1968, a soldier in the 1st Cavalry Division was court-martialed for waterboarding a prisoner in Vietnam. In fact, the practice was identified as a crime as early as 1901, when the Army judge advocate general court-martialed Maj. Edwin Glenn of the 5th U.S. Infantry for waterboarding, a technique he did not hesitate to call torture.

    Glenn's case is very real. There are even quotes from his testimony specifically about waterboarding in the archives of the New York Times from 1902.

    http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...619C946397D6CF

    It's precedent. A US Army officer was court-martialed and convicted for waterboarding.

    If you need a lesson on how precedent influences and determines court decisions that follow, ask FWD.

  3. #28
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Post Count
    32,408
    Mukasey Is (Much) Worse Than Gonzales
    by John Nichols


    George Bush’s nominee to replace disgraced former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, retired Federal Judge Michael B. Mukasey, must be rejected by the Senate Judiciary Committee for the same reason that Gonzales should have been rejected in 2005.

    Like Gonzales, Mukasey refuses to accept that the president of the United States must abide by the laws of the land, beginning with the Cons ution. In fact, the nominee to replace the worst Attorney General since Calvin Coolidge forced Harry Micajah Daugherty to quit rather than face impeachment is actually takes a more extreme position in defense of an imperial presidency than did Gonzales.

    When questioned by Judiciary Committee chair Patrick Leahy, D-Vermont and Cons ution sub-committee chair Russ Feingold, D-Wisconsin, during the key hearing on his nomination, Mukasey embraces an interpretation of presidential authority so radical that it virtually guarantees more serious abuses of power by the executive branch.

    There is no question that one of the ugliest manifestations of that expansion of authority involves the Bush-Cheney administration’s embrace of extraordinary rendition and torture as tools for achieving its ends. But those who focus too intensely on Mukasey’s troubling dance around the waterboarding question make a mistake. Even if the nominee were to embrace the Geneva Conventions — not to mention the 8th Amendment to the U.S. Cons ution — and condemn all forms of torture as the cruel and unusual punishment that they are, he would still be an entirely unacceptable choice to serve as the nation’s chief law-enforcement officer.


    And while some Democrats on the Judiciary Committee have made their peace with Mukasey — shame on New York’s Chuck Schumer and California’s Dianne Feinstein — the fight to block this nomination cannot be abandoned. Mukasey’s critics on the committee, led by Leahy and Feingold, should do everything in their power to re-frame the debate to focus on the broader question of whether a president can break the law — and on the nominee’s entirely unacceptable answers to it. They should pressure Schumer and Feinstein to reconsider, and they should reach out, aggressively, to “Republicans who know better” such as Pennsylvania Senator Arlen Specter.

    Mukasey has made the case against his confirmation more convincingly than any of his critics.

    The former judge has defended the administration’s attempts to dramatically expand the definition of executive privilege, telling the Judiciary Committee that it would be inappropriate for a U.S. attorney to press for contempt charges against a White House official who claimed to be protected by a grant of executive privilege. Under this reading of the law, U.S. attorneys would cease to be independent defenders of the rule of law and become mere extensions of the White House.

    As such, Mukasey accepts a politicization of U.S. Attorneys far more extreme than that attempted by Gonzales and former White House political czar Karl Rove when they sought to remove U.S. Attorneys who failed to fully embrace the administration’s electoral and ideological goals.

    But Mukasey does not stop there.

    Under questioning from Feingold, Mukasey endorsed the administration’s argument that congressional attempts to define appropriate surveillance strategies and techniques could infringe inappropriately on presidential authority.

    When pressed by Feingold, Mukasey refused to say whether he thought the president could order a violation of federal wiretapping rules. Feingold’s response was measured. “I find your equivocation here somewhat troubling,” said the senator.

    In fact, everything about Mukasey’s testimony suggested that he would as Attorney General be more of a threat to Cons utional governance than the inept and frequently inarticulate Gonzales. Mukasey gives every indication that he is as enthusiastic as was Gonzales about helping the president to bend and break they law. The scary thing is that Mukasey appears to be a good deal abler when it comes to cloaking lawlessness in a veneer of legal uncertainty.

    Consider the nominee’s suggestion that the president can ignore any law, including the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, if he and his lawyers determine that the law impinges on his authority as commander in chief during wartime.

    “The president is not putting somebody above the law; the president is putting somebody within the law,” Mukasey explained, with a response that employed legalese at levels not heard in Washington since Richard Nixon boarded that last plane for San Clemente. “The president doesn’t stand above the law. But the law emphatically includes the Cons ution.”


    Leahy said after that “troubling” statement by the man who would be the nation’s chief law enforcement officer: “I see a loophole big enough to drive a truck through.”

    The Judiciary Committee chair is right. It’s the truck carrying the trappings of an imperial presidency. And Mukasey should not be handed the keys.
    Common Dreams

  4. #29
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    Mukasey Is (Much) Worse Than Gonzales
    by John Nichols


    Common Dreams
    Too late, Dan. He's gonna be confirmed.

  5. #30
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Post Count
    19,921
    The U. S. Government cops to 3 instances of waterboarding and, on the one case they name publicly -- Khalid Sheik Mohammed -- they claim it led to actionable, valuable, and accurate intelligence that resulted in saving many lives.
    Well, as long as it works, it's all good, I guess. Maybe the administration should encourage troops to simulate beheadings or resurrect some of Saddam's interrogation techniques. I mean, this isn't about being better than the terrorists we fight -- if they do it, there's no reason that we shouldn't; it's all about undertaking whatever measures are necessary to allow a claim that the technique led to actionable, valuable, and accurate intelligence.

    I will say this: we began this thread with you wondering why Mukasey should call it torture when Congress won't. ChumpDumper has provided precedent to show that there have been at least two court-martials for waterboarding that resulted in convictions; he's also shown that precedent identifying waterboarding as torture has existed since as early as 1901. It would seem that neither Mukasey nor Congress is particularly justified in suggesting that waterboarding isn't torture, since do ents that bind United States servicemen and servicewomen -- likely, the only persons who might be engaging in waterboarding -- have been construed to make waterboarding torture. It's not just some willy-nilly construction of those do ents; it's a construction that supported convictions in multiple courts martial.

    I'm quite sure you're not my type.

  6. #31
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    Well, as long as it works, it's all good, I guess. Maybe the administration should encourage troops to simulate beheadings or resurrect some of Saddam's interrogation techniques. I mean, this isn't about being better than the terrorists we fight -- if they do it, there's no reason that we shouldn't; it's all about undertaking whatever measures are necessary to allow a claim that the technique led to actionable, valuable, and accurate intelligence.
    Both the military and the CIA claim to have stopped the use of waterboarding. If this is true, I expect (and certainly hope) it’s because (1) we haven’t captured any high value terrorists recently from whom we’ve been unable to obtain vital information through conventional interrogation methods or (2) we’ve found other unconventional coercive methods that are as effective as waterboarding.

    If the U.S. really is done with waterboarding, then it’s appropriate to bid it farewell with this tribure by Deroy Murdock called “Hooray for Waterboardng.” (I would have used a different le, though – it’s not waterboarding that should be praised; it’s our willingness to resort to the technique in exigent cir stances when all else has failed).

    Murdock recounts -- as I've already mentioned -- how Khalid Sheikh Mohammad (KSM), the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, stayed mum for months after he was captured, typically answering questions with Koranic chants. Finally, his interrogators waterboarded him. According to a CIA veteran quoted in the New Yorker, KSM sang right away. In doing so, he enabled the government to arrest at least six major terrorists. Keep that in mind the next time someone mindlessly asserts that waterboarding doesn’t work.

    As Murdock explains, waterboarding loosens lips without causing physical injury. Its critics claim that the technique results in severe emotional distress, including nightmares. However, this doesn’t seem to be the case among U.S. personnel on whom the technique has been used during training. The distress terrorists experience is probably related to the guilt they feel over having spilled their guts. That distress isn’t something we should feel badly about.

    I question the common sense of those who become hysterical over treatment of terrorists that is not much more severe -- if any more severe -- than that to which we subject our own young soldiers and pilots.

    I will say this: we began this thread with you wondering why Mukasey should call it torture when Congress won't.
    This Democratic Congress had a chance to pass a law that would specifically make the practice illegal. They didn't.

    ChumpDumper has provided precedent to show that there have been at least two court-martials for waterboarding that resulted in convictions;
    I only recall the mention of one, maybe he was on ignore when he listed two. Could you please provide the two cases again?

    he's also shown that precedent identifying waterboarding as torture has existed since as early as 1901.
    What he failed to show is there are multiple techniques for waterboarding, most of which even I would consider torture. But, in fact, the current technique only bears resemblance because it shares a name and the fact water is involved.

    It would seem that neither Mukasey nor Congress is particularly justified in suggesting that waterboarding isn't torture, since do ents that bind United States servicemen and servicewomen -- likely, the only persons who might be engaging in waterboarding -- have been construed to make waterboarding torture.
    Actually, it's our intelligence services that are more likely to be engaged in the practice and, certainly, if I were this president, I would make damn sure the practice was confined to non-military spook agencies.

    It's not just some willy-nilly construction of those do ents; it's a construction that supported convictions in multiple courts martial.
    Again, please give cite the courts martial cases. I'd like to read up on them and determine, for myself, how much the actual technique had to do with the court martial.

    And, while I'm not accusing the construction of being "willy-nilly," I do believe it basically mischaracterized the nature of the technique being employed -- and does so knowing the method of waterboarding used on Khalid Sheik Mohammed is very much different than the method used by the Japanese that got them a war crimes charge.

    I'm quite sure you're not my type.
    Fine, go yourself.

  7. #32
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    Code Pink "Waterboards"

    Notice in the video, at the 46 second mark, that when the towel is removed it keeps a shape. If you pour a gallon of water on a towel, it does not keep shape like this. There is a shield of some type under the towel keeping the water from getting into the participant’s nose and mouth. Watch closely. Nothing but propaganda.

    Of course, if they really were to do this to one another for political propaganda, how would that justify that it is wrong to do it to a dangerous terrorist that has information that could save thousands of lives? They would kinda be defeating their own purpose wouldn’t they? So, since it is obviously fake, why is the moonbat whining and sniffling so much?

    What better way to prove that waterboarding is torture than to perform it on one another in front of the Capitol? It is now official. More liberals have been waterboarded than terrorists. According to the left, this is one of America’s worst forms of “torture”. What a bunch of B.S! If the terrorists whine as much as this moonbat after going through this, and give up the answers we need to save lives…I don’t see the problem.

  8. #33
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
    My Team
    Dallas Mavericks
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Post Count
    25,321
    Notice in the video, at the 46 second mark, that when the towel is removed it keeps a shape. If you pour a gallon of water on a towel, it does not keep shape like this. There is a shield of some type under the towel keeping the water from getting into the participant’s nose and mouth. Watch closely. Nothing but propaganda.
    mouse?

  9. #34
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    Kind of looks like him, eh?

  10. #35
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Post Count
    154,406


    Notice how Yoni is flailing around now -- claiming he knows exactly how KSM was waterboarded when US officials only ever give the line theat they don't discuss techniques.

    All he and any waterboarding fan is saying is they have no problem with our servicemen and women being waterboarded by our enemies, and our enemies should never face any consequences for doing so.

    I value the people of our armed forces more than that.

  11. #36
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Post Count
    32,408
    All he and any waterboarding fan is saying is they have no problem with our servicemen and women being waterboarded by our enemies, and our enemies should never face any consequences for doing so.
    Why should they, after all, its not torture....neither are stress positions, depriving food and water...cold rooms....

  12. #37
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    Why should they, after all, its not torture....neither are stress positions, depriving food and water...cold rooms....
    As if our enemies are merely waterboarding our troops.















    After which, our soldiers are usually beheaded, mutilated, drug through the streets, set on fire, photographed, videotaped, and left for the dogs to eat.

  13. #38
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Post Count
    154,406
    Notice how Yoni tries to distract form the fact that he is fine with anyone waterboarding our troops now, in the past and in the future.

  14. #39
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Post Count
    32,408
    Well, at least we're not lowering ourselves to Al-Queda's levels (the secretarian violence and torture in Iraq sparked by the U.S. invasion aside)...our torture is humane...

  15. #40
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Post Count
    19,921
    Ah, yes -- the old, "our forms of torture are so much less egregious than their forms of torture" justification.

  16. #41
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    Ah, yes -- the old, "our forms of torture are so much less egregious than their forms of torture" justification.
    I was merely responding to the idiotic premise that if we waterboarded terrorists then they'd waterboard us. They have no interest in waterboarding...it doesn't kill people.

    I know of no known instance of al Qaeda waterboarding a U. S. Soldier. So, right there, the premise dies...as do our soldiers in their custody. However, there are plenty of instances of them doing exactly what is described in my post.

    And, I've yet to concede waterboarding -- as practices by the U.S. -- is a form of torture.

  17. #42
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Post Count
    154,406
    Who said anything about terrorists waterboarding US soldiers specifically?

    That's the thing about putting people on ignore. It makes you even more ignorant.

  18. #43
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Post Count
    9,096
    Who said anything about terrorists waterboarding US soldiers specifically?



    That's the thing about putting people on ignore. It makes you even more ignorant.
    What a joke you are Chump. Your such a twerp!
    Terrorist do much more than water boarding. Like chop
    heads off, drag dead people through streets and hang
    burned bodies from bridges. And you, the small, silly
    person you are make fun of any remarks anyone makes
    against them. Bush and the United States is not your
    enemy. Unfortunately, you don't realize that, like your
    supporters who chime in at every opportunity. God
    help you.

  19. #44
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Post Count
    154,406
    Why can't you guys stay on point?

    Oh yeah -- you're trying to distract from the fact that you are fine with Americans being waterboarded by our enemies and would have no consequences attached to it.

  20. #45
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    Who said anything about terrorists waterboarding US soldiers specifically?

    That's the thing about putting people on ignore. It makes you even more ignorant.
    Nbadan posted this quote...

    All he and any waterboarding fan is saying is they have no problem with our servicemen and women being waterboarded by our enemies, and our enemies should never face any consequences for doing so.
    ...which, until now, I suspected was from your ignored post between mine and his. Either that or you have yourself on ignore; or, a very bad memory.

    Mad Cow?

  21. #46
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Post Count
    154,406
    Thanks for pointing out that I said nothing about terrorists specifically, dumbass.

    It's such a big help when you prove my point for me.

  22. #47
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Post Count
    32,408

  23. #48
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Post Count
    9,096
    Why can't you guys stay on point?

    Oh yeah -- you're trying to distract from the fact that you are fine with Americans being waterboarded by our enemies and would have no consequences attached to it.
    How about you staying on point. Who is your enemy. I
    get sick and tired of your junk. You enjoy putting people
    down who only do one thing and support their country.
    You silly person, they attack us, they want to kill YOU and
    me and you want to make dumb statements about how we
    mistreat them by pouring some water on their face.
    You want torture, how about some real torture. Or as
    the Mexicans say, take them to 110. 110=volts.
    You damn people make me sick.

  24. #49
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Post Count
    9,096

    Yeah dan, you are another one. Put your silly tinfoil
    hat back on and crawl back under your rock. You spend
    more time trolling the web than making a living or doing
    something worthwhile. Like Chump I would remind you
    that your country is not your worst enemy. Google
    Terrorist.

  25. #50
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    Frickin' hilarious. Thanks.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •