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Who said it has to be oil companies that build them?
refiner's LOVE supply constricted way below demand.
They won't build new refineries, they won't secure the existing refineries.
Edgar/Charlie abet the oilcos' strategies by giving $100B to the ethanol scam, which the refiner's can use as pretext for not building new capacity in the face of the rise of ethanol.
Who said it has to be oil companies that build them?
Whether it's an oil company refining it's own oil into products/fuel, or independent refining companies that buy oil to produce products/fuel, the scarcity incentive remains the same.
I just learned the other day the methods for extracting oil from the planet (Dan link, I think). It works on a Bell curve, inasmuch that at some point, the amount of energy put in trying to get oil out is imbalanced and reversed exponentially.
Lets say one barrel of oil is "X" amount of energy for human consumption.
At some point, according to the experts, it takes 2X energy to extract 1X of oil. And the downward spiral begins.
The exact apex is hard to know and difficult to predict. Unfortunately, we (and they) will only know when we have reached that point 10 years after we passed it. Most agree that we are in the midst of the apex. The rest is severly downhill, according to them.
The free market isn't content to let a few oil barons corner the market. Not since anti-trust laws were invented anyway.
If there's money to be made, there are billion-dollar corporations out there -- unrelated to the industry -- that would build a multi-billion dollar refinery and start cranking out product in order to get in on the gig.
The problem is, it's a punitive process with no guarantee of a return on your investment. A multi-billion dollar corporation could become a billion-dollar corporation in the process and never get to fill it's first tanker truck.
Jumping the enviro-whacko hurdles is just to daunting (and expensive).
I will allow this, however. The oil companies and current refiners have no incentive to build more refinery capacity.
Last edited by Yonivore; 11-15-2007 at 10:09 AM.
"anti-trust laws"
... political fiction and enforcement, is why dubya got his DoJ and juidiciary to fold on the MS case, letting MS continue to be an abusive, predatory, price-gouging monopoly. Is why dubya's FERC allowed the cartel of Kennyboy's Enron and ilk up the energy markets out west in early 2000s.
"enviro-whacko hurdles"
... lookup the cancer clusters around refineries along the TX-LA Gulf coast.
And would you like to look out your backyard and see a hulking pile of pipes, steel, tanks and what that does to your property value?
The main incentive against building refineries is that they know the demand in unsatiable and restricting supply (insufficient refining capacity) is the BEST way to reap windfall 10s of $Bs in profits by doing absolutely ing nothing. Environmental and alternative fuels are the refiners' totally false pretexts for not increasing capacity.
OK, nobody really knows how much oil we can get from ANWR, but it is pretty big.
The proposed site is only a very small percentage of ANWR.
Wildlife flourishes around oil pipelines because of the added warmth.
Where is the drawbacks? I see none. It's just liberal politicians pleasing the nutty activists.
"it is pretty big.'
lie. Even the oil men when trying to get ANWR raped, don't put up big numbers that impact US oil independence, but they do put $Bs profits into oilmen's pockets.
drawbacks? RIF
Aggressive, Apollo-like program for transport oil conservation would pay off much more in dropping transport oil demand than the ANWR oil droplets.
Last edited by boutons_; 11-15-2007 at 07:20 PM.
True, it is pretty big. But it is small, infinitesimal potatoes to the middle east.
ANWR wouldnt last American consumption for more than 10 years. Thats a very, VERY generous guess.
So if 10 years is the MAX, that couldnt even be considered a band-aid to the problem.
The long and short of it, we consume too much and have grown too used to our condition. Unless we find alternatives to fossil fuels (yeah right), the world is going to run out in essence (ie fuel will still be available, but its going to cost....guess, $15 a gallon or more).
...Oil smells like ....(i.e. just outside Corpus, and West Tx)....not to mention the chance of a catastrophic oil spill....Where is the drawbacks? I see none. It's just liberal politicians pleasing the nutty activists.
Dan, you were born 10,000 years too late.
At least the republicans are trying to bring us lower prices. Didn't Nancy Pelosi promise gasoline price drops with a democrat congress? I saw that today in the news, and that the prices are 39% higher since she was elected as the House Speaker!
Way to go democrats…
How much higher are gas prices since W came into office in 01, 125%? Besides who's top-secret energy policy is it that got us to where we are today, Nancy Pelosi's or Cheney's?
Yeah, bombing Iraq, and maybe Iran are working..At least the republicans are trying to bring us lower prices
Did he promise to make prices lower, and is he the leader of the branch of government that makes laws and regulations?
Speculating on the secret energy meetings? That’s all it is. Speculation. It denigrates you to the level of whacky conspiracy theorists. In the 70's there was rumor of the government stockpiling reserves. Now we know they do. These secret meeting may be on the level of a conspiracy, but I don't believe it. I see it more likely the government made arrangements to stockpile given quan ies for emergencies that was given the same level of negotiation as any private meeting we can enjoy. Show good evidence of malice, or stop being a subversive please.
Please.... you know better, don't you?
Pelosi made the promise, and her district has the nationwide highest prices!
I’ve missed mush of these discussions, but Yoni is right.
It is difficult to increase production of oil and refining capacity because of the regulations, and lawsuits that follow from the environmentalists.
The USA is, I believe, the third highest producer of oil, and we use more than we produce. Whining liberals keep talking about energy independence but that’s all they are. Talking windbags.
It's Too bad we have to speculate in the first place because our glorious V.P. won't release the transcript of his secret energy meetings....can't be because he had plans for seeking new, controversial techniques for domestic energy efficiency..more than likely he and his oil buddies had already craved up Iraq and Iran...Speculating on the secret energy meetings?
So why aren't the oil-Co's using their billions to build refineries in other countries or off-shore where they would not be subject to U.S. environmental laws? Because the whole 'environmental wacko's are keeping us from exploring ANWR and building new refineries' is b.s. that's why....the oil companies know that we are running out of oil - the North Shore, Mexico, Saudi Arabia among other large oil fields are all in decline - so it would be a waste to build new refineries for a commodity which is in shorter and shorter supply...It is difficult to increase production of oil and refining capacity because of the regulations, and lawsuits that follow from the environmentalists.
The USA is, I believe, the third highest producer of oil, and we use more than we produce. Whining liberals keep talking about energy independence but that’s all they are. Talking windbags.
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