Finley struggling...time to start Barry?

[AFBlue]

Exactly! He may be in a pretty bad slump offensively. But on the defensive end he's doing a pretty decent job. And in pops mind defense > offense.

A "pretty decent job" doesn't make up for how horrible he has been on the offensive side of the ball.

Bowen could get away with that excuse because he does better than a "pretty decent job" on defense and that's his role.

Unfortunately, Finley's primary role is not to be a lockdown defender, but instead to knock down shots...both wide open or contested. And in his primary role he's been downright awful.

BTW, there's this other guy who is said to be a pretty good defender....his name is Ime Udoka. If he were given an opportunity to hit those wide open jumpshots, maybe he might be the better option...

But we'll never know if no changes are made.

[AFBlue]

IMO, if it ain't broke don't break it. At 15-3 there shouldn't be a need to tinker with the rotations.

True, the Spurs are off to one of their best starts in franchise history. It's hard to make the argument that a change HAS to be made...

BUT, why would you not want the Spurs to make a change that could put the best team on the floor?

Is giving Barry the start or more minutes to Udoka the answer(s)? I'm not sure, but unless either is given the opportunity those questions will remain unanswered.

WTF?

Seriously, I know Finley is sucking ass right now. But those 3 losses weren't due to Finley's play or lack there of.

Tough to see how Finley contributed POSITIVELY in those losses....

3-8, 0-6, & 3-11

[THE SIXTH MAN]

A "pretty decent job" doesn't make up for how horrible he has been on the offensive side of the ball.

Bowen could get away with that excuse because he does better than a "pretty decent job" on defense and that's his role.

Unfortunately, Finley's primary role is not to be a lockdown defender, but instead to knock down shots...both wide open or contested. And in his primary role he's been downright awful.

BTW, there's this other guy who is said to be a pretty good defender....his name is Ime Udoka. If he were given an opportunity to hit those wide open jumpshots, maybe he might be the better option...

But we'll never know if no changes are made.

Well there you go. Finley is a role player. If he was options 1,2,and or 3 then we'd be in a world of trouble. But fact is he's not. We have enough fire power to get us W's and we don't rely on Fin to carry the offensive load either. As is the case with Bowen there are no stats that I can throw out there to prove his worth on defense. But Spurs defense is based on rotations and help. Pretty complex defensive schemes mind you. And as much as Ime has the tools, pop wont play him if he can't get the rotations right. Finley on the other hand knows these schemes.

[whottt]

So you're on record as saying Barry won't ever start if Finley is availabe then?

You're also on record as saying the Spurs staff won't do anything to mix it up with regards to Finley?

We'll see....

And regardless of what they WILL do, this was a thought on what they SHOULD do. Finley is in a BAD slump, Barry is playing well, and Udoka is just sitting there waiting for more than garbage minutes to prove he can play.

The Spurs SHOULD consider reducing Finley's role and minutes...that's my point.

Well the main reason they wouldn't reduce his minutes right now is because there offense isn't hurting, in fact it's looking to be one of the best offensive seasons of the Duncan era...Pop won't usually sacrifice defense for offense when the offense sucks...he's really not going to want to do it when the offense doesn't suck.


Additionally...Finley sucked all of last season and eventually was beaten out of the rotation by Barry more or less...but the second he picked up he was back in the rotation ahead of Barry...Finley's not sucking as badly this season as he did last season, so I think Pop is going to give him a while to shoot his way out of it.


I really don't see the need for a change right now...if the Spurs hit a bump, then you'll see some changes.


And one final point...the Spurs bench is why they are kicking everyone's butt right now...if they don't have the best bench(higthest scoring) in the league...they are close to it...they are literally rolling the second units of teams...you move Barry and you move arguably the second best bench player after Manu...add in the fact that the reason the bench is so dominant is because of the ball movement, and Barry is excellent at ballmovement...

It just seems you be hurting the bench and the defense more than you'd be helping the offense or the starting rotation....

I just don't see what you are hoping to gain by making changes. The Spurs offense is kicking butt....

[AFBlue]

i say we trade him seriously....

he got what he wanted, now time to moved on..

The way he's shooting right now, I don't think you could pay someone to take him...

And besides, I'm not saying that Finley is "done". I'm just saying I think something needs to be done external to his self-motivation in order to get him back on track.

I still think Finley has value for this ballclub, but he doesn't have it while he's playing this poorly....and there are others that could step up in his place if given the opportunity.

It is an interesting point you bring up about Fin getting his ring though....

Something tells me there is a mutual seperation at the end of this year.

[AFBlue]

Well there you go. Finley is a role player. If he was options 1,2,and or 3 then we'd be in a world of trouble. But fact is he's not. We have enough fire power to get us W's and we don't rely on Fin to carry the offensive load either. As is the case with Bowen there are no stats that I can throw out there to prove his worth on defense. But Spurs defense is based on rotations and help. Pretty complex defensive schemes mind you. And as much as Ime has the tools, pop wont play him if he can't get the rotations right. Finley on the other hand knows these schemes.

That argument sort of works against you....

As you pointed out, Finley is a role player.

Role players, by definition, are susceptible to "swap out" in case there are matchup issues or in case one of them is not playing very well.

And last time I checked, the big 3 don't account for 100% of the point total each game. It takes those role players to fill out the rest of the stat sheet and contribute, even if only in a minor way.

If Barry doesn't kill you on defense and/or Udoka can shoot better than 30% from the field, I'd say you'd be nuts to just maintain the status quo.

[AFBlue]

Well the main reason they wouldn't reduce his minutes right now is because there offense isn't hurting, in fact it's looking to be one of the best offensive seasons of the Duncan era...Pop won't usually sacrifice defense for offense when the offense sucks...he's really not going to want to do it when the offense doesn't suck.

I think what you're getting at is that Finley's lack of offense hasn't hurt the Spurs overall in that category thus far....but eventually the black hole that is his offense will catch up to the Spurs.

Once the Spurs experience a close loss in which Finley does diddly with a good 10 possessions, I think you might re-think your stance.

Additionally...Finley sucked all of last season and eventually was beaten out of the rotation by Barry more or less...but the second he picked up he was back in the rotation ahead of Barry...Finley's not sucking as badly this season as he did last season, so I think Pop is going to give him a while to shoot his way out of it.

Interesting....

You say that Finley lost his job/minutes to another player and then all of the sudden became effective? What a coincidence!

Perhaps the compe ion and the pressure of earning minutes actually helped Finley get back on track.

And one final point...the Spurs bench is why they are kicking everyone's butt right now...if they don't have the best bench(higthest scoring) in the league...they are close to it...they are literally rolling the second units of teams...you move Barry and you move arguably the second best bench player after Manu...add in the fact that the reason the bench is so dominant is because of the ball movement, and Barry is excellent at ballmovement...

It just seems you be hurting the bench and the defense more than you'd be helping the offense or the starting rotation....

Isn't the point to put the best overall team on the court? I don't care if the most points or effective minutes come from starters or bench players...I care that the Spurs give minutes to the players that will give them the best chance to win night in and night out.

As of right now, it's my opinion that Finley gives this team less of a chance to win than Barry with more minutes/increased role and potentially Udoka.

That may mean the Spurs beat an opponent by 15 instead of 8, but it could also mean that the Spurs beat an opponent by 3 instead of losing by 1. Again, we won't know until the Spurs make a move.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

That argument sort of works against you....

As you pointed out, Finley is a role player.

Role players, by definition, are susceptible to "swap out" in case there are matchup issues or in case one of them is not playing very well.

And last time I checked, the big 3 don't account for 100% of the point total each game. It takes those role players to fill out the rest of the stat sheet and contribute, even if only in a minor way.

If Barry doesn't kill you on defense and/or Udoka can shoot better than 30% from the field, I'd say you'd be nuts to just maintain the status quo.

Since when have the Spurs ever needed a high octane offense to win games? As is the offense is kicking ass right now. Theres nothing wrong with the offense...at all. What pop and company are concerned with right now is defense. You threw Fin's stats for the last 3 losses up. But the stat you should have posted was opponents field goal %. Like I said earlier, in pops mind defense > offense.

[whottt]

And it's my opinion that your suggestion would do more harm than good at this particular moment in time. Our bench is a huge factor in our offensive surge and prstine W-L record...and you want to mess with that.


And no...Finley didn't start playing better after losing his spot in the rotation. Indeed, he sucked worse...it was getting guaranteed PT due to an injury that snapped him out of it.


Honestly...Finley's about done with his NBA career...at the same time, he's still a better defender than Barry...and our offense is doing fine.

And when our offense struggles and we lose a game because of it...Pop is not going to say, we need better offense, he's going to say, we need better defense.

[BeerIsGood!]

I know this will probably show up in the "game thoughts" thread, but it is a pattern that has stretched over multiple games.

For whatever reason, Finley has lost complete confidence in his shot from everywhere on the court. And that's not good, when your best (some would say "only") attribute is shooting.

Barry, conversely, has been on fire from behind the arc and in general. He is familiar with the offense and while he's still not a great defender, he has improved in that regard.

So it bares the question...should the Spurs start Barry and make Finley battle for backup G/F minutes with Udoka?

IMO, I think it's time for just that....

Keep Finley starting, but his extra minutes don't all need to go to Barry. Barry is 35 and doesn't need the wear and tear. Udoka is the guy who needs to step up to take those minutes.

[AFBlue]

And it's my opinion that your suggestion would do more harm than good at this particular moment in time.

Obviously then, we'll just agree to disagree.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

for the record I'm not a Finley homer or anything like that. But at this point in time I do believe there are bigger fish to fry then Finley's offensive production. But if he does prove to be a liability on both ends of the floor, then I'm all for yanking him from the line up and rotations all together.

Ime is still a little too green when it comes to the knowing the ins and outs of the Spurs system. And Barry right now has been a huge spark off the bench with Manu.

[BonnerDynasty]

Starting Five:

Duncan
Bonner
Bowen
Barry
Parker

Killer B's.

[Demo Dick Marcinko]

FWIW:

Finley's stats:

Min FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF TOT AST PTS
07-08 24.5 .338 .342 .818 0.2 2.6 2.8 1.6 8.1
06-08 22.2 .412 .364 .918 0.4 2.3 2.7 1.3 9.0

I know it's not a complete picture, more along the lines of a snap shot of his offensive production which this year has gotten progressively moreso offensive. I'm not sure how to quantify his defensive impact, but it's clear to see that on the offensive end his lack of a viable game is hurting us. The above stats don't even include tonight's pitiful production. Part of me is still likes and admires Michael Finely and he has meant alot to the organization. I don't think we ought to take him out of the starters role, but I definitely think that Barry and Udoka should be getting the lions share of his minutes. Cut him down to maybe 12-15 minutes a game until he regains what ever mojo it is that he has lost. Just a thought, don't slam me.

[ChumpDumper]

it's clear to see that on the offensive end his lack of a viable game is hurting us.

How badly is it hurting us? Would we be 18-0 if Finley wasn't starting?

[TDMVPDPOY]

finley collects 2 paychecks, and his playin like crap theres no excuse for that

and his no mango

[AFBlue]

How badly is it hurting us? Would we be 18-0 if Finley wasn't starting?

Obviously you can't speculate that playing Barry or Udoka for more minutes in those losses would've changed the outcome because they may or may not have had the "touches" that Finley got and/or played the defense Finley did....

BUT, you can reasonably assume that any other bench player would've had a more positive impact on the offensive end than Finley, simply by looking at the FG%.

Based on FG%, Finley is this team's worst offensive option, yet he starts and averages the fourth-most FGs on the team.

Bottom Line: While you can't be certain the outcome would change, you can make a statistical case that the offense would've scored more points in those losses.

[SouthernFried]

I don't understand why people think Finley is playing "decent" D. I've never really seen him play decent D.

Barry is no Defensive stopper (except on transition D where he's broken up a few fast breaks). But, he has those long arms he likes to use to swipe from behind and has gotten himself a few steals. He also seems more active than Finley on D. Finley is one of the easier guys in the NBA to get around and shoot over. Very slow reaction and foot speed on the defensive end.

When he's hot on the offensive end, you can sorta live with it. Only real pure jump shooter the Spurs have. And I like Finley...good guy, and good chemistry with the team.

Still...

[TMTTRIO]

Since Tim is going to be out maybe it's about time to start Manu and have both offensive threats out there too start. Also we've been starting lately without any energy so we're going to start needing some from the very start. That's why Manu's been coming in sooner and sooner lately. Brent's doing so well he can continue to bring the energy and scoring off the bench. Just go ahead and give him more of Finley's minutes.

[Demo Dick Marcinko]

How badly is it hurting us? Would we be 18-0 if Finley wasn't starting?

Come on Chump that's just plain dumb and you know it, unless I missed the sarcasm smiley. But since you brought that up Fin is shooting 24% in the games we lost. Those are Chris Dudley numbers. Even so we're still 15-3. However I think that you'll agree that with Duncan possibly less then 100% and with a tough Dec schedule coming up we're going need to be firing on all cylinders, everyone. 2 for 10 on 20% FG% is going to hurt us against a good opponent. Let's hope he does better against _allas. Reread my post, I'm not saying bench Fin or even take him out of his starters role, what I'm saying is give more of his minutes to Barry and Udoka until Fin regains some of his color and a bit of a pulse.

[nfg3]

Pop will probably do nothing for awhile becasuse he usually lets his players shoot their way out of slumps. So we'll see this for some time. How long I don't know but it will continue at least through this year and midway Jan IMO.

As for starting Manu and Barry I am a little reluctant at this point. Both are in a groove coming off the bench and if they now start who is going to replace the energy that they bring? I'd like to see Ime with more time but he's got to earn it and so far hasn't - you know the 1st year blues/learning curve.

I'd also like to see Elson get more touches at the 15 - 18 ft range. I'd like to see him hitting that shot with consistency and spreading the floor by doing so.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

If it ain't broke....





Keep Barry coming off the bench. Our bench play is what has us at 14-3.

[AFBlue]

If it ain't broke....





Keep Barry coming off the bench. Our bench play is what has us at 14-3.

I don't understand the "If it ain't broke" logic.

If a team is doing well but has an opportunity to tinker and make themselves better...why wouldn't they?

The Patriots had a perennial le-contender, but they went out and got Randy Moss and an entirely new offense. They have been the best NFL franchise since 2000....and they still made changes to get better.

And what I'm suggesting isn't anywhere NEAR that level of change. I'm simply suggesting that the Spurs remove a struggling player from the rotation and replace his role/minutes with players that are/can perform better at this time.

I don't understand the hesitation because of the "bench" squad either. Tim, Tony, Manu, and Bruce are winning these games...not the bench. They're getting help from game to game from a couple components of the bench, but the only one to really step up consistently has been Barry...so why not give him more burn?

Another point....aren't we at a point in the season when changes should be made and rotations should be experimented with?

If the Spurs were going to make a move and test out their roster, it should be now, when the Spurs have time to recover if the experiment fails.

[ChumpDumper]

Come on Chump that's just plain dumb and you know it

It's not dumb. Everyone says we will be so much better if we get rid of Finley.

Bottom line it -- the Spurs have been on a pace to win 68 games with the current lineup. How would they do with Barry or Udoka getting those minutes? 75? 82?

[wildbill2u]

Is Udoka an energy player? Even though he's not as familiar with the system, could he replace Barry off the bench since Barry is admittedly no defensive whiz and let Barry start in place of Finley.

This may be the perfect time, early in the season with some meaningless games on tap, for Pop to replace Finley and do some tinkering.