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  1. #26
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    The US is about where it should be in terms of separating religion from public policy... I think that's why the most heated debates revolve around relatively meaningless (and silly) issues like the Pledge or displays of the Ten Commandments.

    About the only thing I would change is the government's involvement with marriage. And I think government officials should be careful about citing their religion as an influence on their political objectives - as a matter of principle, but not law.

    I do worry as the national debate over issues like these grows more intense, that the two sides will become more extreme and use whatever political leverage they have to push national policy to one of those extremes. Right now, a lot of Christians are "fightin' mad" about certain issues, and if power swings back to the Left at any point, it's likely that secular culture will fight back with a vengeance.

  2. #27
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
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    Our democracy guarantees that the majority cannot obliterate the cons utional rights of the minority. "Cons utional rights" does not cover every little policy preference of the minority. Both sides, when they lose elections, like to pretend that all of their policy preferences are protected cons utional rights.

    * * * *

    Most sectarian "oppression" here goes about as far as things like stem cell policy, or restrictions on obscene material, or public expressions of faith. Pretty much all of it is public policy, involving where the government allocates money, or striking a balance between personal liberty and the public good (which secularists do too), little of which involves cons utional rights, all of which can be changed at any point in the future if voters decide they want something different. It's just part of a free country.

    * * * *

    In theocratic countries, religion invades into the kind of clothes you can wear, and the kind of house you can live in, and how you can raise your children, and what you can say in public, and what kind of education you can get, and the kind of job you can hold, and where and how you can come and ago, and punishes you if you don't follow religion in a way they say you can, punishes you if you read something or look at something they say you are not supposed to, and officially discriminates against people based upon their faith or lack thereof.
    Or who you can marry (generally viewed as a cons utional right -- Zablocki v. Redhail; Loving v. Viriginia). Or what medical procedures are available to you (cons utionally protected right to life or liberty, whichever you choose -- Griswold v. Connecticut; Roe v. Wade; Cruzan v. Missouri). Or whether your children should be tought majoritarian/sectarian norms, beliefs, and values in public schools. (invading a minority cons utional right to free exercise -- Engel v. Vitale; Lee v. Weisman; Barnette v. West Virigina Board of Education). Those are, indeed, curious omissions from your recitation.

    These are not merely public policy choices. The decisions made by the government to specifically address these issues -- to exalt the will of a sectarian majority over the rights of the political/social minority -- go to the heart of the Cons utional guarantees embodied in the Bill of Rights and addresses, in particular relief, the precise reason for the Establishment Clause. No one is stupid enough to propose a bill calling for the establishment of a particular orthodox religion in this country; but many are inclined to propose legislation to rollback the rights of the minority in a subtle effort to ensure that a particular religious viewpoint endorses any initiative, regardless of its relative importance. Thus, if the former is impermissible, the latter necessarily is too. It is unprincipled to say that the latter is simply a matter of electoral spoils; cons utional rights ought never be subject to the outcome of a public vote.

    These are merely the tip of the iceberg, but they are the first skirmishes in a battle that has undoubtedly begun. The ultimate result of that battle will determine if the Establishment Clause is a promise of religious liberty to all in every public setting or a s that simply prohibits the establishment of an orthodoxy. Precedent certainly suggests that the Establishment Clause accomplishes more than a prohibition against a state church.
    Last edited by FromWayDowntown; 01-13-2005 at 02:52 PM.

  3. #28
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    Or who you can marry (generally viewed as a cons utional right -- Zablocki v. Redhail; Loving v. Viriginia). Or what medical procedures are available to you (cons utionally protected right to life or liberty, whichever you choose -- Griswold v. Connecticut; Roe v. Wade; Cruzan v. Missouri). Or whether your children should be tought majoritarian/sectarian norms, beliefs, and values in public schools. (invading a minority cons utional right to free exercise -- Engel v. Vitale; Lee v. Weisman; Barnette v. West Virigina Board of Education). Those are, indeed, curious omissions from your recitation.
    The majority view is in favor of allowing recognition of relationships in order that people have equal access to property, visitation, and inheritance rights.

    What the majority rejects is the official endorsement of the secular liberal definition of marriage over the traditional definitions.

    The Cons ution guarantees the protection of minority rights, not the exaltation of minority worldviews over all others. But since the liberal activists insisted upon achieving the latter, they so far have failed to achieve the former.

    Some liberals argue that having separate arrangements is a form of segregation. But there aren't going to be separate offices for getting licenses, or separate tax forms, or separate judges for carrying out ceremonies, or any separate ins utions whatsoever. There will be a different box that gets checked, and the civil arrangement will have a different name. If that is "separate but equal," then so is gender.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    The majority opinion on abortion is to keep it legal in most cases. As even the text of Roe v. Wade admits, there is a balancing act between the rights of the mother to make her own medical decisions and the responsibility of the state to protect life, even in this case, prenatal life. This goes to what I mentioned earlier about the balance between personal freedoms and the public good, with this case having uncertainty about what the public good actually is. If an activist has religious motivations for placing greater weight behind protecting prenatal life, that does not make his position invalid nor an uncons utional imposition of sectarian norms.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Mandatory, aloud, administration-led public school prayer is illegal. Only 22% of the population wants it to be legal. That is hardly a majority. Some schools frequently violate the Bill of Rights by prohibiting the free exercise of religion by students -- for example, disallowing individual prayers in non-disruptive cir stances, disallowing religiously-themed clothing or accessories, confiscating religious texts, denying religious assembly on school grounds, or discriminating against student-led religious organizations.

    I agree with the Court in each instance of school prayer cases, and also in the instance of Santa Fe v. Doe.

    But many are inclined to propose legislation to rollback the rights of the minority in a subtle effort to ensure that a particular religious viewpoint endorses any initiative, regardless of its relative importance. Thus, if the former is impermissible, the latter necessarily is too.
    There is absolutely nothing wrong with having one's religious viewpoint inform his political beliefs, none at all. Political beliefs stem from people's values, and for the devoutly religious their values stem from their faith. The penumbra of minority rights under the Establishment Clause does not extend so far as to proscribe any religious influence in politics whatsoever, as you appear to be suggesting. I submit that political activism is part of the exercise of religion for many, so that your idea violates the Free Exercise clause.

    I agree with you only in those cases where activists are making a surrep ious attempt to encourage a state endorsement of religion in some form.

    It is unprincipled to say that the latter is simply a matter of electoral spoils; cons utional rights ought never be subject to the outcome of a public vote.
    The Establishment Clause does not imply any right to protection from electoral decisions or public policies for which some people's motivation for support might have been primarily religious, so long as those decisions or policies do not violate any other rights.

    These are merely the tip of the iceberg, but they are the first skirmishes in a battle that has undoubtedly begun. The ultimate result of that battle will determine if the Establishment Clause is a promise of religious liberty to all in every public setting or a s that simply prohibits the establishment of an orthodoxy.
    If "religious liberty" means every person is free to speak his conscience about faith or lack thereof, as long as it does not coerce others to listen or participate, and that each person is free to participate in his own government per their own values and beliefs, be they religious or not, then I support that. If it means that the religious must be coerced into silence and into political disenfranchisement in favor of the secular, then I oppose it.

  4. #29
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    This is a case for the Supreme Court, no?

  5. #30
    Roll The Dice Hook Dem's Avatar
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    "If "religious liberty" means every person is free to speak his conscience about faith or lack thereof, as long as it does not coerce others to listen or participate, and that each person is free to participate in his own government per their own values and beliefs, be they religious or not, then I support that. If it means that the religious must be coerced into silence and into political disenfranchisement in favor of the secular, then I oppose it." ...................................VERY WELL SAID!

  6. #31
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
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    This is a case for the Supreme Court, no?
    That's a great point, Joe. The Court, in Lemon v. Kurtzman and Lynch v. Donnelly (O'Connor, J., concurring), has already decided that governmental endorsement of particular religious viewpoints or of religion over non-religion violates the Establishment Clause. In a similar line of cases, the Court has also decided in Lee v. Weisman, Board of Education of Westside Community Schools v. Mergens, and Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe, that government cannot, even subtly, coerce adherence to particular religious viewpoints.

    It seems to me that what the right really wants is a reformulation of Establishment Clause jurisprudence, because without such a reformulation, much of their argument is obliterated.

    The majority view is in favor of allowing recognition of relationships in order that people have equal access to property, visitation, and inheritance rights.

    What the majority rejects is the official endorsement of the secular liberal definition of marriage over the traditional definitions.
    I'd be curious about some statistics to back up those statements. My recollection from the recently concluded election and the polling that took place within that time was that a large majority disfavored any public recognition of "non-traditional" relationships. In light of the fact that the Court has on several occasions defined marriage to be a right of cons utional magnitude (and, perhaps even a fundamental right (Zablocki)) that the use of religious antipathy as a basis for denying equal recognition of such relationships treads perilously close to governmental endorsement of a particular religious viewpoint.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with having one's religious viewpoint inform his political beliefs, none at all. Political beliefs stem from people's values, and for the devoutly religious their values stem from their faith. The penumbra of minority rights under the Establishment Clause does not extend so far as to proscribe any religious influence in politics whatsoever, as you appear to be suggesting. I submit that political activism is part of the exercise of religion for many, so that your idea violates the Free Exercise clause.
    I don't argue that there's any prohibition (be it expressed or penumbral) against an elected official defining himself or herself (or his or her political philosophy) in a manner that tracks a particular religious viewpoint. I don't think anyone truly would suggest that such a cir stance would be desireable, and certainly, such a requirement would be altogether unenforceable. Nor do I think the exercise of the franchise should require the setting aside of a religious perspective, if that is what one chooses. Indeed, if one chooses to exercise his faith by becoming politically active, that is fine. It's at the point when he begins to legislate his morality -- to use the machinery of government to compel adherence to his particular religious viewpoint -- that I see Cons utional problems that, in my estimation, the Framers intended to curtail by drafting the Establishment Clause. I realize that this can be a fine line distinction, but I think in certain cir stances (like prayers in public schools, like abortion, like same-sex marriage, like certain faith-based initiatives), the line is rather bright and the right is beginning to encroach upon it.

    If "religious liberty" means every person is free to speak his conscience about faith or lack thereof, as long as it does not coerce others to listen or participate, and that each person is free to participate in his own government per their own values and beliefs, be they religious or not, then I support that. If it means that the religious must be coerced into silence and into political disenfranchisement in favor of the secular, then I oppose it.
    I don't necessarily disagree with that statement; I think its absolutely true as to private citizens and partially true as to those who choose to hold governmental office. Certainly, I don't think that the fact of religiosity should ever deprive one of a voice in government. That is, indeed, an hetical to the individual freedom protected by the Free Exercise Clause. But, I do think -- and I believe the Court's Establishment Clause jurisprudence supports my position -- that there is a point in governmental service where the protection of free exercise yields to the public interests served by the Establishment Clause. The assumption of public office does bring with it the limited concession of certain freedoms and rights. Its true in, for example, the defamation context. If there is to be any meaning at all to the Establishment Clause, that limited abridgment of unmitigated free exercise is necessary, too. When the government officially begins endorsing particular religious viewpoints through its policy initiatives, and when the government uses its machinery in a way that compels non-adherents or secularists or any other "religious minority" (for lack of a better term) to adhere to the tenets of a particular religious viewpoint, it's clear to me (and it seems to me that it is clear to the Court) that the prohibition of the Establishment Clause must come into play.

    I still think Justice Jackson (not incidentally, the mentor to Chief Justice Rehnquist) said it best in Barnette:

    "If there is any fixed star in our cons utional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any cir stances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us."

  7. #32
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    If secularism was the majority view
    What is a secularist view?

    Here are the acceptable definitions of the word secular:

    1. Worldly rather than spiritual.
    2. Not specifically relating to religion or to a religious body: secular music.
    3. Relating to or advocating secularism.
    4. Not bound by monastic restrictions, especially not belonging to a religious order. Used of the clergy.
    5. Occurring or observed once in an age or century.
    6. Lasting from century to century.

    It seems like people want to attach the stigma of Atheism to the word secular, which is simply not correct.

    If by "view of secularism" you are referring to the acceptable definitions of the word, then I argue that it is the majority view of just about everything.

  8. #33
    Who is this guy, again? travis2's Avatar
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    The majority opinion on abortion is to keep it legal in most cases. As even the text of Roe v. Wade admits, there is a balancing act between the rights of the mother to make her own medical decisions and the responsibility of the state to protect life, even in this case, prenatal life. This goes to what I mentioned earlier about the balance between personal freedoms and the public good, with this case having uncertainty about what the public good actually is. If an activist has religious motivations for placing greater weight behind protecting prenatal life, that does not make his position invalid nor an uncons utional imposition of sectarian norms.
    I'd like to see your stats on this statement.

    Define "most cases".

    The problem with the abortion debate is that the terms used are too broadly applied...and in many cases, purposely so. For example, in the cases of rape, incest, or life of the mother, I would agree that most people have no problem with maintaining legal options for abortion. If the debate swings to "abortion any time up to the time of birth", the majority do not favor such options.

    However, the question is often posed as "Do you oppose abortion in all cases?" or other vague wording.
    Last edited by travis2; 01-14-2005 at 10:06 AM.

  9. #34
    Roll The Dice Hook Dem's Avatar
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    "It seems like people want to attach the stigma of Atheism to the word secular, which is simply not correct." ...................And it seems like people want to attach the stigma of "religous zealot" to all Conservatives which is simply not correct.

  10. #35
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    You are right, Hook.

  11. #36
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    I concur. Not all liberals are "un-religious, un-patriotic" bas s.

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