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  1. #26
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    The U.S. obviously has no interest in adreesing the issue of the WHY are they out to get us. Why do they hate us so? So the alternative is spending trillions and trillions of dollars and using our military might to keep them in check. If we continue to ignore their issues with us and get to the root of their hatred then this vicious circle will just keep going and going long past the time we are all dead and gone.
    Well, we certainly could get to the root of the hatred if we would help them return Muslim rule to the whole of Palestine. 60 years now the dhimmis have been in charge, with this illusion perpetrated by the Americans that the Zionist state is more prosperous than the Muslims, which of course cannot be because Islam is the best way and the one true faith.

    If we accede to their righteous demands on this one point, then they will be satisfied. Well, except for Al-Andalus. That belongs to them too.

  2. #27
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    I never said anything about the pre-emptive takedown of a fascist dictator, who supposedly threatened the safety of the United States. I agree with you that it was totally unrelated to the war on al-Queda and radical Islamism.

    Iraq was not and is not about terrorism.

    And to suggest that we "haven't seen" terrorism at work, how do you explain 9/11? That was terrorism front-and-center. Most of us may not have been near those towers or known someone who died, but it was an affirmation that we could be attacked on our soil....that exposed a vulnerability that many of us didn't think we had.
    Fair statements. I will return the courtesy. Sorry for being an ass.

    IMO, 9/11 exposed a vulnerability we will ALWAYS have. Any country in the world that lives with any degree of freedom will ALWAYS be vulnerable.

    The only way to truly guarantee our safety is to give up "some" freedoms.

    So far, we havent had to do that (yet). Sure, theres the Patriot Act, the DHS, new security in air travel, but ultimately, Im not less free than before.

    But what happens when (inevitably) the radicals attack again?

    Its going to happen. It will absolutely happen again.

    Are we going to start another war? Start a new Federal agency? Give more power to existing Federal agencies? Limit out of country travel? Limited movement within the States?

    Where does it end?!

    Terrorism can not be eradicated. Let me re-state that....

    Terrorism can not be eradicated by any palpable means.

    Iraq is doing nothing for the cause. Some try to pass it off as "we're fighting them there, so we dont have to here". Thats called a line of Bull .

    Last time I checked, I wasnt being vigilant outside my house with my rifle looking for terrorists. Nor were the police, nor was the military, nor was anyone (Intelligence agencies were/are).

    My point is, our government does not have clean hands. We trifle in world matters to our advantage. Am I sorry? no! them.

    But there is a byproduct of meddling in other countries, financially/militarily supporting an entire region's sworn enemy (Islam vs Israel), etc etc.

    These are those drawbacks, and the only thing that could eradicate terrorism is to eradicate the entire middle east of all life that uses lungs to oxygenate their blood.

    Otherwise, youre just poking your caged enemy with a stick.

    My opinion anyway.

    As a rough comparison....

    We had been lightly engaged in WWII for some time before Dec 7, 1941, but it was that day "that lived in infamy" and pushed us fully into the conflict. Similarly, we had been dealing with terrorism and radical Islamist groups like al-Queda with minimal effort and success, but when those towers fell, it pushed us into a full-scale offensive.
    You said "rough comparison". I'd call it "analogy with no relation". But thats me.

    WW2 and the War on Terror are not even remotely similar. Not in scale, not in capability and certainly not in threat.

    Hitler/Axis powers could have/would have taken over the world. They had the means, the logistics and the initiative to do it.

    Islamic terrorism isnt bent on world domination. Even if it were, they dont have the means, the logistics or the initiative.

    They want the West to "Go away" from their lands. They want the Persian empire in its totality to live under Shira Law and use the Quaran as its Cons ution. They want Jerusalem back. They want Israel and its people dead.

    They dont want to take and hold New York. They couldnt even if they wanted to.

    So, WW2 and the WoT couldnt be more dissimilar.

    I equate the War on Terror to the War on Drugs more than I do any other war.

    Both have a moving target for an objective.
    Both targets are vague and ever-changing in their definition.
    Both require an unorthodox approach to the battlefield.

    Put it this way...

    The US is not as serious about Terrorism as you are lead to believe. Again, the hijackers were Saudi. You think the US is going to attack Saudi Arabia? Or even threaten sanctions? These are the same people who demand there be no women on the tarmac when their plane lands on US soil.

    They dont respect us, they dont even fear us. We buy something to the tune of 80% of SA's total oil production. Should the US jeopardize that influx by actually combatting the Saudi's on terrorism? We already have the answer....on 9/11, Saudi royalty was here in America, their flight was the only flight allowed out of America that day.

    Do you see where the US' interests actually lie? Not in its people, or our security, but with foreign trade interest.

    So youre asking me to stomach a government that puts its foreign relations above the interests of its own people, and in the same breath, asking me to trust that same government in its decisons in a global war they have no real intention of winning?

    No ing way.

    So we got off track....yes that was a mistake. But, that doesn't change the fact that al-Queda and radical Islamist terror tactics still exist and need to be dealt with strongly.
    You already know where those people on 9/11 came from. Yet, we still hang out with Saudi's in the foreign arena. The Saudi's have done nothing to root out their internal problems of radical Islam and its just a matter of time before one their own do it again.

    What do you think the US' response will be this time? Different? I sincerely doubt it.

    The American government has no interest in winning a War on Terrorism. Their only interest is the ability to sustain it....at all costs.

    Dont be surprised when the WoT starts to break this country financially by direct (military support overseas, loss of life, etc) and indirect (the DHS, homeland monitoring, intelligence agencies) expense that the People will tire of its cost.

    Only to be hit again by terrorists, rejustifying the financial collapse. You call it vigilance, I call it ignorance.

    You want to win this war? Good, because your government doesnt. Yet you trust them with your security. That sir, is beyond my comprehension.

  3. #28
    Veteran AFBlue's Avatar
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    DR,

    Very impressive and LONG post. In fact, you've willed me into submission because I have neither the time nor the energy to respond to that....right now.

    You mentioned many things that I agree with, and for the other things...I think we'll just agree to disagree.

    BTW, I'm glad we can have a civil disagreement and it not turn into a profanity-laced tirade with personal attacks....it's refreshing.

  4. #29
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    back to mccain for a moment.....has everyone forgotten the john mccain that ran in 2000?

    when bush and rove applied a little pressure, mccain folded like origami.

    is this the guy that can handle the pressure of the world?

    no way.

  5. #30
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    I concur. I don't see why "dimm-o-crat" or some other personal attack needs to be part of every post.
    Agreeing to disagree is what it is all about. No need to "compromise" your position to make a point. I know many don't agree on my political views and that is fine. I don't think any two are ever the same. Even amongst those in our own party.
    That is why not every republican votes for the same republican nominee or democrat votes for the same nominee.
    Even amongst our own parties there is disagreement.

  6. #31
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    back to mccain for a moment.....has everyone forgotten the john mccain that ran in 2000?

    when bush and rove applied a little pressure, mccain folded like origami.

    is this the guy that can handle the pressure of the world?

    no way.
    As a POW I'm sure McCain was under more pressure than any of us will ever be.

  7. #32
    Displaced 101A's Avatar
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    Well, we certainly could get to the root of the hatred if we would help them return Muslim rule to the whole of Palestine. 60 years now the dhimmis have been in charge, with this illusion perpetrated by the Americans that the Zionist state is more prosperous than the Muslims, which of course cannot be because Islam is the best way and the one true faith.

    If we accede to their righteous demands on this one point, then they will be satisfied. Well, except for Al-Andalus. That belongs to them too.
    In the middle of the other stuff, this was posted as a response to WHY we don't find out WHY the radical Muslims want to kill us.

    Well said.

    I would also add, that if we ceded Israel, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be happy with that. They would find it's just a desert hole like every place else they live.

  8. #33
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    As a POW I'm sure McCain was under more pressure than any of us will ever be.
    agreed. so why was he so weak in 2000?

  9. #34
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    agreed. so why was he so weak in 2000?
    I don't really think he was so weak as the Rove machine was too strong.

  10. #35
    Displaced 101A's Avatar
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    Islamic terrorism isnt bent on world domination. Even if it were, they dont have the means, the logistics or the initiative.
    Yes it is. It is there destiny as stated in the Koran. Too many links to post.

    Regarding the means; nuclear/atomic weapons make it much more likely for a few people to do vast damage to an enemy. If those 4 planes had been 4 atomic bombs in the right places - , you do the math.

  11. #36
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    I don't really think he was so weak as the Rove machine was too strong.
    You give Rove too much credit.

  12. #37
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    I don't really think he was so weak as the Rove machine was too strong.
    and therein lies the problem. please don't misunderstand what concerns me. i think mccain is a good, proud, and worthy man. i admire him. but the risk is too great. this country needs a makeover in the worst possible way. he would be proned to biting off way more than he can chew.

  13. #38
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Yes it is. It is there destiny as stated in the Koran. Too many links to post.

    Regarding the means; nuclear/atomic weapons make it much more likely for a few people to do vast damage to an enemy. If those 4 planes had been 4 atomic bombs in the right places - , you do the math.
    Fair. My point is, they dont have the MEANS to dominate the world (and never will, btw). So I cede that point.

  14. #39
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Really, Guam's government/religion might be bent on world domination, but who the cares?

    They couldnt even if they wanted to. Same with radical Muslims.

  15. #40
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    You give Rove too much credit.
    I give credit where credit is due.

  16. #41
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Also, lets play fantasy-world for a moment and say those planes were nukes.

    You think we'd be in Iraq right now? Think terrorism would be a problem right now?

    I dont. The entire middle east would be a sheet of glass, and they know it.

  17. #42
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    In Galileo's reality, McCain actually did call for 100 years of total war in Iraq. Immediately thereafter, he announced that he is 100% Jewish, and then drank a golden goblet full of Iraqi childrens' blood. Also, McCain can shoot lightning out of his fingers.
    a tad bit too much extra stout for me lad?

  18. #43
    Displaced 101A's Avatar
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    Also, lets play fantasy-world for a moment and say those planes were nukes.

    You think we'd be in Iraq right now? Think terrorism would be a problem right now?

    I dont. The entire middle east would be a sheet of glass, and they know it.
    Point ceded.

    Wait, nevermind.

    Oil.

  19. #44
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    Herein lies the problem. One side says no one in the ME can
    change anything. Others claim they can.

    But let us look at the facts. The terrorist in the ME have changed
    things. And those that have immigrated to other countries have
    changed many things in those countries. Including our own
    USA.

    Folks, times are a changing, right, wrong or indifferent, they are
    changing. Look around and smell the roses.

    Remember something. Two little words. Political Correctness.
    Political correctness is deadly.

  20. #45
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Point ceded.

    Wait, nevermind.

    Oil.
    I dont think oil that is underground would get contaminated from multiple warheads detonated at about 2000' above sea level.

    But I dont pretend to know. My point is, the oil will still be there long after every living organism was wiped from the globe.

    And it could be harvested...look at Chernobyl.

  21. #46
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    I concur.

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