I'm calling it now..

[101A]

Did anyone ever hear of Barrack Hussein Obama six months ago?

This guy thought he did:

[Supergirl]

People who think McCain is moderate don't really pay attention. He may speak out against his own party sometimes, and actually have an intelligent opinion, but the bottom line is, look at his record. He votes with the Republican party line something like 90% of the time. He votes socially conservative, and continues to support this disaster of a war and all of Bush's policies. Bush is supporting him today. You think that's a coincidence?

On the other hand, the differences between Clinton and Obama are negligible. It's coming down to personality traits, experience versus hope, and sexism.

[some_user86]

I call bull .

If you were truly in the top 1%; you would be being taxed - at nearly a 40% clip; paying a higher percentage than any other American. The statement "Tax Me!" doesn't jibe with that. "I can do more", or "I didn't need the cut at the time!", I might believe, but "Tax Me" sounds like the rant of someone who has never shouldered the actual tax burden of a person in the top 1%.

McCain has always supported spending cuts to correspond to the tax cuts; that's why he didn't support them in the first place. Repealing those tax cuts now, however, on the cusp or during a recession, would be foolhardy.

Listen, research is experiencing severe stagflation right now. The prices for research equipment and materials is rising faster than the national rate of inflation, and the funding rate for research has not kept up. In fact, if you do an inflation-adjusted measure of the research funding, it has experienced a severe decline since 2003. Don't get me wrong. Our company does more than research. And we can survive moderately ok until the funding rate picks up. But its still our bread and butter. The situation is such that an increase in taxes would probably mean that research funding levels could at least match the rate of inflation so that we don't get real-value funding decreases.

It's all across the board, really, in turns of domestic programs. Nearly everything is suffering because we are spending more in Iraq then we are recovering from taxes. Lower taxes are great! But then spending needs to be cut across the board to match the loss in income. You can't cut spending here and there and expect to be able to recover a trillion dollars to cover the cost of the war. The dollar is continuously falling as we continue to borrow money from China to cover the loss of revenue. Guess what? That's inflationary pressure. Gas prices. Can't do anything about that. That's inflationary pressure. I suppose we could increase material science funding to discover new fuel types, but that needs funding!

Something's gotta give. I'm all for lower taxes. But spending has to be cut across the board. If you feel you can't cover the cost of national defense, then you have to raise them taxes.

Bush would be fired if were CEO of a company. In fact, every single member of Congress that doesn't vote to balance the budget should be fired. (Keep Ron Paul.)

[some_user86]

People who think McCain is moderate don't really pay attention. He may speak out against his own party sometimes, and actually have an intelligent opinion, but the bottom line is, look at his record. He votes with the Republican party line something like 90% of the time. He votes socially conservative, and continues to support this disaster of a war and all of Bush's policies. Bush is supporting him today. You think that's a coincidence?

On the other hand, the differences between Clinton and Obama are negligible. It's coming down to personality traits, experience versus hope, and sexism.

Don't forget racism. (looks at older Hispanic voters)

[Supergirl]

Don't forget racism. (looks at older Hispanic voters)

Fair enough. Yes. Interestingly enough, it's the only area where I think race played much of a role, whereas sexism has been an issue throughout the race. And I say this as a woman who is NOT a Clinton supporter. There are many good reasons not to vote for Clinton, but most of what I hear in the media and from people around me boils down to sexism.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Don't forget racism. (looks at older Hispanic voters)

At my caucus ysterday there were 225 people there supporting Obama. Aproximately 185 of those people were african American.

Clinton's count was 86 with ONE african american female..

There is a 2,000 lb elephant in the room boys and girls..

[some_user86]

True. A lot of the bull people say about Hilary is sexist crap.

It makes it harder to differentiate what's real criticism vs machoism.

The way I figured it, she was just playing traditional, dirty politics. Also, while she's one of an intelligent woman, I expect her to keep her campaign promises to get a second term, even if she knows it's wrong for the country. That's the clincher for me.

Plus, her healthcare plan sucks (mandates?! wtf?).

[some_user86]

At my caucus ysterday there were 225 people there supporting Obama. Aproximately 185 of those people were african American.

Clinton's count was 86 with ONE african american female..

There is a 2,000 lb elephant in the room boys and girls..

Affinity politics is to be expected.

Women will vote for a woman. Old white dudes will vote for a old white dude. Blacks will vote for a black.

What's their excuse? (Especially when the younger generation breaks from the mold.)

[Ignignokt]

There is a 2,000 lb elephant in the room boys and girls..

yeah, and right now she's eating barbacoa tacos downed with Mineral water and listening to La Invasora 107.9.

you.

[101A]

... because we are spending more in Iraq then we are recovering from taxes.

Defense spending is less than 20% of the budget; in the '60's it was 46%.

Defense is NOT the problem; En lement programs, which have grown from negligible, to over 50% of the budget, ARE!

[101A]

Affinity politics is to be expected.

Women will vote for a woman. Old white dudes will vote for a old white dude. Blacks will vote for a black.

What's their excuse? (Especially when the younger generation breaks from the mold.)

White people are split nearly 50/50 Clinton/Obama.

Not ALL races are racist - at least in this race; the people of color, it would appear are NOT color blind.

[Supergirl]

Affinity politics is to be expected.

Women will vote for a woman. Old white dudes will vote for a old white dude. Blacks will vote for a black.

What's their excuse? (Especially when the younger generation breaks from the mold.)

Actually class has been a bigger determinate in the Dem race. Educated, wealthier voters are more likely to go for Obama, while Clinton does better amongst the working class.

[some_user86]

Defense spending is less than 20% of the budget; in the '60's it was 46%.

Defense is NOT the problem; En lement programs, which have grown from negligible, to over 50% of the budget, ARE!

You're completely off-base. From the uneducated eye, it appears that "oh , Social Security and Medicare are friggin' 43% of the budget!"

That's mandated spending. Required by law. President and Congress cannot negotiate that spending.

The single largest budget of the discretionary budget was DoD. Discretionary budget is the part of the budget that can be negotiated and the part where I expect a fiscal conservative to show some discipline. Military spending, including the DoD budget, makes up nearly 60% of the discretionary budget.

Get your facts straight. Don't be a pseudo-fiscal conservative unless you know what you're talking about.

[101A]

You're completely off-base. From the uneducated eye, it appears that "oh , Social Security and Medicare are friggin' 43% of the budget!"

to the educated eye they are somewhat more than that.

That's mandated spending. Required by law. President and Congress cannot negotiate that spending.

So, this money grows on trees, is magical, wtf does it matter why we spend the money; my poiint was WE ARE SPENDING THE MONEY

The single largest budget of the discretionary budget was DoD. Discretionary budget is the part of the budget that can be negotiated and the part where I expect a fiscal conservative to show some discipline. Military spending, including the DoD budget, makes up nearly 60% of the discretionary budget.

Get your facts straight. Don't be a pseudo-fiscal conservative unless you know what you're talking about.

AND that's why defense has become less and less a percentage of our total budget; I got that. WTF does it matter if we stop spending on the Iraq war completely, let's decomission every damn ship in the Navy and send all the soldiers home! Congratulations, you've cut 20% of the budget; and can fund all the R&D you want! NOW, what are you going to do in 20 years, when those untouchable programs you're so proud of EAT UP THAT 20% TOO!!!!!????? You want to fix this w/o touching the elephant in the living room?

Pseudo fiscal conservative my ass, you are delusional.

[some_user86]

to the educated eye they are somewhat more than that.

So, this money grows on trees, is magical, wtf does it matter why we spend the money; my poiint was WE ARE SPENDING THE MONEY

AND that's why defense has become less and less a percentage of our total budget; I got that. WTF does it matter if we stop spending on the Iraq war completely, let's decomission every damn ship in the Navy and send all the soldiers home! Congratulations, you've cut 20% of the budget; and can fund all the R&D you want! NOW, what are you going to do in 20 years, when those untouchable programs you're so proud of EAT UP THAT 20% TOO!!!!!????? You want to fix this w/o touching the elephant in the living room?

Pseudo fiscal conservative my ass, you are delusional.

My point was that discretionary spending is under the President's control (without having to take the extraordinary measures of fighting to remove mandated programs). Listen, you're not going to cut into mandated programs anytime soon, so we may as well suck it up and make do with what we've got, right? I mean a Democrat did. So how come the real fiscal conservatives can't? Oh that's right, Republicans only are fiscally conservative when convenient. the elephant and the donkey.

Did I ever say that we need to decommission the military? No. My point was that it is out of control spending on a pointless war. We took our eye off the ing ball. The ball was in Afghanistan and Pakistan, not in Iraq.

And are you happy with Bush's spending elsewhere? The friggin' budget has risen everywhere. I don't care if they cut spending or increase taxes, but you gotta balance the budget. The economics don't work otherwise. The inflationary pressures are too great when we borrow from other countries. It hurts everyone.

[101A]

My point was that discretionary spending is under the President's control (without having to take the extraordinary measures of fighting to remove mandated programs). Listen, you're not going to cut into mandated programs anytime soon, so we may as well suck it up and make do with what we've got, right? I mean a Democrat did. So how come the real fiscal conservatives can't? Oh that's right, Republicans only are fiscally conservative when convenient. the elephant and the donkey.

Did I ever say that we need to decommission the military? No. My point was that it is out of control spending on a pointless war. We took our eye off the ing ball. The ball was in Afghanistan and Pakistan, not in Iraq.

And are you happy with Bush's spending elsewhere? The friggin' budget has risen everywhere. I don't care if they cut spending or increase taxes, but you gotta balance the budget. The economics don't work otherwise. The inflationary pressures are too great when we borrow from other countries. It hurts everyone.

I am certainly NOT happy with Bush's spending. I am far more pissed about that, than Iraq.

Clinton controlled spending? Clinton with a Republican controlled congress, led by the only true conservative on the national scene with power in recent years; Gingrich, somewhat controlled spending.

The insane .com bubble - and what it did for govt. revenue, didn't hurt.

[some_user86]

I am certainly NOT happy with Bush's spending. I am far more pissed about that, than Iraq.

Clinton controlled spending? Clinton with a Republican controlled congress, led by the only true conservative on the national scene with power in recent years; Gingrich, somewhat controlled spending.

The insane .com bubble - and what it did for govt. revenue, didn't hurt.

Right. It was politically convenient to be fiscally conservative.

The last three Republican administrations have proven to me that a Republican president can't be fiscally conservative.

A Democrat president + Republican congress on the other hand... they do wonders.

[101A]

Right. It was politically convenient to be fiscally conservative.

The last three Republican administrations have proven to me that a Republican president can't be fiscally conservative.

A Democrat president + Republican congress on the other hand... they do wonders.

Yeah, but we ain't getting a Republican Congress. I AM NOT about to roll the dice on THIS Democrat congress with either of these decidely, very proudly progressive, potential Democrat Presidents!

McCain might just be stubborn enough to foster some spending controls (wouldn't count on it coming from defense, however)

[George Gervin's Afro]

yeah, and right now she's eating barbacoa tacos downed with Mineral water and listening to La Invasora 107.9.

you.

[some_user86]

Yeah, but we ain't getting a Republican Congress. I AM NOT about to roll the dice on THIS Democrat congress with either of these decidely, very proudly progressive, potential Democrat Presidents!

McCain might just be stubborn enough to foster some spending controls (wouldn't count on it coming from defense, however)

That's the biggest part of the budget!

If it were McCain 2000, I could believe that he would act fiscally responsible.

This is McCain 2008. Poor bas 's been brainwashed by the neo-cons.

[smeagol]

If the Democrats that post on this thread are a reflection of the general Democrat population, you guys are screwed.

And you deserve to be screwed . . .

[Mr. Peabody]

That a significant portion of Clinton's voters are more aligned with McCain's point of view than with Obama's. This will be one of a few reasons why Obama gets smashed in the General election...

I am one of those who is more aligned with McCain than Obama..

You heard it here first..

I don't understand what you are saying here. From a pure policy perspective, Clinton and Obama are nearly identical. , a Hillary precinct captain and I were having this very discussion yesterday while we spent the entire day working the polls. They both have fairly progressive agendas. The reason I support Obama over Hillary has more to do with his approach to politics and how he plans on getting his agenda realized. But I can't be honest with myself, as a progressive, and say that I am more aligned with McCain than I am Hillary, because it is simply not true.

I will concede that there is a part of me that would be resentful if Hillary stole the election and I might be tempted to vote for McCain. But if I did, it would be out of spite and not because I find myself more aligned with McCain's views. I suspect that your "significant portion" of Clinton supporters would be voting McCain for the same reason.*

*Unless, of course, you are referring to the Clinton supporters who voted for Clinton at the direction of Limbaugh. I am sure their points of view are more aligned with McCain's than Obama's.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I don't understand what you are saying here. From a pure policy perspective, Clinton and Obama are nearly identical. , a Hillary precinct captain and I were having this very discussion yesterday while we spent the entire day working the polls. They both have fairly progressive agendas. The reason I support Obama over Hillary has more to do with his approach to politics and how he plans on getting his agenda realized. But I can't be honest with myself, as a progressive, and say that I am more aligned with McCain than I am Hillary, because it is simply not true.

I will concede that there is a part of me that would be resentful if Hillary stole the election and I might be tempted to vote for McCain. But if I did, it would be out of spite and not because I find myself more aligned with McCain's views. I suspect that your "significant portion" of Clinton supporters would be voting McCain for the same reason.*

*Unless, of course, you are referring to the Clinton supporters who voted for Clinton at the direction of Limbaugh. I am sure their points of view are more aligned with McCain's than Obama's.

I guess my point is that Obama is farther left than Hillary is. Clinton has been more of a centrist than a leftist during her senatorial career. I think that a part of her base is more centrist than the leftwing base of the party. I know many folks who back clinton are moderate in their politics and would fall in line with a Republican lite candidate that is more of a centrist than a rightwinger. Believe it or not there are many independant/moderate voters who aren't blown away by Obama or his speeches. I personally am one of those who wasn't a Hillary fan before this Presidential campaign started and was leaning towards Obama. As this whole process started I was never blown away by Obama's speeches or his message of change. I found it kind of humorous when people spoke if him as the second coming because I never felt that way about him. My intial view of him was very favorable but i thought he was to young and inexperienced and would be better served as a VP candidate. He was young enough to serve an 8 yr term as VP and be a viable and strong presidential candidate following his service.

Take your Obama glasses for a second and try to think about this objectively. When the general election starts and all of the undecided moderates are given a choice of McCAin or Obama to lead this country in a time of war the choice is clear. Would you want experience? Or a guy who is good looking and is a great orator? I am more moderate than left wing and to me that's not a tough choice. Consider Clinton's voting bloc women, older white americans,latinos (who like Mccain's immigration plan).. ANY number of these folks who defect will harm Obama... I guess you could assume that 75% of these folks come to Obama... the other 25% to Mccain..game over and so id Obama's aspirations of becoming president.

My gut tells me to vote for McCain.. I consider myself a level headed, pragmatic person..

[xrayzebra]

I don't understand what you are saying here. From a pure policy perspective, Clinton and Obama are nearly identical. , a Hillary precinct captain and I were having this very discussion yesterday while we spent the entire day working the polls. They both have fairly progressive agendas. The reason I support Obama over Hillary has more to do with his approach to politics and how he plans on getting his agenda realized. But I can't be honest with myself, as a progressive, and say that I am more aligned with McCain than I am Hillary, because it is simply not true.

I will concede that there is a part of me that would be resentful if Hillary stole the election and I might be tempted to vote for McCain. But if I did, it would be out of spite and not because I find myself more aligned with McCain's views. I suspect that your "significant portion" of Clinton supporters would be voting McCain for the same reason.*

*Unless, of course, you are referring to the Clinton supporters who voted for Clinton at the direction of Limbaugh. I am sure their points of view are more aligned with McCain's than Obama's.

You have an interesting perspective of Obama and his plans. His only foreign policy plan is to surrender and
talk to the bad guys who hate us. His only agenda for
his domestic policy is more of the same domestic
democrat policy (yeah I spelled it right this time) just
more money. We all know that works. Don't we?

[clambake]

OMG, ray said "democrat"!!!