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America, eatin' my lunch from a single bowl in my parents basement, where I'm livin'. Happy Birthday, I'm forty-three.
Don't want to waste those precious calories...chewin'. Jesus come move my jaw for me, help me get my sloppy food down my throat.
STFU Roger Bell
America, eatin' my lunch from a single bowl in my parents basement, where I'm livin'. Happy Birthday, I'm forty-three.
Don't want to waste those precious calories...chewin'. Jesus come move my jaw for me, help me get my sloppy food down my throat.
Ummm you need excellent coaching to win in this league as well. A ty unproven coach who cant handle playoff pressure + damn good proven players= no championship. You need both.
Roger BellSTFU Roger Bell
I agree with DazedAndConfused, I think that DET or BOS will win the le this year.
You suck at life.
How proven was Pop in 1999? How proven was Phil Jackson in 1991? How proven was Pat Riley in 1982?
So the East is a cakewalk and the West is intense battles? You think playing easy as pie EC teams to get to the Finals will get the Celtics or the Pistons ready for a battle hardened WC team? The East team won't know what hit them in the Finals using your reasoning. Having it easy won't get you ready as is battling through everyone's best. The Spurs go through it every game. They have to weather every NBA teams best because they are the Champions and every one wants to beat the Champions. Long live the kings! The San Antonio Spurs!
Last edited by ehz33satx; 03-11-2008 at 11:50 PM.
Those coaches were actually good and had it in them from the start. Flip was never a good coach and will never been anywhere near the greatness of Pop/Phil/Riley. Rick Adleman s himself in playoff pressure situations. Flip is worse in the moment of playoff pressure than Adleman is by far.
What's hysterical is you thinking Flip will even go near that path or even comparing them. he will be lucky to make it anywhere near Adleman's level (And considering how bad Flip is in the playoffs, that says ALOT). You should hire Larry Brown back. You can say how much the Sheed trade helped (and it obviously did) but that Pistons team doesnt win a championship if it wasnt for Larry Browns coaching. Joe Dumars should get on his knees and beg LB to come back. You lost that swagger when LB left and it has shown. You made 2 Finals appearances with LB and then got your asses kicked in both game 6's from the ECF under Flip. You wont get that specific championship swagger back with a guy who thinks he is Gods gift to coaching.
First of all, I didn't even know you were specifically talking about Flip Saunders. I was just criticizing your comment in general that talked about unproven coaches.
Gregg Popovich's first real coaching job was when he fired Bob Hill and took over for the Spurs in the 1996-97 season and led that team to a 17-47 record under him. Oh, and then the Spurs drafted Tim Duncan that summer and proceeded to be the most successful NBA team over the past decade. How was Pop proven at all before that 1999 le? He coached a few years under Larry Brown and was in management.
Phil Jackson's first NBA coaching job was with the Bulls in 1989-90. He didn't even build that Bulls team. That was Doug Collins' team. They were already on the verge of winning a le. Phil Jackson went along for the ride with what Jordan was already about to do.
Pat Riley was a broadcaster before he was hired as an assistant coach by the Lakers. He wouldn't even had been the head coach if Magic didn't have Paul Westhead fired. Pat Riley took over in the middle of the 1981-82 season, and the Lakers won the le that very year. How was Riley already proven and good?
None of those coaches would have had any success in the NBA without Magic, Michael, and Tim because they wouldn't have lasted long enough to allow their owners to realize they were good coaches. The only one of those three that had even any real coaching experience was Phil Jackson.
Flip Saunders had 8 years of coaching experience in college. He coaches six years in the CBA and won two championships in the CBA. Quite a different resume from Riley, Jackson, and Popovich.
I never claimed that Flip Saunders was a great coach. But, to say a team has no chance without a proven coach is simply false. It's the players. It's always been the players. Larry Brown wasn't the reason the Pistons won the championship in 2004. Joe Dumars should beg him to come back? Are you that much of an idiot? Did you not see how over-cooked the guy is from his last year with the Knicks? He's coached over 30 years in the NBA, and his one and only NBA le is with the Pistons that were ready built that very first year coached them? Get the out of here.
You know jack squat and just proved it.
I didnt say he was the sole reason but if you are going to say it would have been the same results with Flip Saunders or Dan Scott that year, then it goes to show you know jack . The players respect the out of LB and he brought out the best in them. Flip cant command respect like that and he cant encourage his team the way LB could.
And bull it's always been the players. Great coaches need talented players and vice versa. You need both.
What have the Pistons done since LB bolted? They havent even sniffed the finals yet were damn near repeating during his time there. They got the beaten out of them by Miami in 2006 and in the 4th quarter of Game 6 of 2007 ECF they got their asses kicked to an early summer vacation.
Why the do you think the Lakers got back to the championship so quickly? They had 4 all stars at one point in 1998 under that piece of Del Harris. In 1999 Kurt Rambis didnt help matters with a very talented Lakers team. Under Phil Jackson, this team gets over the top and 3 peats. Coaching matters and to say it doesnt impact the game or the team is pure bull .
Last edited by Tradition; 03-12-2008 at 01:52 AM.
LOL, the Lakers got back to the championships 12 years later. How is that so quickly? And, to answer your question, Shaquille O'Neal. The Lakers would have won championships without Phil Jackson. Maybe not all three, but they would have won some.
It's always been about the players. Period. Why do you think the Lakers won a le in 1982 when firing Westhead in the middle of the season and having Riley take over as a first time head coach? Come on dude. It's about the players.
The 80s Celtics won les under two different coaches, Bill Fitch and KC Jones. The Bill Russell Celtics won two more les after Red Auerbach retired as coach and the team was coached by... player Bill Russell. It's about the players.
Look at Pat Riley's record without Magic or Shaq. He couldn't get Patrick Ewing a ring, and it took Shaq to get a ring for Alonzo Mourning.
Look at Red Holzman's record with the Hawks before he coached the Walt Frazier and Willis Reed Knicks. It's pathetic.
It's always been about the players. Most coaches in the NBA are good to great coaches. There are a handful that aren't good and a handful that are outstanding. But, in order to get championship success, it's about the players. Period.
Man you are usually one of the most intelligent posters on here, but how on earth can you say it's all about the players? Phil Jackson is THE reason the Lakers were able to 3-peat. He took the talent that was there and morphed it into a beast of a team that was able to win 3 straight. You need both to win consistently in this league.
Answer honestly, if the Lakers never hire Phil Jackson, do the Lakers win les with Shaq and Kobe, say if Del Harris remained as coach?
I say yes, they do. Maybe they don't three-peat. But, they still win multiple les without Phil Jackson.
Do the Jordan Bulls win les under Doug Collins?
I say yes.
If you want to say Phil Jackson was able to manage personalities so that the Bulls and Lakers could maximize how many les they won and made it sooner, sure. But, is it the coaching? Michael and Scottie and Shaq and Kobe could not have won les without Phil Jackson's coaching?
Nah. I don't buy that one bit.
Not a chance in . There were intangables Phil had especially with his zen master styles to the team. Phil is an amazing coach during a make or break crisis. If Del Harris was the coach of the Kobe/Shaq fiasco during the 2000-2001 season, things would have ended in a horrible disaster. They would have hit rock bottom and imploded resulting in Shaq or Kobe getting traded that summer or the team chemistry getting even worse the following season. Those pre Phil Kobe/Shaq teams were very good but they were missing something. A coach who could mesh those 2 as leaders and build a solid supporting cast around them making them a TEAM. Phil was that coach. Harris would not have done that.
See here is where your argument has holes. You first talked about having "excellent coaching" and criticized how "unproven" coaching that can't handle playoff pressure as the barometer of being able to win championships. Now you are adding intangibles about managing egos of players as factors. That's not about coaching in the playoffs. That's about again the management of players.
I have no problem agreeing that great coaching helps teams. But, it still comes down to the players. Let me clarify. If great players who can win les accept coaching, they can win. You could make Lawrence Frank or Eric Musselman the 1999-2002 Shaq and Kobe Lakers and if both Shaq and Kobe accepted their coaching, they would have still won les. You make Phil Jackson or Gregg Popovich the head coaches of Atlanta or Milwaukee over the past 10 years, they still don't win les. At the NBA level, I would say up to 90% of the head coaches are great coaches. And, given the right players, they will win. Give 90% of the head coaches in the league the 1997 San Antonio Spurs and Tim Duncan and David Robinson to build from, and they will find ways to win multiple championships. It comes down to the players, and those players accepting the coaching given to them. If players completely tune out their coach, of course they're not going to win. That's not coaching, that personality conflict.
Why do you think Kareem won les with two different teams, same with Wilt, same with Shaq in Miami, same with Tim Duncan with three completely different supporting casts? It wasn't the coaching. It's the talent of the players. How could Magic and Kareem win a le under Paul Westhead and then two years later win one under Pat Riley?
The vast majority of NBA coaches know how to coach and are great coaches. It's about the talent of the players and their willingness to accept the coaching they're given that allows great players to win championships. Phil Jackson hasn't won les because he's that much better of a coach than every other NBA head coach. It's because he's had superior talent.
Great coaching helps, but winning championships still come down to the talent of the players.
I've already given several examples of unproven coaches winning les. Unproven coaches can win les if the team has the talent and the players are willing to follow the coaching.
The Pistons vs Lakers doesn't concern me much, I think the two teams play well against each other.
Celtics on the other hand have beaten the crap out of the Lakers. The Cavaliers also beat the Lakers but I didn't see a convincing win.
They are the only team to have the Lakers' # this year.
The one thing you said that I agree with is that the battles any team in the West will have to go through to reach the Finals may, in fact, determine the champion. Boston and Detroit are worlds better than any other team in the East, but not worlds better than any team in the West, and both have serious weaknesses which may be exposed in a 7 game series.
However, because every round, every match up, in the West could be a 7 game series, it leaves a lot of room for injury and fatigue to play a factor in the NBA Finals, and could mean victory for either Detroit or Boston.
Personally I'm sticking with my prediction:
Lakers v. Spurs in the WCF Spurs win in 7
Pistons v. Boston in the ECF Pistons win in 7
Spurs v. Pistons in the Finals, Spurs win in 6 of 7 games
So if the Lakers replace Phil with YOU as the head coach and the players give into your coaching, they could win the championship? I think we found our Phil Jackson replacement!
In terms of the talent of the players, one thing is for sure. You NEED superstars or at least have one of your players play at a superstar level in the playoffs to win it all(Billups easily did that in 04 especially in the Finals). I think you can agree with me on that. You arent going to be champions if you dont have a superstar or somebody playing at that level.
You reading comprehension really needs to improve.
Let's take a more recent example, the PHX Suns. They have had All-Stars at nearly every starting position on their team for the past 3-4 seasons. They have had multiple 60+ win seasons. And yet they still haven't made it to the Finals. They have the talent to win it all, but the coaching isn't good enough IMHO.
Or they didn't and don't play any defense, which you can attribute to the coaches or the players.
You can come up with examples til you're blue in the face. So can I. I already stated several. Pat Riley in 1982, Popovich in 1999, the Bill Russell Celtics winning two les with BILL RUSSELL coaching them, Red Holzman and the Knicks.
Coaching can be a factor. But, it still comes down to the players.
Coaching can be a factor? Coaching IS a huge factor. There's a reason why Phil Jackson, Greg Popovich, and Pat Riley have won the lion's share of NBA Championships in the last 2-3 decades. It's also the reason why the Pistons lost last year to a much weaker Cavs team.
Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich, and Pat Riley have coached Magic, Michael, Shaq, Kobe, and Tim Duncan. The reason the Pistons lost to the Cavs last year was LeBron James. As soon as LeBron wins a le, are you going to tell me Mike Brown is in the same stratosphere as Jackson, Popovich, and Riley? Get the out of here.
No, Mike Brown would have to repeat that success over and over again before he could be compared to the greats. All I'm saying is that you need good coaching and supreme talent to win consistently in this league. Not sure what you are trying to argue, that you can have mediocre coaching and supreme talent and still win?
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