Amare = Most overrated PF in the game

[balli]

Fortunately for Amare, most NBA franchises like having a point guard on their teams. There are very, very few teams that don't play with a point guard, and even those teams have a guard or point forward that orchestrates the offense, which basically is the role of a point guard.

Fortunately for him, but that doesn't make him great. It is a huge advantage to have a PF who can create his own shot from the post without the PG's help. Huge. And Amare can't do it.

All he'll ever be is a finisher for his PG. That's enough to get by in this league, especially if you finish as well as Amare does. It is not enough to make him into an MVP candidate or a top PF though. Combine that with his awful D & that's the reason he's overrated.

[stretch]

Al Jefferson is not better than Amare Stoudemire.

Wrong. Jefferson rebounds, scores on his own, and plays defense.

Dirk is slightly better than Amare, not overwhelmingly so.

ing wrong. Dirk puts up better numbers and more wins as the #1 option on his team and having to create 85% of his offense by himself. Amare is the #2 guy on his and has 95% of his offense created for him.

Rasheed is more talented than Amare, not sure if he's better. He would be better if wanted to be. But, Rasheed doesn't necessarily want to be.

He doesn't have to play better all the time. But if I needed a guy in the 4th quarter for both ends of the court, I'm taking Sheed all ing day. Nuff said.

Elton Brand didn't play all year. He may have been better when he was healthy. Hard to make that claim right now.

Brand is better. Like Jefferson, he creates his own offense, rebounds, and plays defense.

[Medvedenko]

Look, I know he leads the league in pushups, but he's pretty damn good player. From what I see and I watch a lot of games he has a decent jumper and can drive and use his quickness to get shots off. He doesn't really have a back to the basket game, but he's a great finisher and can create space with his drive.

[stretch]

Fortunately for Amare, most NBA franchises like having a point guard on their teams. There are very, very few teams that don't play with a point guard, and even those teams have a guard or point forward that orchestrates the offense, which basically is the role of a point guard.

Yea, but not many PG's in NBA history has the passing and shooting ability of Steve Nash, do they, smartass?

Let's see how good he is with Jason Terry running PG. That should answer those questions.

[balli]

He doesn't really have a back to the basket game, but he's a great finisher and can create space with his drive.

How could a PF without a post-game be called one of the best? I just don't get it. That's what good PF's do- play with their back to the basket.

[Medvedenko]

How could a PF without a post-game be called one of the best? I just don't get it. That's what good PF's do- play with their back to the basket.

I agree, but his other talents like the blow by and jumper make up for it. If he had a half ass post up game, he'd be the best PF in the world.

[stretch]

he has a decent jumper

only when wide ing open. doesnt mean if you have a guy in your grill though.

can drive and use his quickness to get shots off.

no he can't. all he does is jump into his defenders, or get a P&R to have a smaller guy switched onto him so he can go over him.

He doesn't really have a back to the basket game, but he's a great finisher

can't argue that. ive always loved his soft touch around the rim.

and can create space with his drive.

no.

[monosylab1k]

I don't see Amare as being any farther along the "greatness" level than Bruce Bowen.

Bowen has been among the greatest defensive players in the league, but he's not a strong player on offense besides his corner three. Nobody is calling him one of the great players in the game, or a top-5 SF, and there has certainly been no MVP talk.

Amare is among the best offensive players in the league, but he is absolutely horrid on defense besides a block here or there. He deserves to be put on the same level as Bowen. Great on one end, fairly nonexistent on the other.

Actually he should be lower than Bowen, because Bowen actually puts forth an effort on both ends of the court.

[stretch]

I agree, but his other talents like the blow by and jumper make up for it. If he had a half ass post up game, he might be the best offensive PF in the world.

fixed.

[balli]

I agree, but his other talents like the blow by and jumper make up for it. If he had a half ass post up game, he'd be the best PF in the world.

They don't make up for it. His drive out of the high post is his only move. It's a good move, true, but it's the only thing he does by himself. One move a great PF does not make.

His jumper is decent, but it certainly isn't better than Boozer, Garnett. Duncan, etc. Plus he has to be wide open to get it off.

Unfortunately he doesn't even have a "half-assed" post up game, so really, it's a moot point.

[JamStone]

Yea, but not many PG's in NBA history has the passing and shooting ability of Steve Nash, do they, smartass?

Let's see how good he is with Jason Terry running PG. That should answer those questions.

Uh, the kid led his team in scoring, dropping almost 21 ppg in 2003-04 with more than half the season with Leandro Barbosa as the point guard, who isn't a point guard and Howard Eisley backing him up. I'd say he can carry his own without Nash. His team would suck, but uh any team is going to suck if a player's teammates aren't very good. KG's Timberwolves sucked several years when McHale failed to put a quality surrounding cast around KG. Kobe's Lakers sucked in 2004-05 when his teammates weren't very good. Amare's team wouldn't be as good without Steve Nash. Uh yeah. Of course it wouldn't be. He's still going to put up numbers.

With Jason Terry running the point, Amare would likely be just about as effective as Dirk. You act like Terry can't play at all. He might be a combo guard, but he's still a player.

I'm not even one claiming Amare is an MVP candidate or he's a superstar or anything like that. But, give the guy some credit. He has his limitations. But so do most players in the league. Some of you act like he's one of the worst power forward in the league.

[stretch]

Uh, the kid led his team in scoring, dropping almost 21 ppg in 2003-04 with more than half the season with Leandro Barbosa as the point guard, who isn't a point guard and Howard Eisley backing him up. I'd say he can carry his own without Nash. His team would suck, but uh any team is going to suck if a player's teammates aren't very good. KG's Timberwolves sucked several years when McHale failed to put a quality surrounding cast around KG. Kobe's Lakers sucked in 2004-05 when his teammates weren't very good. Amare's team wouldn't be as good without Steve Nash. Uh yeah. Of course it wouldn't be. He's still going to put up numbers.

With Jason Terry running the point, Amare would likely be just about as effective as Dirk. You act like Terry can't play at all. He might be a combo guard, but he's still a player.

I'm not even one claiming Amare is an MVP candidate or he's a superstar or anything like that. But, give the guy some credit. He has his limitations. But so do most players in the league. Some of you act like he's one of the worst power forward in the league.

No one acted like he is one of the worst PF's in the league at all. I just said that he plays no defense, doesnt rebound, and while has some good offensive ability, its mostly due to his incredible athleticism, as opposed to skills. Dirk and Duncan aren't an incredible athletes, but are incredibly skilled, and are far better players than Amare could ever hope to be.

[JamStone]

Wrong. Jefferson rebounds, scores on his own, and plays defense.

Since when did Jefferson play defense?

ing wrong. Dirk puts up better numbers and more wins as the #1 option on his team and having to create 85% of his offense by himself. Amare is the #2 guy on his and has 95% of his offense created for him.

Dirk can dribble the ball. Hurray! I said Dirk is better. He's just not miles ahead of Amare. Dirk can create his own shot. Great. And, he's improved his defense. Great. When it comes to actual production, Dirk isn't that much better than Amare. So Amare has a better point guard. Ok. It's not Amare's fault. At 25, Amare's putting up better numbers than Dirk did when Dirk was 25 with that same point guard.

He doesn't have to play better all the time. But if I needed a guy in the 4th quarter for both ends of the court, I'm taking Sheed all ing day. Nuff said.

I'll agree with that. Sheed has more talent. And, in the clutch, he is a better player. I'd take Sheed too. But, Sheed is more content being a role player. In the fourth, he doesn't care if he gets the ball or not. He's more than willing to let Billups or Hamilton take over. If his number is called, he'll perform. But, he doesn't want or need to be "the guy." I consider Rasheed the ultimate role player because he has the talent to be a go-to guy but the unselfishness of a role player.

Brand is better. Like Jefferson, he creates his own offense, rebounds, and plays defense.

Today's Elton Brand is not necessarily Elton Brand pre-injury. So until he proves that, I would reserve judgment in calling him the better player. That was my only point.

[balli]

I don't think he's one of the worst in the league and I realize you're not calling him MVP. The fact is though, that Amare is not one of the best in the league either. He's somewhere in the middle, but he eats salary like he was THE best.

If I were a GM trying to build a championship and if you gave me a choice for a guy like Scola for example; a guy who played D, got rebounds, could give you maybe 10 pts a night from the post and he cost half as much, I would take him over Amare in a heartbeat.

Amare's dunks and jumping ability have made him into a high-paid superstar. His s om demands undue amounts of money for a guy who will never be anything but a finisher. Given that fact his game is innefficient and ultimately, not conducive to team success.

[JamStone]

No one acted like he is one of the worst PF's in the league at all. I just said that he plays no defense, doesnt rebound, and while has some good offensive ability, its mostly due to his incredible athleticism, as opposed to skills. Dirk and Duncan aren't an incredible athletes, but are incredibly skilled, and are far better players than Amare could ever hope to be.

Amare isn't the elite rebounder guys like KG or Dwight Howard or Duncan are, but a 9.1 career rebounding average says that he's not a guy that doesn't rebound. Please.

Have you not watched how Amare has improved his jumpshot over the years? How is that due to incredible athleticism. Plus, it takes more than just athleticism to efficiently execute a pick-and-roll. If all of Amare's points were in transition and on offensive putbacks, it would be one thing. But, there is skill at executing the pick-and-roll. And, there is skill at hitting a 15-18 foot jump shot.

Dirk and Duncan aren't mind-blowing athletes like Amare, LeBron, and Dwight Howard. But, they are both great athletes. If a guy like Amare is a 10 in terms of athleticism, Dirk is at least a 9 and Duncan is an 8.5, maybe a 9 as well. Dirk is actually a phenomenal athlete, especially considering his agilty and quickness for his size.

Amare probably won't ever be as skilled as Dirk or Duncan. When you're talking about two of the most skilled power forwards in the game, it's hard to be that. But, he doesn't need to be in order to be a great player in this league.

[stretch]

Since when did Jefferson play defense?

Compared to Amare? Get the outta here...

Dirk can dribble the ball. Hurray! I said Dirk is better. He's just not miles ahead of Amare. Dirk can create his own shot. Great. And, he's improved his defense. Great. When it comes to actual production, Dirk isn't that much better than Amare. So Amare has a better point guard. Ok. It's not Amare's fault. At 25, Amare's putting up better numbers than Dirk did when Dirk was 25 with that same point guard.

So you are saying that stats are more important than the things that matter that don't show up on the stat board? Like determination, effort, heart, clutch play, defense, etc...? Okay, since offensive stats is all that matters, then Allen Iverson is a top 5 player ever since he has ridiculous scoring averages along with very solid assist numbers.

I'll agree with that. Sheed has more talent. And, in the clutch, he is a better player. I'd take Sheed too. But, Sheed is more content being a role player. In the fourth, he doesn't care if he gets the ball or not. He's more than willing to let Billups or Hamilton take over. If his number is called, he'll perform. But, he doesn't want or need to be "the guy." I consider Rasheed the ultimate role player because he has the talent to be a go-to guy but the unselfishness of a role player.

I agree. Thus, Rasheed > Amare.

Today's Elton Brand is not necessarily Elton Brand pre-injury. So until he proves that, I would reserve judgment in calling him the better player. That was my only point.

Good for you. Elton is still better.

[JamStone]

I don't think he's one of the worst in the league and I realize you're not calling him MVP. The fact is though, that Amare is not one of the best in the league either. He's somewhere in the middle.

If I were a GM trying to build a championship and if you gave me a choice between a guy like Scola for example; a guy who played D, got rebounds, could give you maybe 10 pts a night from the post and he cost half as much, I would take him over Amare in a heartbeat.

Amare's dunks and jumping ability have made him into a high-paid superstar. His s om demands undue amounts of money for a guy who will never be anything but a finisher. Given that fact his game is innefficient and ultimately, not conducive to team success.

Among NBA power forwards, where would you rank Amare Stoudemire?

Somewhere in the middle? Like around 15 among starting power forwards?

I'd like to know where you rank him among power forwards in the league.



edit:

If I were a GM trying to build a championship and if you gave me a choice between a guy like Scola for example; a guy who played D, got rebounds, could give you maybe 10 pts a night from the post and he cost half as much, I would take him over Amare in a heartbeat.

You wouldn't be an NBA GM for very long.

[mavsfan1000]

Amare is the best scoring power forward in the league. Stop hating.

[Medvedenko]

Yeah, let's see this ranking.....

[JamStone]

Compared to Amare? Get the outta here...

You didn't say compared to Amare. You just said Al Jefferson plays defense. He does?

So you are saying that stats are more important than the things that matter that don't show up on the stat board? Like determination, effort, heart, clutch play, defense, etc...? Okay, since offensive stats is all that matters, then Allen Iverson is a top 5 player ever since he has ridiculous scoring averages along with very solid assist numbers.

No, but while Dirk has actually learned how to try harder on defense, he's still not very good. And, while since his ankle injury, he's shown a lot of heart, plenty of people have questioned his heart, determination, and clutch play the past couple seasons. Where does Dirk have Amare?

If you want to say defense, lol, it's barely. If you want to say effort or determination, I'd ask what evidence? If you want to say clutch play, I'd ask about Golden State last year and the 2006 Finals. So, where's the major difference that makes Dirk better?

I agree. Thus, Rasheed > Amare.

If you agree, then you're saying:

great third option > main option

Good for you. Elton is still better.

No.

[stretch]

Amare isn't the elite rebounder guys like KG or Dwight Howard or Duncan are, but a 9.1 career rebounding average says that he's not a guy that doesn't rebound. Please.

When no one else rebounds the ball, and almost every game he has one of those times where he misses 2 or 3 putbacks to shoot his rebounding stat up in a quick spurt, then yes, his numbers will raise. Also, playing such a high tempo game with more shots, will lead to more missed shots, which also leads to more rebounds available to grab. In a San Antonio/Dallas pace, he would be lucky to average more than 6 boards a game.

Have you not watched how Amare has improved his jumpshot over the years? How is that due to incredible athleticism. Plus, it takes more than just athleticism to efficiently execute a pick-and-roll. If all of Amare's points were in transition and on offensive putbacks, it would be one thing. But, there is skill at executing the pick-and-roll. And, there is skill at hitting a 15-18 foot jump shot.

It has improved. Instead of airballing wide open 17 footers, he hits them, but still can't shoot if anyone is within 5 feet of him.

And there is more skill required to run a P&R if you have an average PG throwing passes for you. But in Nash's case, its just "set the pick and run" because he will get you the pass, or bust your ass with a 3. The issue with the P&R against Phoenix isn't about how you defend Amare. Its a "pick your poison" with Nash, because he will either thread a pass to Amare, or hit a jumper. Everyone knows that Nash is the focal point of the offense, P&R, everything for the Suns...

Amare probably won't ever be as skilled as Dirk or Duncan. When you're talking about two of the most skilled power forwards in the game, it's hard to be that. But, he doesn't need to be in order to be a great player in this league.

No, but you do need to at least TRY to play defense, which Amare doesn't do.

[balli]

Among NBA power forwards, where would you rank Amare Stoudemire?

Somewhere in the middle? Like around 15 among starting power forwards?

I'd like to know where you rank him among power forwards in the league.



edit:



You wouldn't be an NBA GM for very long.

1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Bynum by this time next year (although he's a C)
4. Boozer
5. Dirk
6. PG-20-10
7. Sheed
8. Bosh
9. Brand- pre injury (but he'll be fine)
10. Amare- Al Jefferson (tie) Although Jefferson will be a better player soon if not already.

Plus, if you consider his salary he becomes even more worthless. I'd rather have a defensive role player PF who doesn't score as much but can occasionally post up and I'd save my money for a guy who could actually create.

Edit: I'd be a GM forever, I wouldn't give 1/3 of my salary cap to a guy like Amare if my life depended on it.

[mavsfan1000]

1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Bynum by this time next year (although he's a C)
4. Boozer
5. Dirk
6. PG-20-10
7. Sheed
8. Bosh
9. Brand- pre injury (but he'll be fine)
10. Amare- Al Jefferson (tie) Although Jefferson will be a better player soon if not already.

Plus, if you consider his salary he becomes even more worthless. I'd rather have a defensive role player PF who doesn't score as much but can occasionally post up and I'd save my money for a guy who could actually create.

Edit: I'd be a GM forever, I wouldn't give 1/3 of my salary cap to a guy like Amare if my life depended on it.

Stop smoking the hippie lettuce. Boozer and Bynum better than Dirk? For me it's
1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Dirk
4. Amare Stoudemire
5. Bosh

[stretch]

You didn't say compared to Amare. You just said Al Jefferson plays defense. He does?

The list was created to compare players to Amare. If you didn't realize that, then why the are you wasting my time arguing with you, when you dont even know how to in read?

No, but while Dirk has actually learned how to try harder on defense, he's still not very good. And, while since his ankle injury, he's shown a lot of heart, plenty of people have questioned his heart, determination, and clutch play the past couple seasons. Where does Dirk have Amare?

Some people have questioned him, plenty have defended. Of course Spurs fans here are going to question him an awful lot, but there are plenty people who defended him quite a bit as well, especially after this season, seeing that a lot of the faliures were not really his fault, but more so because of guys like Howard, Terry, and Stack ing things up at the worst possible times. All you have to do is pull up a highlight reel of Dirk, and half of it will contain major clutch shots, game winners, etc... pull up a highlight reel of Amare, and what do you have? A load of alley-oops that he caught from Steve Nash. But hey! At least they win in the ratings championships if that makes anyone feel better.

If you want to say defense, lol, it's barely. If you want to say effort or determination, I'd ask what evidence? If you want to say clutch play, I'd ask about Golden State last year and the 2006 Finals. So, where's the major difference that makes Dirk better?

I really don't want to go into detail about Dirk and peoples blind haterism of him and the unfair bashing he has gone through, and prove what ing re s his haters and the people that bring up those series truly are. All I will say is this... what big-time clutch plays has Amare ever really been a part of in the playoffs?

If you agree, then you're saying:

great option on a team where anyone can be the 1st or 3rd option on any given night due to the system and unselfishness of the entire club > 2nd option whos entire offense is created for him by arguably the best offensive PG in NBA history

Fixed.

No.

Yes. Die.

[balli]

Stop smoking the hippie lettuce. Boozer better than Dirk?

Maybe it's my Jazz homerism and Booze is pretty damn soft on D, but at least he doesn't fold like a little everytime he sees a double team.

Edit: Amare doesn't see double teams because he doesn't even have the skill to hold the ball and create/pass against 1 defender, much less two.