McCain say we cannot ever toture any ..... A M E R I C A N !

[PixelPusher]

And ... would you at least admit that some liberal opinions are partially informed by "lame" stereotypes of conservatives as: backward, southern, uneducated, racist, bigot, sexist, phobe?

Not all Conservatives are "backward, southern, uneducated, racist, bigot, sexist, phobes," although I am sure a few are. So no insults or "lame lib. stereotypes" here.

[BradLohaus]

This happened in the 1950s, not that long ago, but still, a long time ago. If that made any sense.

The official story is that it went on into the late 60s and possibly early 70s, when most of the do ents were destroyed on the orders of the head of the CIA. But you can boil that explanation down to this:

"Um, yeah, we did some terrible things, but we won't do anything like that ever again...oh by the way, we destroyed most of the evidence."

Would you trust an explanation like that from anybody or any organization? I don't know how we can take the CIA's word on anything.

(Now have we been losing our freedoms over the decades at the hands of the gummint? That's a different story!)

That's what I'm saying, but I'm also saying that it sure looks like the CIA is capable of pretty much anything as long as they think it's necessary and that they can get away with it. It's not hard to imagine a scenario where some American Islamic converts blow something up, and then... well, I guess we have to allow for the torture of Americans as well. And then it's on the books. It's all a slippery slope, and we aren't exactly at the top.

[PixelPusher]

(c) Islam adopts some aspects of European democracy, a bit like Turkey. Some conservatives think this will happen. I don't see it because it doesn't take into account how Islam works. Islam has NEVER not dominated politically where it has conquered (by warfare or otherwise).

Do you have a monolithic view of Islam (or other religions, for that matter) that precludes any possibility transformation or reformation, particularly in the face of the modernity/liberty/culture of the West and globalization in general? Let me put it another way, is Indonesia (majority muslim nation) becoming more liberated/modern like it's neighbors (Australia, Japan, India, etc.) or devolving into a more Arab state-like theocratic/autocratic hole?

[Don Quixote]

Well, I'm not exactly predicting that terrorism from Europe will threaten the US if/when Islam takes over there. In fact, Europe is already doing a fairly good job of producing terrorists as it is! And I'm not predicting that these Islamic republics will be state sponsors of terror. Too early to tell, although it is possible.

But, believe me, you're saying Islam is not capable of causing great harm to Western culture. And I'm saying it is. Certainly having Islamic rulers who will no doubt fail to respect basic human rights will be more conducive to producing terrorism/murder/barbarism.

[PixelPusher]

I don't think Europeans have the political will to stand up to them.

Setting aside the vagueness of whatever "standing up to them" means in a non-military sense, have you ever met a European man or woman who longed trade their culture and freedom for a foreign religious theocracy? I sure as haven't.

[Don Quixote]

i think everyone is partially misinformed by everything

Are you misinformed right now, making that statement?

[Don Quixote]

Do you have a monolithic view of Islam (or other religions, for that matter) that precludes any possibility transformation or reformation, particularly in the face of the modernity/liberty/culture of the West and globalization in general? Let me put it another way, is Indonesia (majority muslim nation) becoming more liberated/modern like it's neighbors (Australia, Japan, India, etc.) or devolving into a more theocratic/autocratic Arab butthole?

Well, Islamic culture is not monolithic. And its interpretations of the Koran and Haditha differ among the four schools of Islamic jurisprudence. But the basic union of umma & state are common. In other words, there is only one secular Islamic country, and it is not a very stable one: Turkey. Turkey is in fact in some turmoil as there is a serious push toward sharia right now.

Iran is another example of a formerly secular country that turned to sharia, in 1979. Some of Nigeria is in danger of it too. I am not sure about Indonesia, but if it liberalizes, it will be because it has compromised Islam. And watch out for the radicals (e.g., they're out there in Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines, killed a few of our missionaries!)!

So ... to answer your question, yes, Islamic culture can accomodate, but only by compromising Islam. This is a fundamental contradiction to the Moslem -- how can he be one person in private and another in public? Indeed, this is a good question for us all.

Now, I don't think sharia has a future in the US (Canda, maybe). We have a very strong separation of religion and state (arguably too strong!) and I don't imagine that Americans will surrender their tradition of freedom too easily. Europe is another matter. I think Islam, which has a strong system of moral beliefs, will have a much easier path in Europe. And those govts better do something.

My overall point is, Islam is a threat to us both culturally and "militarily," was a threat long before 9-11, and will be for the forseeable future. So I won't lose any sleep over terror/murder/destruction suspects getting ruffed up at Gitmo.

[Don Quixote]

Setting aside the vagueness of whatever "standing up to them" means in a non-military sense, have you ever met a European man or woman who longed trade their culture and freedom for a foreign religious theocracy? I sure as haven't.

A good question. Certainly, Western converts to Islam have done just that.

Now, as for the gummints, I would mean that "standing up to them" (a bit vague, I admit) would mean applying civil law to Moslems as they would to everyone else. Examples would be: prohibiting Islamic polygamy, compelling Moslems to pay taxes, outlawing jihad, etc.

But I'm not sure that gummints will enforce their laws or "crack down" on the Moslem immigrants out of fear of reprisals and violence. And the Moslems will never extend the tolerance being given to them by the Europeans. And this is the danger of treating every religion like it's the same. They are clearly not.

[Don Quixote]

We have to allow for the torture of Americans as well. And then it's on the books. It's all a slippery slope, and we aren't exactly at the top.

A valid point. So let's see if non-jihadist Americans have been/are being tortured or held unlawfully. I don't know of any.

come to think of it ... I at last have found a case where the govt is taking away my freedoms!

They're trying to tell me what kind of light bulb to put in my house.
What kind of car to drive! What kind of gasoline to use. What kind of education to give my kids (in California). The gummint is telling restaurants here in La. whether or not paying customers can smoke in them (they can't)!

You're right. We ARE losing our freedom!

[BradLohaus]

A valid point. So let's see if non-jihadist Americans have been/are being tortured or held unlawfully. I don't know of any.

What I'm saying, and I think most people are saying, is that we are going down a dangerous path and that in the future there could be more adjectives in front of the word Amercans other than non-jihadist.

[Don Quixote]

What I'm saying, and I think most people are saying, is that we are going down a dangerous path and that in the future there could be more adjectives in front of the word Americans other than non-jihadist.

I agree. And we should continue to be vigilant that dissenters are not rounded up merely for dissenting. If they're committing crimes against people or property, or planning to blow stuff up, however, then yes, lock em up.

But let's not say that the Bush administration is especially bad about our rights. I don't see the evidence that they are. The Patriot Act, for its faults, was passed in the context of defeating Islamic terror. And I don't want to get into the nuts-and-bolts of FISA/wiretapping, et al. Suffice it to say that it is done, sometimes poorly, with the intent of protecting us.

But I am with you. I am an orthodox conservative and am fully skeptical of big government and its potential for abusing power. So when the wrong people are getting locked up, let me know.

[BonnerDynasty]

i'm not going to say bush is a tyrant or a dictator
but, , we're not getting any more free
and there seems to be zero inclination by any branch of the government to protect civil rights


and one could argue that mccain-feingold violates freedom of speech too

How about the dems trying to end public talk radio? Can't forget dat one yo.



http://www.amazon.com/America-Alone-.../dp/0895260786

The future, as Steyn shows, belongs to the fecund and the confident. And the Islamists are both, while the West—wedded to a multiculturalism that undercuts its own confidence, a welfare state that nudges it toward sloth and self-indulgence, and a childlessness that consigns it to oblivion—is looking ever more like the ruins of a civilization.

Dunno.

[Don Quixote]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351242,00.html

Here's an article out of Rome. Yes, it's FoxNews, but I don't think there's any reason to doubt its basic accuracy. Read what the Moslem cleric has to say.

[Don Quixote]

Another one that addresses the 3 options available for Europe:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...013480,00.html

I don't think options 2 or 3 are going to happen.

[PixelPusher]

A good question. Certainly, Western converts to Islam have done just that.

So I take you haven't met with, talked to any native Europeans? On what basis do you suppose an increasingly secular Europe is clamoring for a culturally alien theocracy?

[clambake]

i have an idea. lets go after the radicals that are clearly based in pakistan.......

oops, thats what obama said...............nevermind.

[boutons_]

"let's see if non-jihadist Americans have been/are being tortured or held unlawfully. I don't know of any."

say some American citizen anti-war protesters, peaceful but completely uncooperative with the militarized local gestapo, show up at the Repug convention, like for the 1968 Dem convention. We already know how the NYC police travelled all over the country, out of their jurisdictions, to secretly investigate any group that could be coming to the 2004 Repug convention.

dubya can call these AMERICAN CITIZENS "enemy combattants", and no one will ever see them again, sequestered in Guantanamo or expedited overseas into the CIAs secret gulag. Of course, they will all be tortured.

Once given a power, the holder never resists using the power. eg, the spotless-record lady who was arrested then, by a gang of police goons, stripped and cavity-searched. The fascist goons had the power, they used it.

[spurster]

What freedoms have we lost? We have lost/are losing privacy between the NSA eavesdropping on the internet and ISPs beginning to do deep packet inspection supposedly for "marketing", "advertising" and copyright filtering.

[boutons_]

'ISPs beginning to do deep packet inspection"

The difference is that ISPs have no power to tatoo and act on anyone as an "enemy combattant".

I do expect the FBI to deputize network operators and/or ISPs so their deep-packet spying will be completely legal.

If you secure your Internet communications with encryption, you're automatically a suspect. Next step is "enemy combattant".

[Nbadan]

Mccain goes old school...

[Don Quixote]

So I take you haven't met with, talked to any native Europeans? On what basis do you suppose an increasingly secular Europe is clamoring for a culturally alien theocracy?

No, I happen to know quite a few. My mother is French, and I have several friends at the seminary from Europe. We have a Russian professor. I also read pieces and books by European writers. And, no, they are not clamoring for sharia to be ins uted.

What I'm saying is that, if current immigration and birth trends continue, that native-born Europeans may be outnumbered by Moslems (both immigrant and native-born) in some parts of Europe within the next fifty years. If the Moslems are not more powerful numerically, they will at least be more powerful politically. And, remember, Islam does not play well with democracy. This is when we could see sharia.

You'll know it when they blow the horn in Rome and compel everyone to bow towards Mecca! Not that it's happening anytime soon.

That said, my contention that Islam poses a threat to Western culture and civilization is a valid one. Does it necessarily follow that the Iraq invasion, et al, were necessarily right? Of course not. But we better take the threat seriously.

[boutons_]

"suppose an increasingly secular Europe is clamoring for a culturally alien theocracy?"

Evidence?

France is 60M, the Arabs are 6M, and Jews a 600K. The French govt has been profoundly secular since the Revolution overthrew the King who was deeply intertwined with Catholic power structure, which was true pretty much throughout Europe, the head of state and head of church ruled together, it they weren't one person (England).

There's no way the current young generation of ethnically-Arab French will start breeding like Palestinians in Gaza. So no way to have sharia democraticaly voted in sharia in France (or any European country).

Arabs taking over Europe and installing sharia is pure fantasy. The Europeans are well aware of the danger and have very active anti-terrorist police. They will not stop them all (Spanish trains, London buses) but their governments won't fall to sharia. That's a fantasy by the American fear-mongering jingoists.

[101A]

Evidence?

Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slur

PARIS (Reuters) - French former film star Brigitte Bardot went on trial on Tuesday for insulting Muslims, the fifth time she has faced the charge of "inciting racial hatred" over her controversial remarks about Islam and its followers.

Prosecutors asked that the Paris court hand the 73-year-old former sex symbol a two-month suspended prison sentence and fine her 15,000 euros ($23,760) for saying the Muslim community was "destroying our country and imposing its acts".

Since retiring from the film industry in the 1970s, Bardot has become a prominent animal rights activist but she has also courted controversy by denouncing Muslim traditions and immigration from predominantly Muslim countries.

She has been fined four times for inciting racial hatred since 1997, at first 1,500 euros and most recently 5,000.

Prosecutor Anne de Fontette told the court she was seeking a tougher sentence than usual, adding: "I am a little tired of prosecuting Mrs Bardot."

Bardot did not attend the trial because she said she was physically unable to. The verdict is expected in several weeks.

French anti-racist groups complained last year about comments Bardot made about the Muslim feast of Eid al-Adha in a letter to President Nicolas Sarkozy that was later published by her foundation.

Muslims traditionally mark Eid al-Adha by slaughtering a sheep or another animal to commemorate the prophet Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son on God's orders.

France is home to 5 million Muslims, Europe's largest Muslim community, making up 8 percent of France's population.

"I am fed up with being under the thumb of this population which is destroying us, destroying our country and imposing its acts," the star of 'And God created woman' and 'Contempt' said.

Bardot has previously said France is being invaded by sheep-slaughtering Muslims and published a book attacking gays, immigrants and the unemployed, in which she also lamented the "Islamisation of France".

[Don Quixote]

Wow. He didn't read my post at all!

I'll say it again -- IF PRESENT TRENDS CONTINUE, then we may well see the Islamization of parts of western Europe. It's not here yet.

I'm not saying it to be a "fearmonger." Indeed, what if I were to say, "lookout, that car's about to hit you, AHHHH!" am I being a fearmonger? The answer would be, of course not, there's a car about to slam into me.

It's something the West should and ought to be concerned about. Also, there appears to be a backlash against the growing Islamic population in Europe. What is not yet clear is if Europe will be able to either stop it, or force the Moslems to respect European culture and laws. That's where I am skeptical.

Another great blog on Islam ...

http://islamdom.blogspot.com

By my friend "abu daoud," a Christian missionary somewhere in the Middle East.

[Don Quixote]

A story out of England.

ENGLAND: 'No more mosques' says Synod member
Alison Ruoff claims that building mega-mosques could help turn Britian into an Islamic state

by Ruth Gledhill
From Times Online
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle3662450.ece
April 1, 2008

A prominent evangelical member of the Church of England's General Synod has called for a ban on the building of any more mosques in Britain.

Alison Ruoff also claimed that Sharia law is inevitable in this country if mosques continue to be built here.

Mrs Ruoff, a former magistrate, said in an interview with London's Premier Christian Radio that no more mosques should be built in Britain until all persecution of Christians in Muslim nations had ceased.

She said: "No more mosques in the UK. We are constantly building new mosques, which are paid for by the money that comes from oil states.

"We have only in this country as far as we know, 3.5 to four million Muslims. There are enough mosques for Muslims in this country, they don't need anymore.

"We don't need to have Sharia law which would come with more mosques imposed upon our nation, if we don't watch out, that would happen. If we want to become an Islamic state, this is the way to go.

"You build a mosque and then what happens? You have Muslim people moving into that area, all the shops will then become Islamic, all the housing will then become Islamic and as the Bishop of Rochester has so wisely pointed out, that will be a no-go area for anyone else.

"They will bring in Islamic law. We cannot allow that to happen."

Dr Michael Nazir-Ali enraged the Muslim community and received death threats against his family when he warned recently that parts of Britain had become no-go areas for non-Muslims.

The subsequent controversial speech on Islamic law by the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, coincided with a concern among many of the Church's other bishops to mollify Britain's Muslims in the wake of Dr Nazir-Ali's comments. [...]