Game Thoughts: Spurs @ Hornets Game 1

[polandprzem]

whottt you want to double team West but who you want to do it with?

The spurs are slow enough to let Mo Pete, Peja or Pargo have wide open opurtunity to make baskets of jumpshots. And Scott can make the spurs double him with Finley who is not that great in rotation D

[timvp]

I don't agree with that at all...Dirk is a of a lot faster, better jump shooter, and better dribbler than West. He's also a of a lot longer. Dirk is a freaking 2 guard in a 7 foot body...David West is not.

You can switch a point guard off on Dirk. , AJ used to be able to shut Dirk down. West has scored every time the Spurs end up with a PG on him.

That's not really true...Paul can be defended with one man, Harris, Terry and Stack require 3 men to defend them. If Paul was playing 1 on 3 against Terry, Stack and Harris would you expect him to beat them? A similar principle applies here.

Paul and two random bench players for the Hornets are better than Harris, Terry and Stack. WTF? You don't think the Mavs would trade their entire roster outside of Dirk for Paul? they might even throw in Dirk . . .

Ime Udoka was revealed early on this season to be the Bonzi solution...am I the only one that remembers this?

Udoka has had more failure than success this season in defending physical small forwards.

1-4 maybe...but not 1-9...and not at the guard spots.

Paul, Peterson, Pargo > Harris, Terry and Stack

That's not true...they had guys that had been defacto franchise players coming off their bench..the Mavs were deeper...especially with ball handlers.

ROFL @ calling Stack and KVH defacto franchise players.

Like I said...West isn't near as fluid as Dirk is. He's not a big 2 guard like Dirk.

Dirk being a big two guard also made him guardable in some situations. West is more like a giant small forward with a power forward's body.

Peja had some dominant playoff games...


Here's the deal with Peja...when his team is playing well? He'll play well...when his team is faltering? He will be leading the faltering...Peja never steps up when his team is going badly. You start beating the Hornets...you will beat Peja.

Again, I hope you are right. But even back when he was in his prime, the Spurs could own his azz. He'd never look to score on the Spurs unless he was wide open. Now he takes and makes contested shots. Part of the difference is having Bibby as your PG and having CP3 as your PG.

Looks...you guys are sitting here saying no one can guard West...and then you keep trying to think of players that we can put on him. You are pointing out the problem with him but then you keep trying the same solution..when the answer is, he's the one you double.

You double West, he passes it to Paul who then destroys the Spurs are they rotate back into position. I think the best idea on West is to run him off his jumper and hope Tim can meet him at the rim.

[timvp]

You know a better comparison for this Hornets team is the 2004 Spurs...with Paul and West being Parker and Duncan and with the Parker and Duncan positions of dominance being switched. I'm not saying these guys have the exact same moves or anything...but the way to beat them is similar.

If you remember...Phil Jackson doubled both Tim(after he got the ball) and Tony...but Tony proved to be the weak link due to inexperience....

So basically a similar philosphy that was used to beat the 2004 Spurs can be used to beat these Hornets.

David West is the 2004 Tony Parker of this Hornets team...you double him after he gets the ball and he will not be able to handle it. You double on him with a ball hawk like Manu or perhaps Parker and let them go for steals.

Chris Paul is the 2004 Tim Duncan...while Duncan was doubled pretty effectively, I would not even attempt it with Paul...leave him to Bruce and let Bruce wear him down.


That's how you beat this Hornets team...trust me, Peja is not going to lift his team up from a collapse...do not waste Bruce on him.

The Hornets have Hedo on their team?

[Quasar]

For those who didn't watch the game like me and thought it was a total slaughter in the second half, here are some interesting figures:

Spurs were down 80-88 with 5:12 remaining on a Finley 3pt Shot, assist by Parker.

Even with 2:54 remaining, a Ginobili Driving Layup Shot still kept them within 10 pts... [SAS 82-92]. They were in a similar position against the Suns in game 1, except the Spurs totally folded in this game.

The Spurs went scoreless after this final basket by Manu... Parker turned the ball over twice after that on steals by Paul followed by Pargo. On the other end, Paul and West scored on a jump shot and a dunk, respectively. That's probably where the tide turned. Pop gave up after this by trotting out the "Giant Killer" line up with NOH winning at 97-82:

Bowen Foul:Shooting (4 PF) 1:47
Bowen Subs ution replaced by Udoka 1:47
Duncan Subs ution replaced by Oberto 1:47
Parker Subs ution replaced by Vaughn 1:47
Ginobili Subs ution replaced by Barry 1:47
Finley Subs ution replaced by Stoudamire 1:47

[blizz]

For those who didn't watch the game like me and thought it was a total slaughter in the second half, here are some interesting figures:

Spurs were down 80-88 with 5:12 remaining on a Finley 3pt Shot, assist by Parker.

Even with 2:54 remaining, a Ginobili Driving Layup Shot still kept them within 10 pts... [SAS 82-92]. They were in a similar position against the Suns in game 1, except the Spurs totally folded in this game.

The Spurs went scoreless after this final basket by Manu... Parker turned the ball over twice after that on steals by Paul followed by Pargo. On the other end, Paul and West scored on a jump shot and a dunk, respectively. THat's probably where the tide turned. Pop gave up after this by trotting out the Giant Killer line up:

Bowen Foul:Shooting (4 PF) 1:47
Bowen Subs ution replaced by Udoka 1:47
Duncan Subs ution replaced by Oberto 1:47
Parker Subs ution replaced by Vaughn 1:47
Ginobili Subs ution replaced by Barry 1:47
Finley Subs ution replaced by Stoudamire 1:47

Great post. This is exactly what I was talking about...we were totally in it then the w s fell off. An adjustment or two and we hit some shots and we'll be fine. I'd be worried if I was a Hornets fan. We ALL know the Spurs get MAD after a game like this and come out swinging.

[Quasar]

The Hornets have Hedo on their team?

Hedo = Peja?

[timvp]

Hedo = Peja?

You give modern-day Peja the looks Hedo got in that series and Peja will average 40.

[blizz]

Hedo is better right now IMO.

[blizz]

TIMVP...you have a good basketball mind...I'd love to sit at a bar with you getting toasted talking basketball.

[Capt Bringdown]

Overall, this was a very disappointing loss and the worst part is that some of the problems don’t seem to be easily correctable.

Ouch. There you have it.
Thinking about the game, and what we can do to improve, I'm kinda drawing a blank.

[polandprzem]

TIMVP...you have a good basketball mind...I'd love to sit at a bar with you getting me toasts in basketball shape.

figzed

[whottt]

You can switch a point guard off on Dirk. , AJ used to be able to shut Dirk down. West has scored every time the Spurs end up with a PG on him.

Right...I agree that Dirk and West are not similar players at all.

Paul and two random bench players for the Hornets are better than Harris, Terry and Stack.

No..I don't think so. You can't put Bruce Bowen on Devin Harris, Stack and Terry at the same time...you can put him on Chris Paul at the same time.

WTF? You don't think the Mavs would trade their entire roster outside of Dirk for Paul? they might even throw in Dirk . . .

You are talking about player value...totally different wavelength than I am on...

I am sure some teams would trade their entire rosters for Lebron...that doesn't mean LeBeon could beat that team by himself...one guy Vs multiple guys...never bet on the one guy in a fight.


Completely different wavelength...

Udoka has had more failure than success this season in defending physical small forwards.

He defended Bonzie well...on more than one occasion, I remember making note of it.

Paul, Peterson, Pargo > Harris, Terry and Stack

Take Paul out of the equation...are Peterson or Pargo better than any one of Terry, Harris or Stack? I'm sorry but they aren't.

ROFL @ calling Stack and KVH defacto franchise players.

I'm not...I'm calling Stack and Terry defacto franchise players....in Terry's case a ty franchice

Dog Stack all you want, he's been the best player on a playoff team and division winner before...and he's been a Spur killer(except when he's taking the last shot).

Dirk being a big two guard also made him guardable in some situations.

Right...unfortunately none of those situations are one on one with a big(unless that big is flat out willing to plant him on his ass like Shaq and Zo were).

West is more like a giant small forward with a power forward's body.

I agree...he's more like Tim Duncan than he is Dirk.

Again, I hope you are right. But even back when he was in his prime, the Spurs could own his azz. He'd never look to score on the Spurs unless he was wide open. Now he takes and makes contested shots. Part of the difference is having Bibby as your PG and having CP3 as your PG.

He always made contested shots against everyone....except when his team was getting beaten..

You double West, he passes it to Paul

Who has Bowen on him....and what makes you think West is such a great passer anyway? Totally different animal being asked to make passes under intense doubling...

who then destroys the Spurs are they rotate back into position.

He didn't Destroy Bruce tonight...he destroyed everyone else. The concept is forcing West to miss a shot or turn it over...


The Hornets run the offense through West at times, that's when you double him.

I think the best idea on West is to run him off his jumper and hope Tim can meet him at the rim.

Tim Duncan's man on man defense is over-rated...always has been. I've never seen him as a shutdown defender against a great PF...it won't have the impact people think it will...doubling West and destroying his confidence will have an impact though.

David West was way too comfortable tonight.

[blizz]

figzed

lol that was hilarious...you made me go back to make sure i didn't say that.

[Capt Bringdown]

The Spurs looked like a team that are capable of beating the Suns and the Mavs...

Problem is, somebody moved the cheese, and it's about going thru the Hornets and Lakers this year.

[m33p0]

spurs failed to get duncan involved. they didn't do anything to beat the double team. they could have reposted duncan or swinging the ball to the weakside to catch the defense off-guard. the spurs looked flat and the passing was limp.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

I just came back from a heavy drinking night and other activities

Just checked the boxscore (left home before game started).

Spurs will pwn noob NO Homeless

Sod off, troll wankers from the Suns, Mavs, Fakers and so on...

Spurs in 6

Adios.

Damn, short reply, took like a lot of time and edits to get it done.

Gonna be ours, es!

[timvp]

I'm not...I'm calling Stack and Terry defacto franchise players....in Terry's case a ty franchice

Jason Terry started every game for the Mavericks in the 2006 season. Try again.

Dog Stack all you want, he's been the best player on a playoff team and division winner before...and he's been a Spur killer(except when he's taking the last shot).

Stackhouse is Antoine Walker if Antoine Walker was only good against the Spurs.

The Hornets run the offense through West at times, that's when you double him.

Doubling him I think has to be a last resort. Who are you going to leave? Peja? Mo Pete? Chandler? Yeah leave anyone and their shooting is too good. I'd rather West take contested shots than to let them get hot from beyond the arc.

Tim Duncan's man on man defense is over-rated...always has been. I've never seen him as a shutdown defender against a great PF...it won't have the impact people think it will...doubling West and destroying his confidence will have an impact though.

Read what I said again. I'm not saying use Duncan on West ... I'm saying use Duncan as a help defender at the rim. Run West off his shot and then hope Duncan can bother his shots near the basket. However, the problem with that logic is that West has a good midrange game so he'd likely just pull up from five feet away before Duncan can come over.

Regarding West, I think he's good but he's not great. The problem is the Spurs don't have anyone to guard him. The Mavs had their best success when they put Devean George on him. The Spurs don't have that Long Three to put on him.

For example, if the Hornets beat the Spurs and then face the Lakers, West won't be nearly as dangerous because they can put Odom on him. West is damn good but he's made into a great player against the Spurs because they don't have the personnel.

The Spurs have to figure out a way to overcome that.

[whottt]

Jason Terry started every game for the Mavericks in the 2006 season. Try again.

Try again what? He's not quite a superstar but he's capable smoking most Spurs defenders asses one on one. And he was a defacto franchise player for the Hawks...and you want to keep mentioning 2006 and the role he played then, neglecting to mention that Terry has given us just as much trouble, if not more, since becoming a bench player for the Mavs.

Stackhouse is Antoine Walker if Antoine Walker was only good against the Spurs.

I'd take Stackhouse over Antonie Walker 100 times out a 100.

Doubling him I think has to be a last resort. Who are you going to leave? Peja? Mo Pete? Chandler? Yeah leave anyone and their shooting is too good. I'd rather West take contested shots than to let them get hot from beyond the arc.

You double after he's got the ball and he's making his move...not before.

And you double off of Peja or Mo Pete with Parker or Manu...you double with the small.

Read what I said again. I'm not saying use Duncan on West ... I'm saying use Duncan as a help defender at the rim. Run West off his shot and then hope Duncan can bother his shots near the basket. However, the problem with that logic is that West has a good midrange game so he'd likely just pull up from five feet away before Duncan can come over.

Regarding West, I think he's good but he's not great. The problem is the Spurs don't have anyone to guard him. The Mavs had their best success when they put Devean George on him. The Spurs don't have that Long Three to put on him.

He's not that fast...he's got some nice moves that allow him to make some of our guys look foolish...but it's not like when they try to guard Dirk and it's an automatic foul.

For example, if the Hornets beat the Spurs and then face the Lakers, West won't be nearly as dangerous because they can put Odom on him. West is damn good but he's made into a great player against the Spurs because they don't have the personnel.

The Spurs have to figure out a way to overcome that.

Should the Spurs lose and the Hornets wind up meeting the Lakers...I gurantee you that if West has games like he had tonight against Phil, Phil will double him off of Peja or Mo Pete.

[timvp]

That's not true...they had guys that had been defacto franchise players coming off their bench..the Mavs were deeper...especially with ball handlers.

ROFL @ calling Stack and KVH defacto franchise players.

I'm not...I'm calling Stack and Terry defacto franchise players

Jason Terry started every game for the Mavericks in the 2006 season. Try again.

Try again what?

[Kori Ellis]

Okay, I hate to break up the little Whottt vs timvp love affair. But I want to go to bed... so shutup til tomorrow. Thanks

[timaios]

Somebody please explain to me the math behind Pop taking Manu out after 1 minute of play following a 20 minute rest period??? ed with Manu's rythm much??

Pop

[Johnnysee]

Flawed logic there timvp. ALL superstars MUST experience what losing in the playoffs feels like at least once. Jordan,Kobe,Duncan,etc etc. Chris Paul isnt avoiding this either. He will suffer elimination in the playoffs this year.

You seriously just said that? Please stop yapping. ing idiot.

[Johnnysee]

Win or lose this is it for the Spurs championship success. It all goes downhill for them after this season. So they need to turn this around because this is the final chapter of their championship era.

[whottt]

The point is...Terry's a bench player now, he was a bench player for part of the era where the Mavs had our number..so that means, he's a bench player. Just like Stack...and Harris(was at one point)...

It wasn't like he was particularly better in 06...so he's a bench player...but an effective one nontheless.

You act like the Mavs only gave us trouble in 06....they gave us trouble in 06, all of last season, and this season(up until the Kidd trade) long after Terry had become a bench player. If anything Terry has given us more troublle since moving to the bench.


Point is...
while none of them are Chris freaking Paul...at the same, time, Chris Paul can't iso 3 men...whereas they could. Chris Paul can be defended with Bruce Bowen at one time..whereas those 3 coluldn't.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Pop

Pop coulda coached a better game, but I think they'll figure out what went wrong before Monday.