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  1. #26
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    Pretty close. There is a minority of scholars who think that Matthew had an Aramaic original. But you're right about the oral beginnings of at least the Gospels. The accounts of the life of Jesus circulated through the community, and they were eventually written down in Greek between about 57 for Mark up to about 80 for John, give or take. So, it wasn't exactly many, many years. It took the first generation of Christ-followers to begin to die off, and the need for a written standard, for the Gospels to be written down.

    As for the Letters, we can be pretty sure they were originally in Greek. Overall, though, our modern translations are exceptionally good and faithful attempts to accurately convey what the extant manuscripts say (we no longer have the originals -- wish we did).
    I understand that the argument for an Aramaic original for Matthew comes from a fragmentary reference by Papias. He says that Matthew wrote a gospel in Aramaic and that Papias and the other Greek-speakers do their best to struggle through it.

    However, the text we have as the Gospel of Matthew does have some features inconsistent with an Aramaic original. One, it is Synoptic, and since Q has never bothered to demonstrate its existence in the manuscript evidence, the best hypothesis we have to go on now is Markan priority. Two, the text includes a stylistic feature on a couple of instances whereby it transliterates a word or phrase directly from Aramaic, and then explains the meaning to the Greek reader. Based upon these, I find it unlikely that the Gospel of Matthew we have is the one Papias was writing about.

    Naturally, the actual sayings came out of Jesus' mouth in Aramaic. I remember reading a debate between Ben Witherington and some Reformed guy about the proper way to render the Aramaic behind the Greek in Jesus' words. BW3, who usually is unassailable in his reasoning, here tried to argue that we should assume the Gospel writers used a formal-equivalence translation of Jesus' literal words into Greek, and therefore we should reconstruct Aramaic verb forms within that paradigm (this was specifically applied to Jesus' discourse to Peter about binding and loosing things in earth and in heaven). The Reformed guy rightly pointed out that doing exegesis based upon such a speculative assumption as Mark's translation philosophy is utterly spurious.

    But this does bring up a question in my mind regarding verbal plenary inspiration. Which is moreso the inspired inerrant Word of God, the verbal Aramaic words coming off the lips of the Son of God, the Word made flesh, or their translation, literal, dynamic, or whatever else, into Greek in the original autographs of the New Testament?

  2. #27
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    My best guess:

    A mistranslation for the word "hate".

    The larger passage concerned Jesus telling his followers that they had to be ready to give up everything worldly to be a disciple and devote themselves to God exclusively above all other conerns.

    Insert the words "give up" or "forsake", and the passage fits into the greater chapter a bit more smoothly.
    It's not a mistranslation; it is Semitic hyperbole.

    Within a Western nation steeped in centuries of Christian cultural veneer, perhaps it is harder to understand this, so instead imagine a Muslim nation. Let's say a woman hears the gospel and believes, and becomes a Christian. According to Islam, she is an apostate. Her family must reject her and cut her off. She literally has to choose between Jesus Christ and her family.

    In the early days of Christianity, it was much the same way for some Jews who believed the gospel. Faith had a real cost. That's why there weren't a lot of pew-sitters in the early church (that, and also because there were no pews back then).

  3. #28
    ATRAIN is gay peewee's lovechild's Avatar
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    (that, and also because there were no pews back then).

  4. #29
    Too weird to live, and too rare to die. midgetonadonkey's Avatar
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    Every word of the Bible came from the mouth of God into the author's ear. So every word must be taken literally. If you question the word of God then you question God and ye shall be damned to eternal fire.

  5. #30
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    Every word of the Bible came from the mouth of God into the author's ear. So every word must be taken literally. If you question the word of God then you question God and ye shall be damned to eternal fire.
    So, Reverend, what should I make of the whole "easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" thing, and your 5000-square foot mansion the church bought you, along with the two Bentleys?

  6. #31
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    It's not a mistranslation; it is Semitic hyperbole.

    Within a Western nation steeped in centuries of Christian cultural veneer, perhaps it is harder to understand this, so instead imagine a Muslim nation. Let's say a woman hears the gospel and believes, and becomes a Christian. According to Islam, she is an apostate. Her family must reject her and cut her off. She literally has to choose between Jesus Christ and her family.

    In the early days of Christianity, it was much the same way for some Jews who believed the gospel. Faith had a real cost. That's why there weren't a lot of pew-sitters in the early church (that, and also because there were no pews back then).
    That sounds as good as any explanation 2000+ years after the event.

    Having a degree in a foreign language gives me some interesting perspective on this, because there are some instances where one can perfectly translate a particular turn of phrase linguistically, but miss the added dimension of cultural translation.

    This is one of those cases where the missing bit is indeed, as you point out, cultural. Translation is truly an art form.

  7. #32
    Too weird to live, and too rare to die. midgetonadonkey's Avatar
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    So, Reverend, what should I make of the whole "easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" thing, and your 5000-square foot mansion the church bought you, along with the two Bentleys?
    It is not I who am rich but the church. I simply live how the church would want me to live.

  8. #33
    Veteran to21's Avatar
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    My favorite bible quote:

    Ezekiel 25:17. "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."


  9. #34
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    My favorite bible quote:

    Ezekiel 25:17. "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."

    Only the parts in bold are even related to the actual verse. The rest is from the annotated Quentin Tarantino Version.

  10. #35
    What's the Word? Don Quixote's Avatar
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    I like Tarantino's reading of Ezek 25:17, myself. I didn't know he had a background in Old Testament and Hebrew.

  11. #36
    What's the Word? Don Quixote's Avatar
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    That line of satire fails to take into account what the Bible itself says about the applicability of Old Testament law to Christians. Now, granted, this is because there are a fair number of fundamentalists who don't understand the applicability of Old Testament law to the New Testament and just go hunting for a proof-text instead.
    The cults are very good at this too. Whether it's the Mormons reviving the Old Testament priesthood (or trying to), or the Jehovahs not letting their members get blood transfusions (they used to be against organ donation, not they're okay with it), or even liberal groups, there seems to be a lack of understanding on how to correctly integrate the Old Testament law into today's ethic.

    It's just much easier to proof-text.

  12. #37
    What's the Word? Don Quixote's Avatar
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    I understand that the argument for an Aramaic original for Matthew comes from a fragmentary reference by Papias. He says that Matthew wrote a gospel in Aramaic and that Papias and the other Greek-speakers do their best to struggle through it.

    However, the text we have as the Gospel of Matthew does have some features inconsistent with an Aramaic original. One, it is Synoptic, and since Q has never bothered to demonstrate its existence in the manuscript evidence, the best hypothesis we have to go on now is Markan priority. Two, the text includes a stylistic feature on a couple of instances whereby it transliterates a word or phrase directly from Aramaic, and then explains the meaning to the Greek reader. Based upon these, I find it unlikely that the Gospel of Matthew we have is the one Papias was writing about.

    Naturally, the actual sayings came out of Jesus' mouth in Aramaic. I remember reading a debate between Ben Witherington and some Reformed guy about the proper way to render the Aramaic behind the Greek in Jesus' words. BW3, who usually is unassailable in his reasoning, here tried to argue that we should assume the Gospel writers used a formal-equivalence translation of Jesus' literal words into Greek, and therefore we should reconstruct Aramaic verb forms within that paradigm (this was specifically applied to Jesus' discourse to Peter about binding and loosing things in earth and in heaven). The Reformed guy rightly pointed out that doing exegesis based upon such a speculative assumption as Mark's translation philosophy is utterly spurious.

    But this does bring up a question in my mind regarding verbal plenary inspiration. Which is moreso the inspired inerrant Word of God, the verbal Aramaic words coming off the lips of the Son of God, the Word made flesh, or their translation, literal, dynamic, or whatever else, into Greek in the original autographs of the New Testament?
    Good question. I lean toward the latter, that the Word of God is inspired, at least in the original autographs. Of course, the words that Jesus spoke that ended up in the Gospels were inspired as they left his lips, but there was a stage of "oral memory" among the community of faith before the words began to hit paper. And really, the written word, is all we have access to today. We can't go back in time and hear Jesus' words. All we have is the manuscripts (not even the autographs!) that are probably really close to the originals.

  13. #38
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    Good question. I lean toward the latter, that the Word of God is inspired, at least in the original autographs. Of course, the words that Jesus spoke that ended up in the Gospels were inspired as they left his lips, but there was a stage of "oral memory" among the community of faith before the words began to hit paper. And really, the written word, is all we have access to today. We can't go back in time and hear Jesus' words. All we have is the manuscripts (not even the autographs!) that are probably really close to the originals.
    So do we just have to assume that the spoken Aramaic and the written Greek are in perfect agreement in their transmission of ideas?

  14. #39
    What's the Word? Don Quixote's Avatar
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    At least in the transmission of ideas, yes. I didn't mean to imply that the EXACT Aramaic words of Jesus were the EXACT Greek words that ended up in the autographs, which were preserved exactly in the 3d and 4th century manuscripts. I hold to verbal inspiration, not dictation.

  15. #40
    What's the Word? Don Quixote's Avatar
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    If you have a better idea, or a tape recorder of Jesus' words, I'm all ears!

  16. #41
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple"

    Luke 14:26

    Please explain
    This is simple to me. The greek word translated to hate in the Bible also means "less love." I see this passage as meaning that those who have no hatred in their heart, and love everyone, have no need for Jesus' salvation. They are already saved!

    Now how many people don't have complete love for everyone else in this world?

  17. #42
    What's the Word? Don Quixote's Avatar
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    This is simple to me. The greek word translated to hate in the Bible also means "less love." I see this passage as meaning that those who have no hatred in their heart, and love everyone, have no need for Jesus' salvation. They are already saved!

    Now how many people don't have complete love for everyone else in this world?
    Every last one of us, you and me included. None of us love others completely.

    And there are other sins besides hate! But none of us are without sin. The man who thinks he is, is wrong. Myself included.

    Jesus drew a very stark line in his sayings. While other systems (communism, fascism, liberalism) draw lines along ones socio-economic status, one's "background," orientation, or occupation, Christ draws that line between good and evil right through our hearts. It's us who are the problem, it's us who have screwed it all up, and it's us who need Him to save us.

    So ... I guess you're right in your interpretation. But absolutely none of us is perfect. We all need his grace. And he gives it freely. all we have to do is ask. Doesn't that feel good?

    Okay, preaching over

  18. #43
    ATRAIN is gay peewee's lovechild's Avatar
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    I like how Don Quixote is such an expert, due to him knowing Hebrew and all that.

    I'm sure Hebrew hasn't changed at all and that people can read and translate Hebrew with 100% accuracy.

    Even the Israelies, whose official language is Hebrew, can fully understand ancient Hebrew.

    I wonder if DQ is cir sized.

    He must be a hit with the ladies.

  19. #44
    ATRAIN is gay peewee's lovechild's Avatar
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    A guy who has cigarettes and malt liquor in his avatar just screams of spirituality and morality.

    God must be proud of his little soldier.

  20. #45
    Spur-taaaa TDMVPDPOY's Avatar
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    so with the new edition

    are they going to change adam and eve

    to

    adam and steve?

  21. #46
    Veteran to21's Avatar
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    Only the parts in bold are even related to the actual verse. The rest is from the annotated Quentin Tarantino Version.
    Wow.........really I didn't know that.

    /sarcasm

  22. #47
    I love J.T. smeagol's Avatar
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    How about you work on mastering popular cliches before stepping up to interpreting the bible.
    What he really meant is that it opened some eyebrows . . .

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