Top 30 NBA Spurs (Updated every Sunday)

[FromWayDowntown]

In anticipation of the revelation of #3 tomorrow, does anyone think that either Duncan or Robinson will be #3?

Or is the consensus that the Iceman is #3 and the Twin Towers will be #1 and #2?

[whottt]

In anticipation of the revelation of #3 tomorrow, does anyone think that either Duncan or Robinson will be #3?

Duncan might be...or he might be #1.

Or is the consensus that the Iceman is #3 and the Twin Towers will be #1 and #2?

Probably.

It'll probably be:

1.Duncan
2.Robinson
3.Gervin


I won't really agree with that wholeheartedly, because I don't really think Duncan has done enough to be put ahead of DRob...but a lot of people count finals mvp's as everything, and at the same time it isn't a ridiculous sentiment to rank Duncan #1, he certainly has a legitimate case for it....as do both Gervin and Robinson.


I don't see DRob being lower than #2 in any scenario.

[FromWayDowntown]

I agree with whottt all the way around -- edit: I do think Duncan has earned #1.

But, it turns out that Ice is #3, as expected:

The Top 30 NBA Spurs: No. 3 - George Gervin

George Gervin, 1974-85: When the Spurs entered the NBA in 1976, George Gervin and guard James Silas were the team's undisputed stars, but Gervin gave the team its iden y through its first 10 seasons in the league. Known throughout the basketball world, then and now, as "Ice," Gervin led the league in scoring four times, including three consecutive seasons, in 1977-78 (27.2 points per game), 1978-79 (29.6) and 1979-80 (33.1). After finishing second in 1980-81, he regained the scoring le in 1981-82 (32.1).

A unique player with a unique style, Gervin created his own shot in almost any cir stance. Rail-thin, he could run forever without losing a step. His scoring moves were creative and legendary. He was the master of the finger roll, his signature shot.

Gervin appeared in nine NBA All-Star Games and was named MVP of the 1980 game. He still holds the NBA record for points in one quarter (33), scored in the second quarter of the 1977-78 regular-season finale against the New Orleans Jazz, when his 63 points moved him past Denver's David Thompson for that season's scoring le.

Gervin was inducted in the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame in 1996, the only Spur in the Hall. The club retired his No. 44 on March 20, 1998.

Clearly, "Ice" could do a lot more than finger roll.

[timvp]

I don't really think Duncan has done enough to be put ahead of DRob

X 1000

Duncan is the best ever at his position. He retires now, he goes down as a top 5, 6, 7 player of all-time.

Robinson was damn good, but even ultimate, blockhead homers have a tough time putting him in the top 10 ever.

[exstatic]

I won't really agree with that wholeheartedly, because I don't really think Duncan has done enough to be put ahead of DRob...but a lot of people count finals mvp's as everything

It's not just the Finals MVPs. His overall playoff numbers top David's: more points (600) and rebounds (198) in a handful fewer games (T118/D123). Tim is a playoff stud, and his regular season numbers are on track to pass David's as well, although he isn't there yet.

[whottt]

X 1000

Duncan is the best ever at his position. He retires now, he goes down as a top 5, 6, 7 player of all-time.

Robinson was damn good, but even ultimate, blockhead homers have a tough time putting him in the top 10 ever.

Center position>>>>PF position

I just have a hard time finding things Duncan actually does better than Drob did. He's got that bankshot...but he doesn't shoot usually at a great PCT, and he's a bad FT shooter.


DRob better defender...and his scoring is under-rated.


Duncan's playoff numbers are inferior to Drob's regular season numbers too...



Nah...I don't think it's a huge travesty to put Drob over Duncan. In fact I still think it's the right thing to do...even though it probably won't happem.

[Nikos]

It does seem that David Robinson was the superior regular season player. He was simply more impressive statistically in pretty much every aspect of the game. And even by the naked eye David was more athletic and a better defender. But Duncan clearly had a better back to the basket game. For whatever reason Duncan usually played well in the playoffs and Drob didn't. Maybe Drob was unlucky, and had bad teamattes -- but it does seem a little strange that he never really played up to expecations in any of the playoffs before Duncan came along.

Duncan seemed to be the superior playoff performer. But in the regular season, I would say David was the superior player in his prime years vs Tim's prime years.

[exstatic]

Duncan's playoff numbers are inferior to Drob's regular season numbers too...

THAT is what you call working the numbers. How can you even compare those? It makes no sense.

[whottt]

It makes a lot of sense when you consider the fact that Drob won an IBM award every year but 2 of his prime....

His regular season numbers were the best in the league...there was no place for them to go put down.



Sorry but Drob's offense is inaccurately described as weak...

He was pretty damn good on offense...at gettiing to the line...and at making those FT's.


Duncan's FT shooting nearly cost us our last le.....it put us in a hole in 03.


His FG% isn't as good as DRob's as it is...prior to this season Duncan had a sub 50% career FG%.


Sorry but the case for putting Duncan ahead of Robinson is based entirely on intangibles and subjective opinion....statistically David was the superior player. Offensively, and defensively. He also played his entire career with the Spurs and made sacrifices Duncan woluld have never made.

Duncan would have been long gone if not for Drob...and he still might be.



Duncan's had one coach his entire career and talented and experienced supporting casts...


And when he hasn't had those...he's gotten his ass kicked worse than Drob ever did( see 2001).




How come 95 playoffs are always used against Drob but the 01 playoffs are never used against Duncan? 01 was a worse ass kicking.

[exstatic]

Duncan's playoff numbers are inferior to Drob's regular season numbers too...

RIF. Apples and oranges, or were you aware that you typed this?

As for 2001? David was there, too.

The one separator to me is this: David never won without Tim. Tim, however, won without David.

[whottt]

As you guys count your rings and pat yourselves on the back for realizing it's all about the chamionships...just remember...

If Drob had been about championships the first thing he would have done was tell this podunk small market cheap team to go itself....

If he's been all about glory he wouldn't have ceded to Duncan...and Duncan likely would have been gone anyway.

[whottt]

RIF. Apples and oranges, or were you aware that you typed this?

As for 2001? David was there, too.

Oh wait...all of a sudden David counts when Duncan loses?



Be glad David was there....if he hadn't been guarding Shaq and holding him to his playoff lows that series would have been even uglier.


Be glad Duncan wasn't having to guard Shaq....because he's never been able to do it.

The one separator to me is this: David never won without Tim. Tim, however, won without David.

Duncan was shooting us out of game 5...Horry saved his ass, just like he did for Shaq and Hakeem...

[Nikos]

It makes a lot of sense when you consider the fact that Drob won an IBM award every year but 2 of his prime....

His regular season numbers were the best in the league...there was no place for them to go put down.



Sorry but Drob's offense is inaccurately described as weak...

He was pretty damn good on offense...at gettiing to the line...and at making those FT's.


Duncan's FT shooting nearly cost us our last le.....it put us in a hole in 03.


His FG% isn't as good as DRob's as it is...prior to this season Duncan had a sub 50% career FG%.


Sorry but the case for putting Duncan ahead of Robinson is based entirely on intangibles and subjective opinion....statistically David was the superior player. Offensively, and defensively. He also played his entire career with the Spurs and made sacrifices Duncan woluld have never made.

Duncan would have been long gone if not for Drob...and he still might be.



Duncan's had one coach his entire career and talented and experienced supporting casts...


And when he hasn't had those...he's gotten his ass kicked worse than Drob ever did( see 2001).




How come 95 playoffs are always used against Drob but the 01 playoffs are never used against Duncan? 01 was a worse ass kicking.

Well for one thing David Robinson was actually a part of the 2001 ass receiving, yeah he showed up in one game the Spurs lost and where Duncan played bad -- but they did get swept, and Drob didn't do much himself to change that. Not having Derek Anderson didn't help either.

Keep in mind in 2002 Duncan didn't even really have David Robinson and he did pretty damn good against the champs in that series. Statistically he played like a monster despite having very little offensive help....Antonio Daniels and Malik Rose were the best offensive players he had as support. Duncan still put up numbers that were pretty much better than either Kobe or Shaq.

Duncan more love than Drob not only because he was the best player on all the championship teams but also that he repeatedly exceeded expectations from an individual basketball perspective (at least statistically) in several of his playoff runs. Many of his playoffs were as good or better than his already superstar regular season performances. Now I am not suggestion Duncan was or is perfect, he has had his share of bad performances -- but he has also had performances where he did extremely well in victories as well as defeats.

David in his prime never really exceeded his own expectations, and actually played noticably worse in the regular season than in the playoffs. Call it luck, distort his statistics, but he didn't play well in pretty much any of his playoff prime years. Maybe he did have bad teamattes, played against better competetion than Duncan, etc....But he never once seemed to play at the superstar level he set in the regular season as the unquestioned best player of his team. This is why many will give Duncan the edge.

Personally I don't know how to evaluate someone like Drob. FWDT seems to have the most knowledge of David and why he did not succeed in the playoffs. But he hasn't really mentioned who he feels is better and why -- and how to compare these two guys who had such different supporting casts, and results as leaders of their teams in their respective primes.

To me David was the superior regular season player in his absolute prime (1994-1996). And he was better on defense, and likely better on offense by a noticable margin.

But for some reason Duncan was better in the playoffs.......

[whottt]

The only thing Duncan has that DAvid didn't was Robert Horry...and Mario Elie....and Steve Kerr...


How many rings did those guys win without Duncan? Does that mean they're better?

[Nikos]

The question is why did Duncan seem to play like a beast against the Lakers in 2002 without Horry, Elie or Kerr? When did David play dominant in a series in which his team lost between 1994-96 -- his prime? His teams underachieved in the playoffs, and so did he statistically. Why couldn't he have at least one good series (by his standards) when his team lost a series? If David was good in the regular season why couldn't he perform that way in the playoffs, even when his teamattes weren't playing well or very talented (like Duncan in 2002, maybe even 2003)?

[whottt]

Well for one thing David Robinson was actually a part of the 2001 ass receiving, yeah he showed up in one game the Spurs lost and where Duncan played bad -- but they did get swept, and Drob didn't do much himself to change that. Not having Derek Anderson didn't help either.

Um...you do realize that Duncan was entirely the focal point of the offense by that point right?


David was little more than a garbage man...

Keep in mind in 2002 Duncan didn't even really have David Robinson and he did pretty damn good against the champs in that series.

Keep in mind that in 1995 David Robinson didn't hav Duncan and he did pretty good against the champs in that series.

Statistically he played like a monster despite having very little offensive help....Antonio Daniels and Malik Rose were the best offensive players he had as support. Duncan still put up numbers that were pretty much better than either Kobe or Shaq.

He also had a game with 10 turnovers....

Duncan more love than Drob not only because he was the best player on all the championship teams but also that he repeatedly exceeded expectations from an individual basketball perspective (at least statistically) in several of his playoff runs.

Helps that he has never had to guard the opponents best post player for anything other than spurts...

It's a real to put up numbers when you got 5 fouls.


Duncan's also lost games at the FT line all by himself...he's also had series where he had games of scoing 5 points and still won...series where he's averaged about 15ppg for the series and still won.


DRob's teams could never have won those types of games.

David in his prime never really exceeded his own expectations, and actually played noticably worse in the regular season than in the playoffs. Call it luck, distort his statistics, but he didn't play well in pretty much any of his playoff prime years. Maybe he did have bad teamattes, played against better competetion than Duncan, etc....But he never once seemed to play at the superstar level he set in the regular season as the unquestioned best player of his team. This is why many will give Duncan the edge.

Personally I don't know how to evaluate someone like Drob. FWDT seems to have the most knowledge of David and why he did not succeed in the playoffs. But he hasn't really mentioned who he feels is better and why -- and how to compare these two guys who had such different supporting casts, and results as leaders of their teams in their respective primes.

To me David was the superior regular season player in his absolute prime (1994-1996). And he was better on defense, and likely better on offense by a noticable margin.

But for some reason Duncan was better in the playoffs.......

Um...Duncan got to pass out of the double to guys like Horry, Kerr, Elie and DRob...not to mentioned Parker and Manu.


Drob was getting to pass it to AJ and Vinny...

How'd Duncan do passing to those two? Utah and out...just like Drob.

[whottt]

I'm glad I know how you 3 feel on this subject...

It's nice to know that at least 3 people(TimVP, Exstatic and Nikos) will never bad mouth a Spurs player again....I mean after all those guys don't matter...Duncan is all that matters.

No more ing about Rasho, or Beno, or any supporting players...because according to your system of ranking...those guys don't matter. Duncan is all that matters, therefore, we should win the le every year and it's his fault if we don't.

Last year...game 7 foul on Dirk? That was Duncan's fault.

Welcome to David Robinson's world...may you handle it as gracefully as he did.

[whottt]

Must be nice to be able to let a player avg 37 points a game against you and still win the series(Amare 05)...that's greatness personified right there.

Drob should have let Hakeem score even more in 95, like Duncan did with Amare in 05...then when might have won...like Duncan did.


And why in the are we paying Manu and Parker so $$ anyway?

FO is stupid...all we need is Duncan.

What was Pop thinking when he brought Bruce in anyway?

ing pussy worrying about Kobe dropping 35 a game on us....doesn't he know we have Duncan and that's all we need?

[whottt]

Chauncey Billups = 1 finals MVP

David Robinson = 0

Chauncey > Drob


Come to think of it...

Chauncey > Wilt too...

[exstatic]

Get off the cross, muther er. Someone else needs the wood. If we think Tim is #1 we hate David? I guess in whott-world we do....

Oh, and way to play the Kerr Horry Mario supporting players with rings card when we are clearly talking about lead dogs.

[Warlord23]

Whott, you're making a point that may be valid but is not really relevant to the point of this thread. Robinson was probably the more gifted player compared to Duncan. He was a rare physical specimen to start with, and has better regular season stats. However, the "greatness" of a player in the context of most player comparisons and indeed this top 30 list is not about who is more talented, but whose body of work is more impressive when all is said and done.

At this point in time, Duncan's body of work outshines Robinson's, and he isn't finished yet. He is universally recognized as a top 3 PF of all time, a top 15 player of all time, a 3-time Finals MVP, and ups his game in the playoffs every year. That counts more than Robinson's achievements.

To put this argument in perspective, compare the body of work of Dominique Wilkins and Scottie Pippen. The latter is included in the 50 greatest players of all time, and his body of work is recognized as far superior ro Nique's. Nique was clearly a way better offensive player, and his stats and talent far outstrip Pip's. Pip was a great perimeter defender, but defense is a team concept, and Pippen was fortunate to play in one of the best defensive teams of all time. Moreover, Scottie was a sidekick, whereas Nique shouldered a bigger load. Maybe Nique's teams were not good enough to give him the opportunity to showcase his ability in playoff situations. But people don't hold the fact against Pippen that he played with the GOAT. Fact is, Pippen got to play 6 NBA Finals and got the opportunity to show his stuff on the biggest stage. We'll never know what Nique would have done if he had been MJ's sidekick, but that doesn't count. You can't play "what if" games when comparing a player's body of work to another. Pippen did what he did, Nique never got the chance. Pippen > Nique.

You can't guess what Robinson would have done with Duncan's teams or vice-versa. Duncan got his chance, and showed his stuff. Robinson didn't, and that's his bad luck. But that doesn't give him any sympathy points.

[whottt]

Whott, you're making a point that may be valid but is not really relevant to the point of this thread. Robinson was probably the more gifted player compared to Duncan. He was a rare physical specimen to start with, and has better regular season stats. However, the "greatness" of a player in the context of most player comparisons and indeed this top 30 list is not about who is more talented, but whose body of work is more impressive when all is said and done.

At this point in time, Duncan's body of work outshines Robinson's, and he isn't finished yet. He is universally recognized as a top 3 PF of all time, a top 15 player of all time, a 3-time Finals MVP, and ups his game in the playoffs every year. That counts more than Robinson's achievements.

To put this argument in perspective, compare the body of work of Dominique Wilkins and Scottie Pippen. The latter is included in the 50 greatest players of all time, and his body of work is recognized as far superior ro Nique's. Nique was clearly a way better offensive player, and his stats and talent far outstrip Pip's. Pip was a great perimeter defender, but defense is a team concept, and Pippen was fortunate to play in one of the best defensive teams of all time. Moreover, Scottie was a sidekick, whereas Nique shouldered a bigger load. Maybe Nique's teams were not good enough to give him the opportunity to showcase his ability in playoff situations. But people don't hold the fact against Pippen that he played with the GOAT. Fact is, Pippen got to play 6 NBA Finals and got the opportunity to show his stuff on the biggest stage. We'll never know what Nique would have done if he had been MJ's sidekick, but that doesn't count. You can't play "what if" games when comparing a player's body of work to another. Pippen did what he did, Nique never got the chance. Pippen > Nique.

You can't guess what Robinson would have done with Duncan's teams or vice-versa. Duncan got his chance, and showed his stuff. Robinson didn't, and that's his bad luck. But that doesn't give him any sympathy points.

Whatever....but the fact is there's no objective criteria with a large sample size you can use to rank Duncan over Robinson...

And that's just talking stats, that's not taking into account the Spurs situation during Drob's career....how much he embodied the Spurs and the city of SA during his career.



Objectively...I win. 100 times out of 100 times.

Subjectively...do what you want....

I just reccomend you state it's subjective otherwis I am going to point out the double standard and contradictory arguments you use when subjectively putting Duncan over Robinson by using team achievments in an argument ovr individual accomplishment...and trying to claim you are being objective.




Or to put it another way...you'd rather have AJ and Vinny over Manu and Parker...or you think they are irrelevant.


That says more about you than it does about me....


Be my guest.

[whottt]

By the way...

TimVP
Exstatic
FWDT

Have you guys been introduced to ArgSpursFan yet?

I think ya'll are related....


Manu = 2 les...1 near finals MVP

Gervin = 0

[v2freak]

You may be overlooking the past a bit. Gervin was unstoppable as a scorer. Put TD in his prime on Gervin's team and they would have combined to become as good as / better than Kobe-Shaq

[whottt]

Get off the cross, muther er. Someone else needs the wood. If we think Tim is #1 we hate David? I guess in whott-world we do....

It's not that you hate David...it's just that the arguments you use are exactly why players are selfish with numbers and who gets all the credit.

The agruments you use exhibit all the insight and knowledge of the Spurs and basketball that you can get in a 5 minute blurb from Greg Simmons on ESPN.


It's a bad argument...and nothing personal, but I am going to expose the contraditory and subjective logic involved...simply because it needs to be.

And because David deserves better.

Oh, and way to play the Kerr Horry Mario supporting players with rings card when we are clearly talking about lead dogs.

Because the supporting player card has more credence than the argument you use...all those players I mentioned won more les with other teams than they did with the Spurs...

And they they supported 3 guys consistently ranked over DRob(in Horry's case all 3)...while he never had that.


You don't think Horry was the difference in some of his teams les?