Mayhem in Detroit

[whottt]

All ya'll mother ers saying Artest shouldn't have defended himself are some suburban, pampered fools. Serious, you never had to defend yourselves in your life. If someone slapped you in the face, you'd head out the door, you wouldn't know what to do with yourself. You have to realize these players more often than not come from backgrounds where they have to stand up for themselves against any slight, they have to be men. Artest and Jackson were men. Maybe a lack of perfect judgment, but they were protecting themselves against some cowardly, punk-ass behavior. Like those two fat-ass chubby kids who came out in Pistons jerseys trying to start with Artest on the floor. Got what they deserved - leveled. I hate those frat boy types in the stands thinking they can lob beers at players and not get their noses taken off. Where's the respect? And the dumb-ass cops trying to pepper spray the players before they pepper spray the fans.

This reminds me of those idiots who get themselves killed every year in Yellowstone encouraging their kids to walk up and pet a moose or something, a bear, and get themselves wiped out. People have no respect for anything and don't see consequences for their behavior. This was all caused by idiotic fans.

Um, I'm a bondsman for a defense attorney. I talk to multiple people being accused of assault every day. I have already gone and gotten some accused of assault out of jail today. Since it is now right after 2 am, I will probably go and get someone charged with assault out of jail within the next couple of hours. A nice side effect of my particular situation is that I tend to have someone threatening me with assault on a weekly basis.

My world is assault.

And IMO there is hard and fast rule on what cons utes self defense. I have seen people get charged AND FOUND GUILTY of assault for beating someone who broke into their house. I have seen a woman call the police on her husband for assault and she end up being the one who gets arrested. I have met someone who hit a man with a car and he got off on a self defense charge. It's a fast and loose world.

IMO, Artest, even with a good lawyer is going to have a hard time mounting a self defense case...he went looking for a fight...he had to run 35 feet to get to the guy...and then he got the wrong guy. I think he's going to have a weak case...and if he does get taken to court I don't think the citizens of Detroit are going to be very accomodating to him if it goes to a jury trial.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Just to settle the argument on Rifleman's suit color.

[timvp]

Chuck Person saved the day.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Um, I'm a bondsman for a defense attorney. I talk to multiple people being accused of assault every day. I have already gone and gotten some accused of assault out of jail today. Since it is now right after 2 am, I will probably go and get someone charged with assault out of jail within the next couple of hours. A nice side effect of my particular situation is that I tend to have someone threatening me with assault on a weekly basis.

My world is assault.

And IMO there is hard and fast rule on what cons utes self defense. I have seen people get charged AND FOUND GUILTY of assault for beating someone who broke into their house. I have seen a woman call the police on her husband for assault and she end up being the one who gets arrested. I have met someone who hit a man with a car and he got off on a self defense charge. It's a fast and loose world.

IMO, Artest, even with a good lawyer is going to have a hard time mounting a self defense case...he went looking for a fight...he had to run 35 feet to get to the guy...and then he got the wrong guy. I think he's going to have a weak case...and if he does get taken to court I don't think the citizens of Detroit are going to be very accomodating to him if it goes to a jury trial.

If ever an order for a change of venue should be granted...

[iminlakerland]

Man im sitting here pondering this still. Where the was security? How could security let this happen? Detroit needs to amp up security! This isnt the first time fans have been able to walk onto the court.

I hate to bring this up but remember the Karl Malone incident? Ehh i guess somethings dont change.

[Mr. Body]

This is precisely my point. Artest and Jackson both come from a different background than most the people on this board - and most the people that are able to buy NBA tickets. This episode is one of the rare times that exposes the social and class gulf that exists in professional athletics but is normally meticulously airbrushed away.

Most these athletes come from backgrounds where you have to stand up for yourself, where being shown as a punk is something that can never be lived down. They are seriously tough backgrounds, where people die, get put in jail, on a regular basis. This is not the environment most of us live. When you are threatened, when you are shown up, you have to stand up to it, even if you get your ass kicked - you CANNOT BE A PUNK. You cannot let someone get away with it.

That's the impulse there. You protect yourself, you protect your crew. Why? Why, in the cities of America, do they have to do this? Because nobody protects them, no outside force will protect them. The police act usually as antagonists. Codes develop.

You fail to see this in the correct terms. True, these men are professionals, they sign autographs, they hang out with fans, and so on, but this was not a player-versus-fan brawl. This was a man-versus-man brawl. You fail to see this correctly, you see this in suburban terms, where the police will take your side on every issue and won't throw the cuffs on you immediately whenever any goes down and take them off later if they have to. I think there is some blindness on your part. I'm not trying to absolve anybody in this instance, but there were some cowardly ass people in the stands who needed a good smacking. Because others in the crowd didn't know what was going on - didn't see the bottles thrown and hitting Artest - it blew up from there.

I stand by it - this episode shows a glimpse of the divides that still exist, very powerfully, in our culture and our culture of sports.

IMO, Artest, even with a good lawyer is going to have a hard time mounting a self defense case...he went looking for a fight...he had to run 35 feet to get to the guy...and then he got the wrong guy. I think he's going to have a weak case...and if he does get taken to court I don't think the citizens of Detroit are going to be very accomodating to him if it goes to a jury trial.

There won't be any trial, there won't be any charges. Sports in America is big business -- and I mean BIG BUSINESS. And as we know, money talks in this country and money is essentially the law. There are too many battalions of lawyers working for Stern and these players make too much money for their cities. There will never be a single charge anywhere.

[Kori Ellis]

Artest and Jackson both come from a different background than most the people on this board

You don't know anyone's background on this board.

I understand you are trying to create a race/wealth issue on why this happened. But you are so off base.

Bowen and Malik grew up pretty damn ghetto -- would they have gone into the stands punching fans if they got beer on them? no.

[whottt]

This is precisely my point. Artest and Jackson both come from a different background than most the people on this board - and most the people that are able to buy NBA tickets. This episode is one of the rare times that exposes the social and class gulf that exists in professional athletics but is normally meticulously airbrushed away.

Most these athletes come from backgrounds where you have to stand up for yourself, where being shown as a punk is something that can never be lived down. They are seriously tough backgrounds, where people die, get put in jail, on a regular basis. This is not the environment most of us live. When you are threatened, when you are shown up, you have to stand up to it, even if you get your ass kicked - you CANNOT BE A PUNK. You cannot let someone get away with it.

Um, you don't know what the you are talking about. Jax is from Houston and grew up in Port Aurther Texas...

And he went to the same highschool in Virginia that I did.

Those mother ers ont he basketball team had it better than we did...not only were they the only ones that got to go off campus but they got to rape us on drug prices. I don't know about Artest but Jax has had it pretty ing good since he was a teenager...better than me.

That's the impulse there. You protect yourself, you protect your crew. Why? Why, in the cities of America, do they have to do this? Because nobody protects them, no outside force will protect them. The police act usually as antagonists. Codes develop.

You fail to see this in the correct terms. True, these men are professionals, they sign autographs, they hang out with fans, and so on, but this was not a player-versus-fan brawl. This was a man-versus-man brawl. You fail to see this correctly, you see this in suburban terms, where the police will take your side on every issue and won't throw the cuffs on you immediately whenever any goes down and take them off later if they have to. I think there is some blindness on your part. I'm not trying to absolve anybody in this instance, but there were some cowardly ass people in the stands who needed a good smacking. Because others in the crowd didn't know what was going on - didn't see the bottles thrown and hitting Artest - it blew up from there.

I stand by it - this episode shows a glimpse of the divides that still exist, very powerfully, in our culture and our culture of sports.

Sorry there are rules of society and you either live by them or you get punished by the law.

That's like saying a pedophile can't help himself....he better ing learn...or he isn't going to be a part of society for very long.

There won't be any trial, there won't be any charges. Sports in America is big business -- and I mean BIG BUSINESS. And as we know, money talks in this country and money is essentially the law. There are too many battalions of lawyers working for Stern and these players make too much money for their cities. There will never be a single charge anywhere.

Um, not to rain on your parade but you are ing stupid if you don't think there are also lawyers that are going to have $$$ signs in their eyes over the prospect of bringing PI and assault cases up against these millionair NBA players.....Lawyers have people in their offices that do nothing but look for these sorts of incidents.


I gurantee you every person that got punched by an NBA player who was identified is going to be contacted by an attorney.

There may not be a trial...but there will be some money paid out over this incident. Guranteed.

[Mr. Body]

You don't know anyone's background on this board.

No joke.

The NBA - and NFL, and any other sport - normally works without incident because of the money involved, the success, and so on, and precisely because players are protected, and so on. But incidents do develop.

Sure, Malik and Bowen grew up in Philly or South Central or wherever, but that doesn't mean every guy who grows up in the ghetto plays the tuba or has a good set of step-parents to guide them, or whatever happened to Bowen. I'm saying the impulses are always there throughout the sport and it popped out in this instance, when emotions ran high and overwhelmed professionalism. Yes, it's a character issue. Yes, it's an issue of keeping tempers in check. But I'm also saying there are reasons behind this. Stern and the NBA are dynamite at taking talented black kids out of impoverished areas and doctoring all these impulses out of them, because they sell to little kids in Yao shirts and their parents - in the suburbs. It took a long time for Iverson to give enough to play by the new set of rules. But, simply, it is not always the same set of rules some of these guys spent their entire lives learning. That's the facts. They might have been protected on the playground because they could ball - same as the scrawny kids who could rap - but they saw it, they knew it. It's there, plain as day.

I don't know why you're having problems identifying social issues in inner cities and bad neighborhoods.

These two men were trying to protect themselves. The fans were at fault. If some dude threw a can at Artest in an alley somewhere, why would he keep walking? Why is it any different when some boorish frat guy throws it from a couple rows up?

YES, I wish he would have walked away. NO, I will not condemn him for trying to teach this guy a lesson about behaving in the world.

There may not be a trial...but there will be some money paid out over this incident. Guranteed.

Yeah, I agree. Don't get your point about Jax growing up in Port Arthur. Or - Boo Hoo - him having the posh life you didn't (?). I'm still not sure you're getting it.

[Kori Ellis]

I get all the poverty issues and it was how they grew up, blahblah. I coached inner city teenage boys basketball in South Central L.A. for four years. I probably know more about that kind of stuff than you. But that's an excuse. He wasn't in danger. He wasn't acting in self-defense.

I still don't get what you think Artest was protecting himself from. Wetness? Beer stains? He wasn't threatened or in danger until HE went into the stands.

[Louae]

Most these athletes come from backgrounds where you have to stand up for yourself, where being shown as a punk is something that can never be lived down. They are seriously tough backgrounds, where people die, get put in jail, on a regular basis. This is not the environment most of us live. When you are threatened, when you are shown up, you have to stand up to it, even if you get your ass kicked - you CANNOT BE A PUNK. You cannot let someone get away with it.

That's the impulse there. You protect yourself, you protect your crew. Why? Why, in the cities of America, do they have to do this? Because nobody protects them, no outside force will protect them. The police act usually as antagonists. Codes develop.

I totally understand where you're coming from but that still doesn't make their reactions right. And it certainly doesn't allow them to get off from a heavy suspension. NO PLAYER SHOULD EVER ENTER THE STANDS TO FIGHT.. And I don't give two flying s as to how they're provoked to enter the stands. There are just too many innocent bystanders to have that going on in the stands. If Artest wouldn't have entered the stands, none of that crap would've happened. It's as simple as that.

After all, the basketball arena should be a civilized environment and everything should be done to keep it that way. Just b/c they come from a hole doesn't mean they can turn a perfectly peaceful environment into a hole based on the actions to a few unruly fans.

Now if a fan comes onto the court, he gets what he deserves. He should get pummelled and go to jail. The same should go for fans who were throwing onto the floor. But if a player enters the stands to fight, he should be suspended for a long in' time regardless of whether or not he was provoked or not.

[TheWriter]

I get all the poverty issues and it was how they grew up, blahblah. I coached inner city teenage boys basketball in South Central L.A. for four years. I probably know more about that kind of stuff than you. But that's an excuse. He wasn't in danger. He wasn't acting in self-defense.

I still don't get what you think Artest was protecting himself from. Wetness? Beer stains? He wasn't threatened or in danger until HE went into the stands.

Exactly. He's a hothead who reacted like the nutjob he is. He had nothing to be threatened about.

[toosmallshoes]

a plastic cup of beer hit artest in the chest while he was laying on the press table passive-aggesively taunting the pistons' players and fans. If he wanted to stay out of it he should have walked far far away. He should not have run into the stands under any cir stances. And SJax just added more proof to the argument that he is a mindless idiot when he followed artest into the stands. They should both spend some of their suspension time in jail.

[whottt]

Yeah, I agree. Don't get your point about Jax growing up in Port Arthur. Or - Boo Hoo - him having the posh life you didn't (?). I'm still not sure you're getting it.

Um Jax was going out there trying to slug every mother er in the stands...

You seem to be excusing his behaviour based on his environment during his formative years...

Well...it's bull ..that mofo was getting his ass kissed from the time he was 14 on at a prep school...

You act like little kids don't get their asses kicked in school unless they are poor or black or something...we'll you're wrong...that happens to kids everywhere.

That's kids...kids do that everywhere. There are bullies at every school, kids get into fights at every school. Kids get beat up at every school. And neighborhoods too... Rich Kids are the biggest s there are.

My point is to stop making excuses for a lack of discipline. These guys are grown ing men. They are old enough to know right from wrong, they should be fairly aware of the law, especially if they had a rough upbringing, and they are old enough to be in control of their actions.

[Mr. Body]

I get all the poverty issues and it was how they grew up, blahblah. I coached inner city teenage boys basketball in South Central L.A. for four years. I probably know more about that kind of stuff than you. But that's an excuse. He wasn't in danger. He wasn't acting in self-defense.

The compe ion thing is stupid. I live in Harlem. My girlfriend has a fake tooth and a scar on her cheek because someone blind-sided her during a fight with a pair of brass knuckles. Her sister, who danced with LL Cool J back in the day, now a single mother of four bright, active kids and living in Jersey City, motored her way through public school with her share of cuts and bruises. If someone gave you beef on the way home from school and you did nothing about it, your mother would march you back to where it happened and would clear everybody out so you and that kid could do it with fists until somebody had enough. It wasn't about winning or losing, it was about standing up. Aquilah, my gf's sister, once got some grief from members of the girl's basketball team and wound up, with her mother watching to make sure she wouldn't get jumped, fighting them in the locker room ONE BY ONE until she kicked all their asses.

I'm white, I grew up in the suburbs. It is crazy the stuff they went through growing up around here. I apologize for the tone of my comments, which were more combative than they should have, but we have all been super-charged by that fight. I'm coming to understand just how tough this environment is - as you likely saw in LA. I am not justifying Artest's behavior, but I can understand it. My girlfriend, incidentally, who is also a big basketball fan (Knicks, by the way), saw the incident entirely from Artest and Jackson's point of view. They had to stand their ground. I find myself siding with them and against people here and elsewhere who call for them to be suspended all season. I think their actions were reasonable and did not directly cause the eruption of viciousness that came afterwards: that was the fans' fault. A suspension is in order, but not nearly that drastic.

The NBA needs to work hard to fix this problem and smooth things over, which I think they will. I also think that this springs from a racial and cultural gulf in this country that may never be fixed. Whatever that's worth.

[whottt]

They had to stand their ground.

And now they get to accept the judgement of the law...just like everyone else...well, not just like everyone else...most everyone else would have been arrested right there on the spot.

[Kori Ellis]

A suspension is in order, but not nearly that drastic.

I don't think they should be suspended all season. Stephen Jackson is on all my fantasy teams

But I do think that the NBA can't be easy on the punishment. I think Jack and Artest might get 15-20 games. Wallace and others,anywhere from 1-10.

The fans sucked. The security sucked. But my point is that the bulk could have been avoided if Artest would have just not gone into the stands.

[Mr. Body]

And now they get to accept the judgement of the law...just like everyone else...well, not just like everyone else...most everyone else would have been arrested right there on the spot.

Money is law. Too many lawyers, too much commercial interest in keeping them playing. Forget it. Why this lust for posse justice?

But I do think that the NBA can't be easy on the punishment. I think Jack and Artest might get 15-20 games. Wallace and others,anywhere from 1-10.

I think that is fair.

I apologize again for being antagonistic. Now I head for bed.

[whottt]

Money is law. Too many lawyers, too much commercial interest in keeping them playing. Forget it. Why this lust for posse justice?

Um, because they went up into the stands and beat the out of an innocent man for starters?

I'm not picking sides...the dumbass that threw the bottle should be prosecuted too...but there's a big difference between throwing a plastic bottle at someone and running up into the stands and beating the out of someone. Lots of prosecutions should be held up...but Artest started the brawl...plain and simple. He threw the first punch. He's should have to face the music for doing so...As should the other guys that were sucker punching players and players that were suckerpunching fans.

But he lost it plain and simple...don't give me cultural bull ...I probably would have done the same thing...but that doesn't change the law...he went and beat an innocent man...and he's going to pay some $$$ for it...mainly because he can.


Every player in the NBA knows the foul rules and this isn't much different...every player in the NBA knows what happens if you throw a punch...it's always the second guy that gets caught...this is very similar... so why would you think they don't know that same rule when it comes to the fans as well?

Artest started the brawl.

And if you make cultural excuses for the behaviour of Artest...why don't you make them for the dumbass that threw something at him for acting like a punk? They were both out of line. But Artest went and beat the out of an innocent man and so did Jax....that's a big difference.

[timvp]

After looking everything over, I'll say Artest is finished for the season.

[toosmallshoes]

One can only hope. That CD of his better be good. It's going to be his only source of income soon.

[boutons]

Jim Gray sounds like he's about to bust out crying while giving his report for ESPN News.

yes, I thought I heard his voice cracking several times.

[Nikihtgrl]

Jermaine Oneal threw a running haymacker at a fat towel boy

dude got the knocked the out, it took three ppl to pick him up

SJax dropped a nice one on a fan in the stands, Artest was being held by 5 ppl n takin shots, he broke lose n connected on a nice one

detroit is wild!

Indy is done for the year

towl boys can wear jersey's? all reports said fans ran out on the court.

[SLOVENIAN 8]

Wtf! They are crazy.
http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/...videos=1927343

[ducks]

you know the security sucked
at the baseball game when they were in new york
they had cops up and down the foul line when fans got out of hand when the refs took the run off the board for the yankees
security sucked big time here