Does he still hold that record? I coulda sworn Moon or Esiason or some broke it.
Defensively? yeah...overall? Uh no. Besides, Magic had a ton of triples.Alvin Robertston is better than Magic Johnson because he had a quadruple double and Magic never did?
I am not arguing Drob is better on the basis of a single post season FG%....Others are pointing out his midcareer slumps in that category and attributing it to some kind of lack of leadership or heart on his part...Robinson did indeed have the highest single FG% over a postseason series. But why does this override the overall postseason FG%'s of Shaq (55 plus) Hakeem (53) vs. DRob (47) over the course of entire careers? These guys played in about 20-25 playoff series over their careers. One/20-25 is about 4 or 5% of their postseason resumes.
If Dirk goes against Memphis for 72% FG next yr in the playoffs, is he > DRob? I think not.
I am pointing out that obviously that is a flawed argument based on his performances his first 2 years in the league(when he had NBA starting caliber guards I might add).
Hakeem and Shaq were both doubled and tripled just as much as DRob. Just look at the series in 95 where you claim Hakeem was never double teamed, yet he nearly doubled his career assist average with 5.5 assists a game that series Hakeem wouldn't see his assist per game average rise in the playoffs from reg season if he was double teamed less.
Actually, they weren't....oh there might have been a couple of playoffs where Hakmeem got it like Drob, but it wasn't those years he won a championship...and Shaq never got it like that. There was never need to do it to Shaq like that..Shaq could be somewhat controlled by fouling him.
Now if you're argument is that Hakeem had more 3 pt shooters than DRob's that is obviously true. The thing is though that as an NBA coach you're almost always going to try to take away the other team's #1 and higest % option to make others beat you. Even if they are good outside shooters like Fisher, Elie, Bowen, etc. It's still your best chance. Also, while AJ couldn't shoot a lick, he was a much better penetrator as far as drive n dish than guys like Derek FIsher (SHaq) and Kenny Smith (opposite of AJ who were good spot-up (great in Smith's case) shooters but not pure PGs.
No, you've got it reversed...the first thing teams will do is take away the best player, because it's easier to stop one guy than it is 4.
And there's absolutely no doubt that in 93-94 when DRob's supporting cast was so awful, it was a simple matter of stopping him, not stopping anyoen elese...
To say Drob was double teamed in 93-94 is an understatement...more like quadruple teamed and fouled every time he got the ball every Jazz on the court...sometiems it got called, and sometimes you couldn't see the foul due to the number of Jazz jerseys surrounding him.
Case in point is Tim Duncan. He's had excellent talent around him his whole career but teams still consistently double team him because shots in the paint are just higher % so you have to try to minimize them. Other than the Mavs of this year, almost every team has double teamed Duncan extensively in the playoffs. You have no choice unless you have a Rasheed Wallace Defensively.
And the Spurs have a long roster of post season heroes that stepped up when that was done...
Jaren Jackson
Mario Elie
Stephen Jackson
Steve Kerr
Manu
Robert Horry.
Just depends on the supporting cast...Duncan's been doubled sometimes more than others.
Hmmmm...The Spurs never doubled Shaq until 04. They never doubled Kobe either after Bowen got here. Kobe was the reason they beat us, every time, except 2004.Same with Shaq. Regardless of how good Bryant was, you had to swarm on Shaq or he'd dunk on you or get a 2 foot shot almost everytime down. This is why Bryant's game
Vinny couldn't hit open shots....he'd do ok in the course of a normal game when he was being defended normally, but he couldn't buy a meaningful open fourth quarter shot. Neither could AJ(who wouldn't even attempt it). And more that likely it would fall to Drob to have to do it on mutiple defenders for a 4th...Also Vinny was an excellent mid range shooter. His range didnt extend to the 3 point line and he was very weak defensively but the guy could shoot up to about 18-19 feet.
I would agree that he was really the weak link on the Spurs team all in all though in terms of holding them back (much moreso than AJ who you seem to just loathe).
No one is saying Robinson wasn't great because he was, just not on par with the aforementioned guys.
Except for the fact that he beat them all and has a winning record against all of them, with a weaker supporting cast, and people that argue against him try to do it on the basis of team success in the playoffs. When as anyone knows...the best teams win in the playoffs...
Just ask Shaq and Hakeem, after all their first round boucing and sweeps.
No...but Cassell is a big part of the reason Hakeem has two les...and he was huge part of the reason that the Rockets beat us that year.Hakeem did have better 3 pt shooters in his prime than DRob (though not in his early years until about 93). But is Cassell the reason Hakeem had 15 post moves and an unstoppable turnaround J or is taht because it's a skill he worked hard to develop?
Drob had all the go to move he needed...it was called being faster and taller than anyone they could put on him and never being more than a step and a half away from a dunk or layup...or foul.
Parker is definitely part of the reason that Duncan doesn't see more double teams...and Bruce is part of the reason that Duncan's gets space to operate.Is Parker the reason Duncan is money on the bank shot up to 16-18 feet or skill? Is Bowen the reason Duncan has incredible Mchale and Hakeemesque footwork or is it because of the work he put in at Wake Forest honing his game?
I can't believe you are saying this...go watch a Spurs playoff game sometime.
Seriously...that was a horrible point.
Drob on his worst day got his teamates open in the post season every bit as much as Shaq, Duncan or Hakeem have done, on their best day...He was doubled more than any of them were...got look at how often he got to the line in the playoffs.
And more importantly, he was easier to double up on because his guys sucked....he saw it more, some of it because of his game, and some of it becasue his teamates couldn't ing shoot, and it's just that simple.
Your constantly referring to how AJ couldn't shoot is also misleading and I'm sure you know this. No one is going to argue AJ COULD shoot. But DRob did have some quality shooters over portions of his career, namely Dale Ellis and Chuck Person. Elliott also had good range for a SF and Vinny had a nice jumper but couldn't hit from the arc.
Ahh Dale Ellis was a lump of crap by the time he played here...
Rifleman was the one guy that actually could shoot...and teams didn't let him. They weren't doubling off of person..they were doubling off of AJ, and Rodman...and sometimes Vinny.
But it's not like Vernon Maxwell, Hakeem's 2G for most of his prime was a great shooter. He was really erratic and a low % shooter. And it's not like Robinson had 4 scrubs surrounding him who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. It was really mainly AJ who hurt SA in the outside shooting dept. Vinny really hurt SA defensively.
GO look at how many of Hakeems teamates stepped up and hit game winners for him in that playoff run...
Last edited by whottt; 06-15-2006 at 07:26 AM.
Ok well you got me there...if I need someone to win a game at the FT line Drob is not going to be my first choice...but neither are Hakeem, Duncan, and Shaq.
Adn while I can't think of any instances of Hakeem missing some game winning FT's...Duncan's done it a ton of times in the playoffs and Shaq isn't exactly Rick Barry at the FT line either.
Drob didn't lose a won game....that's the essential point.
I wish we could have seen that team stick together and develop. I mean, that young nucleus for Robinson, Strickland, Elliot, and Anderson had a lot of potential until Willie's shins blew out and Strickland was bounced out of town.
That team had some scary potential with a little experience behind them.
Not that I disagree Shaq is past his prime, but using your earlier example, his production did drop off significantly in the Finals compared to his regular season numbers, and keep in mind that it is well known Shaq cruises in the regular season.
It just illustrates that at times, the play of teammates does affect the superstar. Teams learn that there are two primary ways to play a superstar, shut down his supporting cast and force him to beat you on his own, or shut him down, and force his supporting cast to beat you. In Robinson's case, teams find it so much easier to beat the Spurs by doubling and tripling Robinson when none of his teammates can score.
No, I don't think Robinson > Hakeem in his prime, but yes, I do think that Robinson's greatest fault is that he continuously drag teams that shouldn't even make the playoffs into le contention, not complain about the terrible job the GM did about his supporting casts and coaches, and play his best day in and day out.
Also, I also think Shaq is one of the most overrated players, possibly because I am a Spurs fan and I am biased, but also because of what I saw when he failed to have a superstar two guard side kick and a HoF coach.
He still does. Moon is 2nd and had a chance to take him out for #1 but took himself out of the game in the 4th Q against the Chiefs.
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