Spurs To Retire Avery Johnson's Number 6

[picnroll]

So you are stating that Don Harris strong armed Pop into retiring AJ's number? Is that your take?

And is Beno still the best defensive guard on the team?

Thank you.

No. but if Harris hadn't ed Avery would be a footnote in Spurs lore and contrary to your lining up Pop as one of your big endorsers of Avery having his number retired it appears that Pop didn't really think it was merited and was willing to give 6 to Manu. Unless of course you think someone was holding a gun to Pop's head and making him offer Manu the number.

and no Beno isn't just as avery still was a sucky PG and dragged Rob's best years down. I can admit a mistake.

[timvp]

I'm just stating a fact which we agree on. If you polled the ST posters and based the #6 jersey retirement on the poll results, there would still be 5 retired jerseys up in the rafters after December 22nd.

In the votes that count, it's unanimous.

That's all that matters.

To be fair, whottt has been hating on AJ well before he became the Mavs head coach.

whottt also thinks the Coyote meant more to the Spurs than David Robinson. Really want to use him as an example?

I don't think this is the reason why most posters don't want AJ's jersey retired.

If AJ wasn't the coach of the Mavs, he'd probably be around 35% on the poll instead of 25%.

[timvp]

timvp, the ratio of 5 retired jerseys to 4 championships means nothing because 3 of those 4 championships were won in the last 4 years. Most of the players who made those championships a reality are still playing.

Not sure how that statement helps your cause.

So when this run is over, the Spurs will have 10 retired numbers and at least four championships.

The horror

[timvp]

No. but if Harris hadn't ed Avery would be a footnote in Spurs lore

Uh ... do you know what strong arm means?

You basically just said "No. but yes."

and contrary to your lining up Pop as one of your big endorsers of Avery having his number retired it appears that Pop didn't really think it was merited and was willing to give 6 to Manu. Unless of course you think someone was holding a gun to Pop's head and making him offer Manu the number.

Manu picked number six. The Spurs gave it to him. Talked about how much AJ meant. When they realized that one day they might want to retire the number, they asked Manu to pick a new number.

It's not brain surgery or the drama that Spurs Nation makes it out to be.

and no Beno isn't just as avery still was a sucky PG and dragged Rob's best years down. I can admit a mistake.

But the last time we argued you were telling me Beno was the best defensive guard on the Spurs. Is that no longer the case?

[timvp]

Spurs fans seriously think CIA Pop got strong armed into retiring Avery Johnson's number by Don Harris. That's amazing.

If Pop didn't like something Harris said, he would have snapped his fingers and Harris would have STFU.

To think that a media member is forcing Pop to do something he doesn't want to do is beyond laughable.

[picnroll]

Manu picked number six. The Spurs gave it to him. Talked about how much AJ meant. When they realized that one day they might want to retire the number, they asked Manu to pick a new number.

It's not brain surgery or the drama that Spurs Nation makes it out to be.

Dayamn hope nothing happens to TD this year and they give Splitter his number before "they realized that one day they might want to retire the number".

Now it's my turn to use the emoticom.

[picnroll]

But the last time we argued you were telling me Beno was the best defensive guard on the Spurs. Is that no longer the case?

Nahh, we've argued since then.

[timvp]

Dayamn hope nothing happens to TD this year and they give Splitter his number before "they realized that one day they might want to retire the number".

Now it's my turn to use the emoticom.

Did you just compare Duncan to AJ?

And you never answered my Beno question . . .

[picnroll]

Beno sucks. But feel free to reference it again anytime we argue

[Tek_XX]

AJ as point guard with DRob=wasted years.

[sandman]

Actually, it's the opposite. The small-mindedness of Spurs fans keeps them from actually thinking their players are deserving of recognition. The Spurs have four NBA championships. AJ will be their sixth retired number. That's a pretty damn impressive ratio.

Compare it to other teams:

Atlanta - 1 championship, 3 retired players
Cleveland - 0 championships, 6 retired players
Dallas - 0 championships, 2 retired players
Denver - 0 championships, 5 retired players
Detroit - 2 championships, 7 retired players
Indiana - 0 championships, 4 retired players
Milwaukee - 1 championship, 7 retired players
New Jersey - 0 championships, 6 retired players
New Orleans - 0 championships, 2 retired players
New York - 2 championships, 9 retired players
Philadelphia - 2 championships, 7 retired players
Phoenix - 0 championships, 9 retired players
Portland - 1 championship, 9 retired players
Sacramento - 1 () championship, 8 retired players
Seattle - 1 championship, 5 retired players
Utah - 0 championships, 6 retired players

Since you took the time to look it up, how many of these players are either in the HoF or will be once they are eligible?

How many of these players garnered league honors in their careers?

Why are we comparing ourselves to the scrubs of the league?

Lakers: 60 years, 14 les, but only 7 retired numbers, all of which are in the HoF.

Celtics: 60 years, 16 les, 19 retired numbers, 13 of which are in the HoF. The others: DJ, JoJo White, Sanders, Nellie, Cedric Maxwell and Reggie Lewis. Maybe not HoF material, but clearly well beyond just average players in the league.

And why can't we compare the team outside of the sport? Are not Spurs fans the first to state that our team is the winningest franchise in all major sports over the last decade?

The Yankees have only retired 16 total numbers in over 100 years, yet have 26 world championships and over 20 players (not to mention managers) in the HoF.

If we are going to say that we are a model franchise, then we should start acting like it. LA/Boston in basketball, Green Bay/Dallas in football, NYY in baseball.

[picnroll]

Did you just compare Duncan to AJ?

Slip sliding away, slip sliding away

[timvp]

Beno sucks. But feel free to reference it again anytime we argue

Hey, I could have been mean and bumped the thread.

But I like picnroll so I'll let it slide.

[smeagol]

In the votes that count, it's unanimous.

That's all that matters.

Wouldn't it be nice if fans had some kind of say in who's number should be retired?

whottt also thinks the Coyote meant more to the Spurs than David Robinson. Really want to use him as an example?

I don't believe that is what he said, even though ST lore says he did.

If AJ wasn't the coach of the Mavs, he'd probably be around 35% on the poll instead of 25%.

35% still sucks major ass. Manu and Tony would be 99% (there are always a couple of idiots), TD 100%.

[Extra Stout]

Another thing, Extra Stout - since when do you care about how this looks from the outside? When Phoenix fans came in with their ratings smack and their asterisks smack, you could not have cared less how it looked. Now all of a sudden, you're worried about a possible podunk factor. Why is that? What's the difference?

The issue is not that it looks podunk, but rather that it is podunk.

[sandman]

Manu picked number six. The Spurs gave it to him. Talked about how much AJ meant. When they realized that one day they might want to retire the number, they asked Manu to pick a new number.

You make Holt and Pop out to be dumbasses to have never thought about the possibility of retiring the "L'il General" number before letting Manu chose the number. I thought he and Pop were tight...

[Extra Stout]

Well, at least you're not overstating things at all. This is literally the first time I have ever heard the phrase "one of the best sixth men ever" in connection with the name "Don Nelson".

Your insularity is not my problem.

[sandman]

Your insularity is not my problem.

Probably thinks Lenny Wilkins is in the HoF because he was a good coach...

[timvp]

If we are going to say that we are a model franchise, then we should start acting like it.

Yeah, because the number of retired jerseys a team has is an indication of whether or not a franchise is a model franchise. What kind of lame take is that?

Being a model franchise is about winning. It's about winning the right way. It's about having quality people throughout the organization.

This stretch of Spurs Basketball is one of the best examples of a model franchise in the history of sport. The Spurs win with dignity. They lose with dignity. Everyone is a class act.

It's a great time to be a Spurs fan. Recognizing the accomplishment of players who helped mold the franchise the right way doesn't take away from that.

[SRJ]

Your insularity is not my problem.

No, but overstating the case of a guy who didn't win any league honors and didn't make an All-Star team is.

If you want to say that Don Nelson wasn't deserving of a jersey retirement, that's consistent with your position on Avery Johnson. However, if your position is that Nelson is deserving and Avery Johnson is not, you should be aware that it's a dubious position.

[timvp]

Wouldn't it be nice if fans had some kind of say in who's number should be retired?

no.

This is the same fan base that couldn't sell out a playoff game during the Western Conference Finals. You want to trust them with the retired numbers?

You do that, you better be prepared to have Steve Kerr's number raised to the rafters.

The current system of Pop and the ownership deciding is the perfect way to do it. They know who made a difference in the franchise ... even if fans can't or refuse to acknowledge it.

[smeagol]

no.

This is the same fan base that couldn't sell out a playoff game during the Western Conference Finals. You want to trust them with the retired numbers?

You do that, you better be prepared to have Steve Kerr's number raised to the rafters.

The current system of Pop and the ownership deciding is the perfect way to do it. They know who made a difference in the franchise ... even if fans can't or refuse to acknowledge it.

I said some kind of say, not the ultimate deciders.

[smeagol]

This stretch of Spurs Basketball is one of the best examples of a model franchise in the history of sport. The Spurs win with dignity. They lose with dignity. Everyone is a class act.

Would Avery fit well in today's Spurs?

[timvp]

You make Holt and Pop out to be dumbasses to have never thought about the possibility of retiring the "L'il General" number before letting Manu chose the number. I thought he and Pop were tight...

I don't get what you guys think the process is of deciding which numbers players get. Do you guys think there is a big roundtable discussion of all the Spurs players, management and ownership that discusses the pros and cons of giving out certain numbers to certain players?

The reality is the Spurs give new players a to-do list. On that to-do list is a section where the player is to contact the Spurs' equipment manager and let the equipment manager know what number they want to be. That's it. There's no congressional summit. There's no democratic vote involved.

So basically, the Spurs equipment manager (who at the time would have been Commando) got a call from Manu saying he wanted to be number six, so he got out a number six and sewed it on a jersey. That's how it works.

[sandman]

What kind of lame take is that?

I set the standard with the Lakers and Celtics. You set the standard with Cleveland and Atlanta. Yet my take is lame. OK, you win.

I have enjoyed the debating, but quite frankly, AJ is not making it on skills/stats. It is plain and simple just on intangibles, which are subjectively quantified. In other words, it is my opinion against yours. While I respect your opinion, you are full of yourself if you think that your intangibles argument is irrefutable fact.