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Tell me Phenomanul... if God REALLY wanted me to go to Heaven, couldn't he find a way to convince me to believe?
It doesn't matter what the choice is, in all honesty. Let's say I forced you to eat a delicious cookie, or be tormented forever. It's still not moral.
If Jesus took our suffering, then why must we believe? Jesus can't have completely sacrificed for our suffering, if we still have to perform some action on our part.
In the end, you went with the exact argument I figured you would have. "Sure, it seems alot like this cir stance, but it's completely different because it's God/eternity/Heaven/whatever so that makes it ok."
I thought forgiveness was divine?
So you are saying God ought to force you to go to Heaven by making it automatic?
Tell me Phenomanul... if God REALLY wanted me to go to Heaven, couldn't he find a way to convince me to believe?
Given the alternative, if he is all-loving (assuming you think God is more NT than OT), then it makes logical sense that he should force people to go to Heaven, rather than have them burned forever.
Punishment only works as a means of REFORM. If the punishment is eternal, what is the point of punishment? Is it merely a scare tactic to convince unbelievers?
God can't punish you here, it would be unjust (he does punish true believers who are surely going to heaven here, however, when they sin). But it's not just punishment.
It's banishment from God's presence.
Never again will you have the chance to see or live in paradise with our father. You made your decision to avoid him and trust your own instincts - and the omnipotent omnipresent God wants nothing to do with your instincts or your decision now that you've for sure made it (when you die a nonbeliever).
is banishment from God's presence and Paradise, not just torment for being a nonbeliever.
it's quite just. That's like saying you own a dog and when it s in the house, you should just let it be.
just because you are blinded by a hate of Deism, doesn't mean it isn't very much just. God created us AND the universe we live, and set out a plan for all of us to get to heaven. Those who stray from the plan have no one to blame but themselves.
Can you not see how... childish that seems? Honestly? It just seems so impetulant to me.
"Fine, you don't want to believe me? Then you never will! POOF!"
If God wanted me to follow him, why not convince me? He is OMNIPOTENT. Able to do ANYTHING. Why not convince me then?
I appreciate how much thought you have given all this.Given the alternative, if he is all-loving (assuming you think God is more NT than OT), then it makes logical sense that he should force people to go to Heaven, rather than have them burned forever.
Punishment only works as a means of REFORM. If the punishment is eternal, what is the point of punishment? Is it merely a scare tactic to convince unbelievers?
Please consider the following.
As made clear in God's Word, the Bible, there are only two options from which mankind can choose: Jesus or Satan.
To embrace one is to reject the other. There is no middle ground, no option C.
That is the reality of every human. It is true and eternally effectual, regardless of whether or not we choose to admit it- much like gravity.
I can deny gravity all I want, but if I jump from a building, I am going to fall downward.
God allows free will so therefore has to allow a place for Satan and those who choose to follow Satan to go. That place is .
God desires all people to choose to spend eternity with Him. However He does not force anyone into it.
Every decision comes with consequences. There is no escaping that.
Well, I'm sure most people would feel that I would be crossing a line if I decided to string him up and leave him by himself until he died...
Again, just because God CREATED the world, and everything in it, does not mean that he gets to do anything he wants with it and it magically makes it moral.
Just because I create a child does not mean I have the 'right' morally to do whatever I want with it. If you disagree with that statement, then I don't know what to tell you.
If God can not counter my free will, is he truly omnipotent?
Which pretty well sums up every problem I have with fervent Christianity.
Sure there is: C - God and Satan are figments of our imagination.
LOL
Who here would throw their children in a fire and burn them forever just because they didn't love you?
Christian God does!
In fact, is there ANYTHING your child can do that would make you throw them in a fiery to suffer for all of eternity being tormented by demons?
Childish? Yeah, we're definitely on two different wavelengths. God is all just, and never makes "childish" moves. There's a bible (orwhatever) sitting there waiting for you to open it, you said you have and it did nothing for you, well whatever - it's worked veritable miracles for people. You've chosen your fate.
Um... yeah... He created you, and wants to make you happy and live in heaven forever. You're giving him the middle finger back."Fine, you don't want to believe me? Then you never will! POOF!"
Answered already. You want God to come down, send a lightning bolt up all the evil people's asses and force you to realize he's been watching you all along.If God wanted me to follow him, why not convince me? He is OMNIPOTENT. Able to do ANYTHING. Why not convince me then?
There's no choice in that - God won't force you to do jack . YOU must make the choice. It's really simple. If that choice is not God, whatever, it doesn't affect me.
I have better morals and more compassion than your Christian God.
It is permissible to kill your disobedient children, just like god. Don't you read Deuteronomy?
Deuteronomy 21:18
'If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not listen to the voice of his father...'
...or his mother...
...even when they punish him...
..his father and mother must take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town.
They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard."
All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you.
that was epic.
Not setting the bar too high there, are we?
you're an idiot, no matter how many times you reiterate the same (easily answered and dismissed) concept, no christian will ever give a damn.
Go murder some people and see if the American law isn't trying to find and punish you.Christian God does!
Go sin and see if God's going to banish you from him presence for being unholy.
It's apples to oranges totally (humans and god have only his 'nature' in common), but I will play along. Your children hate you and curse your name, deny your very existence even though you are solely responsible for creating the universe and bringing them into it, and ridicule/injure/murder your true family and have been doing so ever since roughly, the beginning of human history.In fact, is there ANYTHING your child can do that would make you throw them in a fiery to suffer for all of eternity being tormented by demons?
It's not hard to grasp why a just God would be pissed at his "children" who deny his very existence and refuse to play part in his plan, despite 100% knowledge of a happy ending.
True; your definition of god is an insecure criminal who cannot hold his emotions in check.
Your idea of God doesn't just 'banish me from his presence'..... he throws everyone in to suffer for eternity in fire.
"There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"
and the most we do to criminals, or murderers, is humanely execute them.
We would NEVER sit there torturing them forever. That's barbaric. Uncivilized.
Your god is uncivilized. Barbaric. Unjust.
and murdering people does not equal to not believing in your god
It is not that He cannot.
God absolutely could control your every decision, but He does not.
He graciously allows you to make decisions- to either profit or suffer according to your own will, in keeping with the eternal principles established since the beginning of the time- which are detailed in the Bible.
As an example, think of God like a head coach of a basketball team.
The coach has a desire and vision for the team and has drawn up plays to enable the players to achieve victory.
The players then have the choice to adopt or reject what their coach has said.
Constant communication between the coach and his players is a key element to the team succeeding.
Also, the players have to have the humility to submit their talents to the guidance of their coach and follow his game plan if they want to win.
If Pop draws up a proven perfect play and Tony disregards it or Timmy refuses to position himself properly, is Pop to blame for the lack of results?
No the fault would lie with Tony or Timmy for thinking they knew better than Pop.
God knows everything from the end of the beginning. He loves you and wants you to succeed.
He wants to be lovingly involved in your life, helping and encouraging you every step of the way.
He wants you on his team, so to speak.
But to prosper you as He so greatly wishes, God requires your participation.
how can anyone deny this?
is it self-deception? no courage to face themselves? lack of wisdom/perception to realize it?
so, for a child not cleaning his room and not finishing his dinner, you analogise a glutton and a drunkard?It is permissible to kill your disobedient children, just like god. Don't you read Deuteronomy?
Deuteronomy 21:18
'If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not listen to the voice of his father...'
...or his mother...
...even when they punish him...
..his father and mother must take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town.
They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard."
All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you.
fail.and re ed.
let's not forget one of the Ten Commandments (and that George Carlin bull is so easily answered and reasoned out by an objective mind) is Honor your father and your mother. See, unlike nowadays, people back then took their beliefs extremely seriously and when one of your children (and its clearly implying the 25 year old in the basement type child) continually broke a commandment, yeah it shouldn't surprise you.
what a crock of , but I didn't expect any better from you.
Are you of the opinion that whatever God does is, by definition, moral and/or just?
So it is moral to retaliate with punishment?
I said nothing of the sort. Let's do this like a Geometry proof.
1) God loves all his Children, and wants them to believe/go to Heaven.
2) God knows us all intimately.
3) God is omnipotent.
4) One must choose to believe.
5) Given 3, God has the ability to shape my thoughts/actions.
6) Given 1, 2 and 3, God has the ability to shape my thoughts/actions in such a way that I will WANT to believe in Him.
Please tell me at which point my logic is off.
at least the Egyptians didn't care about whether or not you believed.
Their God judged you by the weight of your heart, the deeds and type of person you were.
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