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Nash is just as bad as anyone else.....Bell as well.
Manu
Dirk
Just like Brandon Worthy Bass
Nash is just as bad as anyone else.....Bell as well.
Brad Davis = White Vinnie Johnson
You could make an argument Devin Harris for Kidd was a bigger heist than Joe Barry Carroll for McHale and Parish.
It was a worse trade than Brian Winters for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Harris led the Nets to 33 wins and 10th place in the East, whereas Jason Kidd and the Mavs won a playoff series in a tough Western Conference.
* Gah, I can't defend that trade. Still, not as bad as people make it out to be...especially since they'll make the playoffs and not surrender a lottery pick. Not worth doing, but hardly a trade that will set the franchise back years or something. I don't think Harris is going to get better than what he is right now.
Devin Harris > Kidd - right now.
and... Devin Harris > > > > > Kidd causing matchup problems against the Spurs (Who will be the first to make a 4-1 joke?)
^
I agree it was a crappy trade, but the Jet and Dirk don't have the year they had if Harris is playing point rather than Kidd.
The Spurs should trade Manu while he still has some value.
The thing with Bass was that here was a young guy beasting, while we looked at our team and had Matt ing Bonner. I mean, it's not complicated to see what's up.
My point is, it was a bad trade, but it's over blown. It's not like Dallas would be the next 86 Celtics w/ Harris.
And they might depending on how he comes back. But right now it's re ed, since he probably has the lowest value ever.
Harris is VERY one-dimensional. He gave the Spurs fits, but the Mavs had no problems with San Antonio anyways. Harris is basically Barbosa with a little better jump shot. His rep as a good defender is a bit overblown, and he's actually a very indifferent defender for Frank. He's not a true QB, so he doesn't see the floor or facilitate for his teammates that well. He's a VERY, VERY good one-on-one player. If you look at what he did in Jersey, his increased #s are simply a result of more touches and playing time. What he did in Dallas is what he would've continued to do.
I think Dallas gave too much for Kidd, and he was simply not going to put the over the top. Not in this Western Conference. I really expected Cubes to make a move like that for a BIG (which kind of brings us back to the point in this thread), but not for a PG.
IMO they would still be an elite team if it wasn't for that trade. And in 2007/08 it would have been Lakers vs Mavs instead of Lakers vs Spurs in the WCF (and I think Dallas would have had a more than decent chance of producing the upset)
They did indeed. They had to give up $20 million worth of assets for Kidd when he doesn't have that kind of value. If it had just been Harris for Kidd straight up, to me it's a no brainer. Harris' future doesn't tantalize me that much.
Because you're only looking at how their skillsets compliment each other offensively and not taking into account the many other variables.
I don't disagree they'd play well off of each other offensively but I believe your OP was who would essentially compliment Tim better playing at the peak of their game.
Given that premise, and I assumed you meant in terms of winning a championship, I'd take the '08 Manu who was the second best 2-guard and best closer in the league that year.
Duncan at his best was a 4.
Yes, he was a bit of a hybrid, in that he played more of the traditional pivot offensively, but who did he guard?
Tim is one of the greatest team defenders in the history of the NBA but he was never a spectacular man defender. You force him to to have to guard the Shaq's/Howard's of the world and you're taking away one of his greatest strengths.
So, yeah. Tim and Dirk could could be a nightmare at times offensively but you'd be taking away from Tim's game defensively runnin' him out at the 5 and you'd reduce Dirk's effectiveness, seeing that you wouldn't run the offense through him to fully realize his really great one trick.
This thread really got derailed from the original premise, well, at least the premise I assumed when responding, but I guess it's to be expected.
Look, for all those who are trying to argue who is better, Manu v Dirk, there's a pretty sound reason for the salary discrepancy and it has nothing to do with Cuban's perceived stupidity. So, I'm not arguing that.
But, if you're asking a hypothetical question of who gives you the better chance to win a championship as a compliment to Tim, given they're playing at the peak of their game, I'm going to argue Manu 7 days a week. It's just my belief that both Tim and Dirk, for different reasons, played their best at the 4.
Now, If you could legitimately play Dirk at the 3, Tim at the 4, and a modern day Parrish at the 5? I could definitely change my tune..
I just don't see that as feasible.
I was coming from a viewpoint of, "If the playoffs were about to start and I had a prime, healthy Manu or Dirk to choose from to put alongside Tim to get the job done, who would I roll with?", when responding to the OP. Now, maybe that's not what you intended but that's where I was coming from.
While, I don't dismiss the notion that Tim and Dirk would play well off each other offensively, I do question the pros and cons overall.
I just see Dirk becoming more like the guy before '06, who floated on the perimeter and wasn't nearly the player he's become, if you're running the offense through Tim. And, if you combined that with his less than stellar D at the 4 while compromising Timmy's all-world team defense playing him at the 5, I just don't see that as being an ideal second banana.
He'd be one of a second banana to the right player, I just don't think Tim's that guy.
Only if they had fired Avery before contemplating trading Devin. The team with Avery as the HC and Devin as the starting PG was done. Avery had lost them at that point.
I would definitely try a Manu (plus something else to atract even more attention from the Raptors) for Bosh (suposing that the "Bosh is on the move" rumours are real)
Manu in '05 >>> Manu in '08 - even if the stats say other wise.
I disagree.
More spectacular because of his playoff run, but Manu was absolutely dominant before the injury in '08.
I still laugh every time I envision the performance he put on against LeBron in Cleveland..
Some of those shots were just ridiculous.
The thing is there are a whole lot of players in the league that is just as talented or is better than Manu was in his prime at least scoring wise. Manu's problem is playing well consistently and we can play this game of what if he wasn't the third scoring option on this team and had more than 10 or 11 shots but it's going to be hard to tell what he'd do. Like everyone said he's shown flashes that he could carry the Spurs team when Tim and Tony were both injured so who knows. The thing that Manu's best at is knowing what the team needs (whether it's a steal, block, scoring, FT) and providing it at the right time when the team needs it. He's better at doing the little stuff that doesn't get noticed but does make a difference so he's probably better as a second or third option.
Spurs top scorer that season, IIRC.I disagree.
More spectacular because of his playoff run, but Manu was absolutely dominant before the injury in '08.
I still laugh every time I envision the performance he put on against LeBron in Cleveland..
Some of those shots were just ridiculous.
Yup.
OK, I think it's a bit much to call Devin Harris Leandro Barbosa with a jump shot.....Barbosa doesn't have anywhere near the handles Harris does. Barbosa is basically a quick version of Roger Mason.
Yeah, I think you're right. He's definitely a lot more polished than Barbosa.
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