The last refuge of a liberal

[Blackjack]

bloomberg has already explained this in detail. the plan is over a year old. its not that hard to research.

if you wanted to.

Que?

[DarrinS]

DarrinS claims to be a debunker, but his ironic pose is little discernible from the sincerity it eagerly imitates.

Who talks like this?

[Yonivore]

Who talks like this?

Barack's teleprompter.

[Blake]

I realize there are a lot of like-minded people here but how is this all that confusing (my view, that is)?

Several posters have tried to clarify your view for you. I'm not sure why you continue to be so confused.

My words have been distorted, misrepresented, misunderstood (possibly by some just coming to this late and not reading the OP) and led to some rather ridiculous and inconsequential questioning. Thus, I began to have some fun trolling Nancy. He deserved it, as he displayed an enormous amount of butthurt stemming from this part of the inital OP.

So instead of answering questions requiring clarification regarding your posts, you got frustrated, butthurt and went into troll mode.

I don't do butthurt and have shown no evidence of such in this thread.

You however have just verified yourself to be a pussy, vaginia.

He apparently took offense, as he felt the shoe fit.

I don't take offense to lame 5th grade level name calling. Assumption fail.

A lot of people seem to be preaching tolerance by way of intolerance and ignorance. What exactly is that when you generalize, stereotype and lump ALL whom oppose or you simply don't understand, as being the same?

If you are referring to me, I have done no such thing.

Reading comprehension fail.

I never said -- not once -- that racism, Islamaphobia, stupidity or whatever you want to say along those lines, didn't have its part. Only that it's a PART, not the whole picture.

So as long as it's only a "PART", it's acceptable for you?

Nancy broad-brush-painted ALL whom oppose his view (one I share, as it pertains to the building of the mosque) as having to ALL fall into his neat little bigoted categories;

Monumental reading comprehension and/or assumption fail

I've actually come to my opinion/views by way of anecdotal evidence from a portion of the opposition. Yet, all that's been asked since is: how is it that you can respect a portion of the opposition's views; or how are these people morally conflicted?

Really?

Really.

How are these people morally conflicted?

Is racism, Islamophobia and stupidity morally acceptable for you as long as it is only a "PART" of the whole picture?

The burden of proof falls on the person with actual anecdotal evidence and not the one making complete generalizations of an ENTIRE segment of the population?

I have very clearly stated that all I have seen so far is racism and Islamophobia as reasons to oppose the community center being built.

I have never once claimed that those are the only reasons.

You have said there is more to it than those.

The burden of proof is on you, vaginia.

One last time:

doubtful

I know, for a fact, some good people who disagree with me and oppose the community center. They believe this can only end up as kindle to the fire for those who perpetrated the acts of 9-11's brethren and that it will inevitably become another recruiting tool.

Please explain how this is anything but fear of the Muslims.

They believe the developers aren't showing the proper sensitivity under the cir stance, which has led to some resentment -- I've been asked on multiple occasions why it is they have to build there when there's a mosque within 4 blocks, the logistics (where the Muslim community is largely based and how the commute makes little-to-no sense) and the fact that there were plenty of available places to develop the community center that would never have brought 9-11 into the equation. I could only say it didn't factor into my decision; but it didn't seem to be utterly unreasonable or outlandish questioning.

What do these people believe are the motives for Muslims building a community center near Ground Zero?

I personally believe this is a great opportunity for the American-Muslim and, specifically, the Mideastern Muslim-American. No one in their right mind would tell you someone seemingly in the "right" should have to go out of their way to exercise their rights

They absolutely should not have to go out of their way for racists or Islamophobes.

but this is the real world -- there's never black/white, cut/dried or anything without nuance. Fact of the matter is, a lot of times in life you have to put yourself out there and put a little more effort into things than you should if you really want to be understood, accepted and hopefully, embraced by all fair-minded individuals. So for those that want to keep this in the classroom and say this is "right" and this is "wrong," have at it. Ain't nothing fair or that easy in the real world.

So you are giving these opposers a pass because there is a gray murky area that you would rather not take the effort to clear up and make right. You apparently are ok with them staying in the gray.

There is a black and white, vaginia. Stop being a pussy and recognize that racism, ignorance and Islamophobia even in "PART" is wrong.

If the people want to diffuse the situation down at the community center, all they have to do is put a little extra effort into the assimilation of their people. Embrace 9-11. Commemorate something on or outside the community center and show the acts of 9-11 could -- and never should -- be confused with Islam. Make it unmistakeably clear that the acts were an affront to Islam as much as 9-11 (taking any kind of victory from the extremists who'd try to claim one -- the ones causing consternation with some decent people). A good-faith show of solidarity to their American brethren. A simple gesture.

Not that they need to, but they are putting in a 9-11 memorial on site.

Islamphobia, ignorance and anything else that involves a lack of understanding or misplaced fear can be corrected with the proper light and knowledge. Hate is hate, there's no getting around those people, but there are plenty of people that could still see the light or be won over. Why not make the effort? (It sure beats the out of having to defend where you choose to practice, display, build and live the life you choose at every corner.)

I agree.

You should stop condoning such behavior.

Should they or anyone else have to do something like that when they're seemingly in the "right?" No.

Right. No.

Would they and the rest of the country stand to benefit if they did? Absolutely.

They? They would benefit by appeasing some of the Islamophobes, possibly keeping them off their back.

The rest of the country benefiting? Imo, no.

We would all be better off if everyone would just stfu and let them construct their perfectly legal community center complete with prayer center in peace.

This is why never gets done. Ignorance and stubbornness is a disease, and it happens to plague the human race more now than at any other time in my lifetime . . .

And it doesn't help anyone when you condone it, even if it is just "PART" of the whole picture.

[Winehole23]

Barack's teleprompter.

Just suplexed boutons in the Repuglan thread. You suck at this.

[Blake]

It simply comes down to unintended consequence. Unintended, but consequence just the same -- that is, the potential for anything sinister to be gained from the victims and memory of 9-11 (i.e. a possible recruitment tool for extremists and the potential that they could claim any kind of victory or satisfaction from this community center).

You really don't know what Islamophobia is.

I really wish Bloomberg and the Imam, , get Giuliani for the photo-op, would open this son on 9-11 with a commemoration to the fallen and that the good people of this community center could be viewed in a positive light. They just need to be seen and made human and not the foreign en y they're perceived to be now. They need to put a face to all of this and have their voice heard in the right setting, one where there's no need to be on the defense, just fellow Americans trying to live their life. They need to be seen and heard for who they are, not who or what people have been made to believe or have misunderstood -- rhetoric tends to change and even soften when there's an actual face to be seen and a clear voice to be heard.

They are putting in a 9-11 memorial.

It's sad that people like you feel they need to do so.

As far as I'm concerned, they've apparently met all requirements to build and I have no reason to believe the people of this center are anything other than Americans simply practicing their religion -- something this country was founded upon.

But you don't fault people that believe otherwise.

It's not about validity or what you or I to deem to be the right thing, it's simply disagreeing without being disagreeable. Respecting one's view, even if not shared. Respecting it not for their belief or conclusion but because you know it comes from a good person without hate or malice or prejudice.

If it isn't coming from hate or prejudice, where is it coming from?

You mentioned emotion. Yes, that's a HUGE part of it. And while emotion is most often without rational thought, it largely genuine, pure. So long as that purity doesn't come from a hateful and intolerant place, it's something that should be respected -- who are we to judge how someone else is affected by an event such as 9-11?

Nobody is judging how someone else is affected by 9-11.

I'm asking why someone else is judging others for putting in a community center near Ground Zero.

It may be wrong and it may be misguided but the people that I'm speaking to are pure and genuine in their opposition, not racists or bigots.

Pure, genuine Islamophobic feelings.

That's all this has ever been about. I choose to give the people of this community center and the good people I disagree with the benefit of a doubt. Some simply can't, for whatever reason.

I can't because the only reasons I can come up with are racism and Islamophobia.

I'm not saying those are the only reasons. I'm asking you what other reasons there are.

You haven't come up with any other reasons either.

Ask your friends what their reasons are for opposing the community center and get back with us, vaginia.

[Blackjack]

Several posters have tried to clarify your view for you. I'm not sure why you continue to be so confused.



So instead of answering questions requiring clarification regarding your posts, you got frustrated, butthurt and went into troll mode.

I don't do butthurt and have shown no evidence of such in this thread.

You however have just verified yourself to be a pussy, vaginia.



I don't take offense to lame 5th grade level name calling. Assumption fail.



If you are referring to me, I have done no such thing.

Reading comprehension fail.



So as long as it's only a "PART", it's acceptable for you?




Monumental reading comprehension and/or assumption fail



Really.

How are these people morally conflicted?

Is racism, Islamophobia and stupidity morally acceptable for you as long as it is only a "PART" of the whole picture?



I have very clearly stated that all I have seen so far is racism and Islamophobia as reasons to oppose the community center being built.

I have never once claimed that those are the only reasons.

You have said there is more to it than those.

The burden of proof is on you, vaginia.



doubtful



Please explain how this is anything but fear of the Muslims.




What do these people believe are the motives for Muslims building a community center near Ground Zero?



They absolutely should not have to go out of their way for racists or Islamophobes.



So you are giving these opposers a pass because there is a gray murky area that you would rather not take the effort to clear up and make right. You apparently are ok with them staying in the gray.

There is a black and white, vaginia. Stop being a pussy and recognize that racism, ignorance and Islamophobia even in "PART" is wrong.



Not that they need to, but they are putting in a 9-11 memorial on site.



I agree.

You should stop condoning such behavior.



Right. No.



They? They would benefit by appeasing some of the Islamophobes, possibly keeping them off their back.

The rest of the country benefiting? Imo, no.

We would all be better off if everyone would just stfu and let them construct their perfectly legal community center complete with prayer center in peace.



And it doesn't help anyone when you condone it, even if it is just "PART" of the whole picture.

Listen, Blake (thanks to you, I do actually know your name since you were nice enough to point me in the direction in which it was displayed), let's not confuse me deciding to troll you and deciding to respond to 2 or 3 others that had similar questions as me not giving up on you. I have -- at least as it pertains to this topic. I had some downtime that led to boredom, decided to try and have a conversation with the Politicals and found myself being confronted with either a troll-job, some serious condescension, possible butthurt and/or disingenuous questioning and logic. I made my point, then had some fun when the conversation became a nonsensical argument of the semantical realm: Why is it, or how is it a moral issue? (As if good people couldn't wrestle with the prospect of unintended consequence besmirching the memory of those that lost their lives on 9-11 -- or you simply moved the goal posts to suggest I had been excusing ALL who oppose as having that view and not a portion you seem to believe can't and doesn't exist, even when presented with some anecdotal evidence that it does.)

Again, lets look at the facts.

I said this:

Right in that the lemmings result to name-calling and dismissing any opposing viewpoint, whilst claiming to be liberal, open-minded thinkers; wrong in believeing the mosque/community center shouldn't be built.

You answered with this:

apparently Blackjack "results" to name-calling as well.

I do it too for sure. I just wanted to point out the irony in BJ's post. It's so good.

And you've just suggested I resorted to name-calling from the start.

I never called you, anyone on this board or anyone specifically a lemming, I defined what a lemming to be. You apparently took offense, there's simply no logical reason to believe otherwise -- there's also apparently good reason why you don't find the irony in painting an entire segment of the population as being racist, Islamaphobic or stupid without any evidence to prove it: Generalizations, stereotypes and, yes, bigotry, is not a good way to extol one's tolerance, intelligence and open-mindedness.

That's irony -- not me calling lemmings "lemmings."

[Blake]

Listen, Blake (thanks to you, I do actually know your name since you were nice enough to point me in the direction in which it was displayed), let's not confuse me deciding to troll you and deciding to respond to 2 or 3 others that had similar questions as me not giving up on you. I have -- at least as it pertains to this topic.

I'm not confused.

You made it clear that you couldn't take it any more and went into troll mode.

You are clearly a pussy.

I had some downtime that led to boredom, decided to try and have a conversation with the Politicals and found myself being confronted with either a troll-job, some serious condescension, possible butthurt and/or disingenuous questioning and logic.

Nothing disingenuous about my questioning your posts.

Definite butthurt on you part.

I made my point, then had some fun when the conversation became a nonsensical argument of the semantical realm: Why is it, or how is it a moral issue?

It's not an argument. It's a question asking you to back up the claim you made and to clarify what you mean by moral issue.

It's not confusing at all.

I have had my fun watching you trying to justify others' fear of Muslims and melt down into troll mode after failing to do so.

(As if good people couldn't wrestle with the prospect of unintended consequence besmirching the memory of those that lost their lives on 9-11 -- or you simply moved the goal posts to suggest I had been excusing ALL who oppose as having that view and not a portion you seem to believe can't and doesn't exist, even when presented with some anecdotal evidence that it does.)

I haven't moved any goal posts.

The questions remain the same.

What more is it, if it's not Islamophobia or racism?

Everything you have described falls into at least one of those two catgories. You apparently are too stupid to realize it.

Again, lets look at the facts.

I said this:



You answered with this:

Yes, I was making fun of the way you used the word "results" when you meant to say "resorts".

It wasn't really that funny but I just threw it out there any way.

And you've just suggested I resorted to name-calling from the start.

I never called you, anyone on this board or anyone specifically a lemming, I defined what a lemming to be.

You referred to others as "lemmings", thus calling them names making you a name caller.

Pretty simple.

You apparently took offense, there's simply no logical reason to believe otherwise --

Assumption fail.

Logic fail.

Apparently these are par for the course for you.

there's also apparently good reason why you don't find the irony in painting an entire segment of the population as being racist, Islamaphobic or stupid without any evidence to prove it: Generalizations, stereotypes and, yes, bigotry, is not a good way to extol one's tolerance, intelligence and open-mindedness.

That's irony -- not me calling lemmings "lemmings."

There's no irony.

I'm not painting an entire segment as being racist, etc. I'm very much open to hearing other possibilities.

The examples you have provided though have been proven to be mostly Islamophobic and have failed accordingly.

More reading comprehension fail.

[Blackjack]

I agree to disagree. I respect your opinion -- as wrong-minded and counterproductive as I believe it to be.

That is, until you give me reason to believe otherwise, then I'll result to labeling you properly.

[Blackjack]

Wow, I just actually read those last two retorts.

Typo smack and pussy smack, whilst (that one was for you Chump ) claiming the other's butthurt.

And lol:

I'm not painting an entire segment as being racist, etc. I'm very much open to hearing other possibilities.

Then why are you so adamant they are?

The examples you have provided though have been proven to be mostly Islamophobic and have failed accordingly.

Of terrorists?

[Blake]

I agree to disagree. I respect your opinion -- as wrong-minded and counterproductive as I believe it to be.

What exactly do you think my opinion is?

Your opinion is that people should be allowed to be against the community center if their racism or Islamophobia is only "PART" of the big picture, because you think we don't live in a world of black and white.

That is, until you give me reason to believe otherwise, then I'll result to labeling you properly.

Until you prove otherwise, I will continue to label as you as an idiot that doesn't know how to identify Islamophobes.

[Blake]

Wow, I just actually read those last two retorts.

Typo smack and pussy smack, whilst (that one was for you Chump ) claiming the other's butthurt.

you don't know how to identify someone who is butthurt either.

Butthurt posters melt down into lol troll mode without reason, start name calling and posting what they think are hilarious pictures.

Then why are you so adamant they are?

I am adamant that there are people out there that oppose the community center that are Islamopobic or racist. Do you disagree that there are people like this?

Again, I will ask the question......again........

If there is more to it than Islamophobia or racism........what is it?

It's not me painting a broad stroke.....it's me asking you to back up the claim.

I have no problem believing you that there is more to it than Islamophobia or racism........just provide proof of such.

Very simple.

Of terrorists?

Why are you associating terrorists with a Muslim community center?

You really don't know what Islamophobic means.....

[Blackjack]

I don't know what butthurt is, says the man who comes back with responses like that.

Listen, Blake, seriously (no bull , troll or otherwise), this back and forth doesn't bother me one bit. You got trolled because you were deemed to be impossible to converse with on the issue. I've got nothing against you or anything to that effect.

Boiled down, it seems the biggest point of contention you have with the decent people I've mentioned is their view of morality or something they could perceive to be insensitive to the victims of 9-11 (and note that "or" part, it's been there from the first post).

So I'll ask you a question that needs no response from me or anyone else, just your opinion. If you differ, you differ. Just an opinion.

If you believe you're in the "right" to do something but there could -- and probably would -- be some negative unintended consequences for you doing so, are you posed with any kind of moral dilemma?

Honest question. That seems to be where you differ with the aforementioned and the reason I'm able to respect their opposition, even in complete disagreement.

[Blackjack]

Your opinion is that people should be allowed to be against the community center if their racism or Islamophobia is only "PART" of the big picture, because you think we don't live in a world of black and white.

For the posters not named Blake, is this the view my posts would suggest, that racism and Islamaphobia only be part of their reasoning; or did I suggest that their are separate groups within the opposition and the one that I was speaking to had nothing to do with racism or Islamaphobia?

That's a completely honest question. If I've failed to make my opinion known clearly, I'd like to know.

[Winehole23]

If you believe you're in the "right" to do something but there could -- and probably would -- be some negative unintended consequences for you doing so, are you posed with any kind of moral dilemma?

Do property rights and religious freedom for Muslims involve any kind of moral dilemma, since there would probably be negative unintended consequences for respecting them?

[Blackjack]

Do property rights and religious freedom for Muslims involve any kind of moral dilemma, since there would probably be negative unintended consequences for respecting them?

Like what, being called a terrorist sympathizer by some asshat?

[Winehole23]

That would be one. I thought you were alluding to the possibility of future violence at or around the GZM.

[clambake]

i'm sure oj thought his murders were moral.

[Winehole23]

When Fox News reported on this initially a year ago, nobody much cared. Laura Ingraham even gave it a laconic thumbs up.

What changed?

[clambake]

When Fox News reported on this initially a year ago, nobody much cared. Laura Ingraham even gave it a laconic thumbs up.

What changed?

the sheep have ears.

[Blackjack]

That would be one. I thought you were alluding to the possibility of future violence at or around the GZM.

Well, in all honesty, I was just in' around.

Simply put, if you're in charge of this community center, the Imam even, and you know full well you're in the "right" to go forward with the project -- and you know full-well there's definitely the potential for this to be used as a recruitment tool or fuel to the fire of the perpetrators of 9-11's brethren -- do you not have any kind of pause? Any kind of conflicting feelings/moral dilemmas under this particular sensitive cir stance? (And this particular cir stance has everything to do with why it is there are some legitimately conflicted people.)

i'm sure oj thought his murders were moral.

Props. Didn't expect to see Juice mentioned in this thread.

[Blackjack]

When Fox News reported on this initially a year ago, nobody much cared. Laura Ingraham even gave it a laconic thumbs up.

What changed?

"Thumbs up," all of a sudden reminded me of flipping through the channels and seeing her start off O'Reilly's show with that ridiculous point he always does at the top of the program.

[clambake]

Well, in all honesty, I was just in' around.

Simply put, if you're in charge of this community center, the Imam even, and you know full well you're in the "right" to go forward with the project -- and you know full-well there's definitely the potential for this to be used as a recruitment tool or fuel to the fire of the perpetrators of 9-11's brethren -- do you not have any kind of pause? Any kind of conflicting feelings/moral dilemmas under this particular sensitive cir stance? (And this particular cir stance has everything to do with why it is there are some legitimately conflicted people.)

it will be a recruitment tool when a handful of knuckledraggers attempt to blow it up.

Props. Didn't expect to see Juice mentioned in this thread.

i think you've alluded to the idea that if someone believes in their position enough, then its somehow moral.

[Mikesatx]

For the posters not named Blake, is this the view my posts would suggest, that racism and Islamaphobia only be part of their reasoning; or did I suggest that their are separate groups within the opposition and the one that I was speaking to had nothing to do with racism or Islamaphobia?

That's a completely honest question. If I've failed to make my opinion known clearly, I'd like to know.

Here is what I have gotten from the exchange:

Blake: If you are against the mosque you are an Islamaphobe.

Blackjack: I agree, but don't be so quick to judge. People are forming opinions based off of what they know. Don't be quick to judge they are just uninformed.


You are both right

[Blackjack]

it will be a recruitment tool when a handful of knuckledraggers attempt to blow it up.

If you're asking my opinion, it'll be a recruitment tool for terrorists so long as there's no significant outreach from the community center to the opposition that could be won over. There'd have to be some kind of clear statement and declaration that the perpetrators of 9-11 were indeed extremists and their actions were an affront to Islam and the people of this project, just the same as any other American. Unfortunate as that is.

There's a fair amount of opposition that could be won over and that's about the only way I could see it being done given how heated and emotional the project has become (on both sides). No one should ever have to prove a negative or be forced to defend a just cause, but it doesn't mean plenty haven't had to or that many won't have to now and in the future -- this has been the case for just about any minority in history. It's the nature of the beast in the real world, not some theoretical argument that takes place in a vacuum.

If you're chillin' over on the border of Pakistan and Afghanistan (or wherever your terrorizin' ass happens to find yourself), you're ecstatic there's any kind of unrest. And now that it's become the lightning rod of an issue it has, it's a big ol' F-U to the Americans if it's built (and sign that their cause was and is just); or it's an affront to Islam and the latest act of the Zionist oppressor striking once again if it's not. They're going to spin it whatever possible way they can.

i think you've alluded to the idea that if someone believes in their position enough, then its somehow moral.

Nope.

Here is what I have gotten from the exchange:

Blake: If you are against the mosque you are an Islamaphobe.

Blackjack: I agree, but don't be so quick to judge. People are forming opinions based off of what they know. Don't be quick to judge they are just uninformed.


You are both right

If that's the takeaway from what I've written, that ain't a good sign (and I'm not sure if it's for me or the reader).

I think it's been made pretty clear that Blake believes anyone against the building of the mosque is racist, Islamaphobic or a moron, essentially.

I believe there are portions and pockets of legitimate and illegitimate opposition. I don't believe all objections and objectors are the same, and I certainly don't believe they're all racists or Islamaphobes -- not all objection comes from hate or fear.

From what I've gathered in anecdotal evidence and what the polls seem to suggest, it's that most don't want this thing built (something like 70% would prefer it at least be done elsewhere) and a little less than most (60% or so) believe they have the right to, thus they'll tolerate it. That leaves roughly 10% who just couldn't reconcile with the same issues that have 70% of the country thinking it's at least in bad taste or insensitive.

Does that automatically make that 10% racist or Islamaphobic? I don't believe so. I'm much more apt to believe racists and Islamaphobes are what they are from the jump. Seems pretty reasonable to deduce that the 10% unable to reconcile with their unease are just genuinely conflicted and it's left them opposing. (And the numbers are inconsequential, it's only a way of making a point.)

So if you're an American that falls in that particular 10% and are asking yourself, "How is it that the people of this community center could choose to build in such a sacred and sensitive place and not be mindful enough to the unintended consequences -- even if it's nary the possibility the victims of 9-11 could have their memory dishonored or besmirched -- not to build elsewhere when there were seemingly better options available (for all involved)?"

Is that racist or fearful of a people ... or is it simply believing this project isn't in the "right," even if they've got the right to?

I don't believe that's racist or Islamaphobic. I simply believe it's wrong -- they're allowing what they believe to be "right" and "wrong" (their morality) to supersede the law of the land.