Yes, contrary to what Christians believer, disproving evolution, abiogenesis, or the big bang theory doesn't prove the existence of God, nor does using the Bible.
Can you show your proof that God does not exist? No you cannot and while I believe in God proving it is a matter of faith to me. While I cannot show you definite proof that would satisfy you I tend to see God's work all around me. The birth of my children is one but I don't think you'd understand why I feel that way.
Every time. Gotdamn.
I. made. no. such. claim.
Normally I'd post in this thread and have identical posts to redzero about how there's no logical proof of god, the burden of proof is on people to prove god etc., but man it's not worth it. People have their beliefs and no one is gonna change them. It only creates negative energy for yourself to argue ferociously in circles like this. I would know moreso than anyone else.
I was fidsta say. I also don't care what anyone believes in. As long as you don't bother me by talking about it.
Only person? I know at least 4 people at my job like that.
And everytime I say it is a matter of Faith.Every time. Gotdamn.
I. made. no. such. claim.
Yay for you!And everytime I say it is a matter of Faith.
There will be another thread like this in the days to come.
Joe, can you show us proof that there is no Zeus?
Negatives like that cannot be proven. You have the burden of proof.
I was addressing the fact that you claimed GOD created evil… My answer was that He did not. I introduced Satan into the picture because He’s the one who created evil. You can’t set the terms of my explanation, and then expect my answer to fit squarely within your preconceived one… it’s like charging me with the task to produce water but then telling me that I’m not allowed to use hydrogen or oxygen atoms in doing so…
While “the conditions necessary for evil are there” you can’t attribute GOD with evil’s existence. Explained below.
GOD created all the matter, energy, dimensions, realms and rules that exist (in our universe). But because the other en ies GOD created (angels, mankind) were given and imbued with Free Will as well they too have the power to both reason and create...
Your assumption that GOD creates and has created everything is flawed. That’s your disconnect, right there. Satan created evil and so too man is capable of producing evil. GOD has sovereign Free Will, and we do too… the only difference is that we weren’t also imbued with almighty power or dominion over the laws of nature (the very construct GOD created to cater to our physical existence). Most theologians would agree that this is one of the truths that is conveyed by the notion that “we were created in His image”.
From a purely physical standpoint hasn’t man also managed to manufacture all sorts of “man-made” products, from buildings and structures, to trinkets and molecules? Unnatural products (such as plastics, alloys, ceramics, hybridized plants, pharmaceuticals, etc...)? It’s the same principle. All the matter that we use to create such man-made materials clearly exists before we transform it... we then can mold it to our liking with a little ‘creativity,’ knowledge, energy and the will power to do so.
Was not the first task GOD charged Adam with one to name all the creatures in His Creation??? Surely GOD could have done so Himself… but He chose to task Adam with that assignment. GOD did not name the creatures in His Creation; He chose to delegate that authority to Adam. Adam used his own creativity.
Conversely, no one would go around saying GOD built the Eiffel Tower or the Statue of Liberty, or the Ferrari’s parked in Jordan’s garage... Obviously, we did, humans. Speaking of cars... specifically the assembly-line concept... would not the designer be blamed for failures to produce quality products? The answer in that case would be yes, because all the robotic movements and tasks (perhaps shotty workmanship) were directly programmed by the designer (the drone effect). Everything they do has been predefined by the designer. In other words, the assembly-line’s robotic arms aren’t imbued with the capacity to create or mess up for themselves... nor do they have the capacity to reason and make choices of their own.
Fact is humans are able to do whatever they want to while operating under the framework governed by the universe's physical rules (i.e. gravity, time, etc...). Those rules however, don’t stop us from committing heinous acts, because we operate out of our own volition. So if GOD doesn’t control us, he certainly can’t be responsible for everything. As you can tell, I don’t prescribe to a pre-deterministic view of GOD.
Based on what I’ve written, I’ve already addressed your first question…
Answering the second question is not as direct. But let me ask you this? How would you appreciate a sunny day if it were always sunny? Or rain, if it were always raining??? The answer is you couldn’t. Likewise, we wouldn’t be able to appreciate GOD’s goodness if everything in our lives were always peachy.
Because things such as evil, pain and suffering exist in our lives is that we can be genuinely grateful for GOD’s Love and Grace. Mind you GOD didn't create the conditions for this end, and He never intended to, but because they do exist we can worship Him for who He really is. Speaking of pain and suffering, He can now relate to our ‘plight’ because He carried the weight of the world on His shoulders, and endured more burdens than what we could ever be able to endure – as a human.
I know no answer I give on the matter is going to satisfy you because you’ve tacitly implied that this scenario somehow diminishes GOD’s character or His power. Fact of the matter is (and I’ve stated this on other occasions), that by giving us Free Will GOD was taking a risk... He chose it that way. If we chose to worship Him out of our own volition that would be greater than forcing us to worship him. He doesn’t want drones. Obviously it pains Him to know that others outright reject Him, but that result was embedded in the risk. All risks have casualties. We don’t ever think of GOD as taking risks (given Einstein’s rather famous quote), but He certainly took a risk on mankind.
Last edited by Phenomanul; 09-09-2010 at 06:34 PM.
And the following conversation will most likely take place:
there is proof of God all around usreally? what proof?prove he doesn't exist!wait....what?
why didn't he just skip earth and create us in heaven?
so God is not omniscient...We don’t ever think of GOD as taking risks (given Einstein’s rather famous quote), but He certainly took a risk on mankind.
yet another Biblical contradiction.
Only in your feeble framework... The Apostle John already saw what will happen on Judgement Day... the destruction of the anti-Christ and the false Prophet... those events have yet to transpire with reference to our timeline.
So too it would follow that GOD is not constrained by linear time.
Yet another case of your lack of comprehension. The "risk" I was talking about was losing some of His creation to the clutches of satan's deceit... But that choice is still up to us... GOD won't make the choices for us; especially not the choice to choose or reject Him. Nevertheless, He is able to see beyond the consequences of each of our choices. He can see the finality of every possibility. Infinite possibillities notwithstanding... It's a temporal conundrum we can't wrap our minds around.
Should GOD wish to know the Names of those that will ultimately choose Him however all He has to do is open the Book of Life... But He's chosen a date to do so, and that date (from the reference of our timeline) has not yet come... after all isn't self imposed control, not also a sign of sovereignty and authority??? GOD follows His own rules; that speaks volumes of His character...
tsk... tsk... tsk... twist away....
Last edited by Phenomanul; 09-09-2010 at 08:16 PM.
I didn't ask when. I asked why.
Only in your feeble framework... The Apostle John already saw what will happen on Judgement Day... the destruction of the anti-Christ and the false Prophet... those events have yet to transpire with reference to our timeline.
So too it would follow that GOD is not constrained by linear time.
Why did you take another shot at me?
Does it really hurt you that much when I point out the fallacies in Christianity that you have to act non-Christian?
angel_luv never stooped to your level.
there's no twist.Yet another case of your lack of comprehension. The "risk" I was talking about was losing some of His creation to the clutches of satan's deceit... But that choice is still up to us... GOD won't make the choices for us; especially not the choice to choose or reject Him. Nevertheless, He is able to see beyond the consequences of each of our choices. He can see the finality of every possibility. Infinite possibillities notwithstanding... It's a temporal conundrum we can't wrap our minds around. Should He wish to know the Names of those that will ultimately choose Him however all he has to do is open the Book of Life... But he's chosen a date to do so, and that date from the reference of our timeline has not yet come... after all isn't self imposed control, not also a sign of sovereignty and authority??? GOD follows His own rules; that speaks volumes of His character...
tsk... tsk... tsk... twist away....
If someone is all-knowing, then by default, they take no risks.
God makes the rules up as he goes along from Genesis to Revelation.
You've pointed out nothing but your inability to grasp what I just explained...
The one changing the rules as he goes is none other than you.
As for angel_luv... "turning the other cheek" did wonders for her... Which is why you and others still mock her 'til this day... even when as you say, she was offenseless...
That said,
I'm pretty sure Jesus called the Pharisees vipers, white-washed tombs and ravenous wolves... among other things... in defense of His Father's kingdom....
Does the fact that I will stoop to your level bother you? That I respond -for-tat? You've always conducted yourself with a venomous at ude on these forums... it only follows that you are worthy of being called a sniveling snake.
That's only by your rigid definition of 'risk'... and no, GOD doesn't make the rules up along the way... He interacts with us, affording us the ability to influence his path forward (while still retaining His full sovereignty)...
Besides, who are you to box GOD in when you don't even believe He exists? That's lunacy.
Last edited by Phenomanul; 09-09-2010 at 09:19 PM.
Except that a sequence of 13 spades does not have the power to do anything of its own. Genetic sequences do. That's your disconnect, and ultimately why Mr. Searns' analogy is incongruent with the reality of genetics.
We are here... (GOD did it)... it happened...
We are here... (infinite recombinations of random tweaking molecules occurring in 'broths' that don't exist gave rise to life... genetic information diversified gaining new information and massive complexity along the way giving rise to humans and all other life... the process by which that happens... though 99.9999999% deleterious to the creation of new information happened to create all the genetic richness we see today within a mater of 4 billion years [technically millions of years if you count the Cambrian explosion of genetic information])... it happened....
I'll take the simpler answer.
Fact is you have placed your faith in that one day we will be able to identify a naturalistic process that gave rise to life... unfortunately it doesn't exist, given the fact that the genetic monomers can't all co-exist under any set of conditions that would not be created by biological systems themselves...
Last edited by Phenomanul; 09-10-2010 at 12:36 AM.
you don't even grasp what you are trying to say.
You've pointed out nothing but your inability to grasp what I just explained...
The one changing the rules as he goes is none other than you.
I'm not sure God can grasp what you are trying to say.
angel_luv said plenty of things that were crazy, but I never mocked her for her beliefs.As for angel_luv... "turning the other cheek" did wonders for her... Which is why you and others still mock her 'til this day... even when as you say, she was offenseless...
I am mocking you for your whining about me and your hypocrisy in claiming to be a Christian when you instead act like a complete jackass.
Nothing you say bothers me. It's a silly messageboard.That said,
I'm pretty sure Jesus called the Pharisees vipers, white-washed tombs and ravenous wolves... among other things... in defense of His Father's kingdom....
Does the fact that I will stoop to your level bother you? That I respond -for-tat? You've always conducted yourself with a venomous at ude on these forums... it only follows that you are worthy of being called a sniveling snake.
I just like to point out what a proven butthurt hypocrite you are.
wtf?That's only by your rigid definition of 'risk'... and no, GOD doesn't make the rules up along the way... He interacts with us, affording us the ability to influence his path forward (while still retaining His full sovereignty)...
define risk.
I'm not boxing in God. I'm simply pointing out the inherent contradiction in your assumption that God creating mankind was a "risk"..........by whatever loose definition you think you can come up with.Besides, who are you to box GOD in when you don't even believe He exists? That's lunacy.
Textbook.
Your point? The chances are still extremely low, no matter what the outcome.
Really? Do you know that there would be no genetic sequences if the universe came into being any other way?Genetic sequences do. That's your disconnect, and ultimately why Mr. Searns' analogy is incongruent with the reality of genetics.
Prove it.We are here... (GOD did it)... it happened...
Okay.We are here... (infinite recombinations of random tweaking molecules occurring in 'broths' that don't exist gave rise to life... genetic information diversified gaining new information and massive complexity along the way giving rise to humans and all other life... the process by which that happens... though 99.9999999% deleterious to the creation of new information happened to create all the genetic richness we see today within a mater of 4 billion years [technically millions of years if you count the Cambrian explosion of genetic information])... it happened....
"It was magic" will never be an answer. Period.I'll take the simpler answer.
I can say that the Flying Spaghetti Monster did it. Would I be wrong?
I don't use faith. Faith is what people use when they have no excuse to believe what they do. Abiogenesis and the Big Bang theory can be subjected to empirical analysis; the claim that a supernatural being did it can never be investigated. Faith has nothing to do with it.Fact is you have placed your faith in that one day we will be able to identify a naturalistic process that gave rise to life...
I am not making the claim that scientists will one day find undeniable proof of how the universe came into being. I don't know. However, the difference between you and me is that I can look at the evidence and reasonably come to the conclusion that further proof will be found. You, on the other hand, state that you know for a fact that a supernatural being created the universe. You claim to know the answer, and yet you have presented zero evidence to support your claim.
Watch this video:
Yet, we are all here. There is more evidence for evolution, abiogenesis and the big bang theory than there is for any supernatural being. You have nothing at all to back up your claim. Nothing.unfortunately it doesn't exist, given the fact that the genetic monomers can't all co-exist under any set of conditions that would not be created by biological systems themselves...
I can say that an invisible pink unicorn sneezed the universe into existence. Would I be wrong? If I said that a million gods created the universe, would I be wrong?
Saying that God did it isn't really answering any questions. People thought angry gods created lightning until a scientific explanation was found. Science has given us explanations for natural phenomena over the past 300+ years. It stands to reason to believe that more, better explanations will be found. Unlike you, I don't look for absolute answers for everything. If I do not know, I will claim that I do not know. If scientists do not know, they will claim that they do not know. They would not say, "Well, we can't find an answer, so X did it." They will continue to look for the answer.
Hate to say it, but great post.
The better question here should be is why should one have to believe in God?
Put yourself (believer or nonbeliever) in a realm were you question why you must believe in God and have a relationship with him, if he is to let you down at least a good amount of the time (unanswered prayers).
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If I've stated it on numerous occasions then you should have no problems finding those occasions. I don't think you're intellectually inferior and have never said as much. I believe you suffer from the same condition every human before you has suffered from: wanting to know how everything was created or came into being.hyperbole much?
Like I said, you're the king of the double-standard on this matter... I don't know everything and never claimed as much. Assuming intellectual high-ground is the reference basis for those on your camp who have postulated a priori that belief in GOD makes those who believe intellectually inferior... you and most others here have stated as much on numerous occasions and implied it countless of other times... your outright dismissiveness towards anything we've said (or could say) to defend our beliefs says it all...
but it's not like your persecuting our belief structure or anything...
You sit here and try to blow holes in every scientific theory saying that it can't explain the beginning as if your theory could. You fail to acknowledge that Christianity is much more logically viewed as a system of control than an actual workable theory. You fail to account for the very real anthropological reasoning for most of the bible stories and act as if they're the actual word of God.
I've never said you were dumb. I just maintain you delude yourself and for some reason act as though you have all the answers and that you can actually logically explain your belief structure.
Believe what you want but don't act as though there is any logic behind it. Thats just bull .
Oh and LOL at you and your continuous claim of persecution. No one is going to come along and crucify you no matter how much you keep trying to make it so.
One cannot prove a negative.
The burden of proof in any argument is one the people making the claim.
In this case the general claim is "God exists". The burden of proof is on the people making the claim.
Further, if one can show that the things "all around" you are possible without God creating them, that simply makes the burden of proof on those claiming "God exists" to be all the greater.
Your claim here is also essentially logically flawed, because your starting assumption is that God created everything.
Life is wonderful. My children are wonderful, and I feel the same joy in their existance and watching them learn and grow.
I just don't see some mythical force as described in a poorly translated, heavily-edited 2000+ year old book of mythology at work, no offense.
God created Satan.
Ok, now we are a step closer.
Yes or no:
Could God, being all-powerful and all wise, have reasonably foreseen that Satan, would use his free will to do evil?
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