Jakob Poeltl

[rankingtear]

This was a bad time to post this after he just got abused by Vuc. Ok he’s a top 30 player in the league now. That’s where we are at. There are 26 all stars (bc of injury) and Jak was right there at being the biggest snub. We have a top 10 PG and a top 10 Center. But we are 10 games under .500. Makes sense. Everybody else sucks so that’s why we suck. The Clippers have a better record than us but nobody on their team is Top 30. The Blazers without CJ and now Dame. The Kings for most of the year. The Pelicans obviously have a superior roster than us. Same with the Knicks

Poeltl is such a winner and so valuable that he has literally never been on a winning team as a starter. Tell me I’m wrong.

Never averaged double digit anything.

[KobesAchilles]

You cant say he's a top 10 center and then say he doesn't have enough talent around him to win. He IS the talent according to Da86. He's TOP 10 and a TOP 30 player according to some random metric. He has a higher rated player on his team in DJ. What more talent could you possibly ask for? I'm not saying championship or bust, but when the 8th seed is below .500 is it too much to ask that this amazing Top 10 center carries us to the playoffs?

Unless of course you don't think he is a Top 10 center. Unless of course being a top 10 center doesn't mean . Unless of course you don't think he's that good or that guy. I mean besides the Lakers who have 2 top 30 guys in the league, is there any other team that has 2 top 30 players and aren't even in the playoffs? Heck aren't even the 10tth seed?

Poeltl is average. He's an average rebounder, an average scorer, and when you put him against any big man with offensive ability he becomes an average defender. To say we don't need an upgrade at the big man is dumb.

[rankingtear]

You cant say he's a top 10 center and then say he doesn't have enough talent around him to win. He IS the talent according to Da86. He's TOP 10 and a TOP 30 player according to some random metric. He has a higher rated player on his team in DJ. What more talent could you possibly ask for? I'm not saying championship or bust, but when the 8th seed is below .500 is it too much to ask that this amazing Top 10 center carries us to the playoffs?

Unless of course you don't think he is a Top 10 center. Unless of course being a top 10 center doesn't mean . Unless of course you don't think he's that good or that guy. I mean besides the Lakers who have 2 top 30 guys in the league, is there any other team that has 2 top 30 players and aren't even in the playoffs? Heck aren't even the 10tth seed?

Poeltl is average. He's an average rebounder, an average scorer, and when you put him against any big man with offensive ability he becomes an average defender. To say we don't need an upgrade at the big man is dumb.

Yeah that is basically it. We have top 10 impact player on PG and C but there are a lot of top impact players on that position. There is a surplus of good PG and C so you don't really gain that much of an advantage on those two position unless they are head and shoulders above the next group of guys. That is why i am fine trading Jakob for 2 prospects and 1 pick return rumored but it looked like CHA does not want to give up the pick.

[MultiTroll]

Dunk of the Night: DeMar DeRozan (yahoo.com)

Elite rim protection.

[JeffDuncan]

…
Poeltl is average. He's an average rebounder, an average scorer, and when you put him against any big man with offensive ability he becomes an average defender. …

Which is excellent, since he’s #22 in the league for what he costs. An average player on a below-average contract is a good value. It all costs $.

To say we don't need an upgrade at the big man is dumb.

But is center the position where the Spurs should look to spend a lot of money? The best centers cost 30M, and the second tier ones cost over 20M.

[MultiTroll]

But is center the position where the Spurs should look to spend a lot of money? The best centers cost 30M, and the second tier ones cost over 20M.

Concur and none of them want to come here anyways.
Should draft and/or get serviceable for lower price or jump to mid price if talent measures and fits.

I will say the Golden gots look pathetic without at least a semi big with Donkey Green being out.

[Sugus]

Which is excellent, since he’s #22 in the league for what he costs. An average player on a below-average contract is a good value. It all costs $.




But is center the position where the Spurs should look to spend a lot of money? The best centers cost 30M, and the second tier ones cost over 20M.

I'll never understand the "fake-building up X player just to on him" shtick this board is so fond of. You hit the nail on its head... The dude makes $9m/per. Excellent value and excellent production for said value. Would I judge him the same if he made Embiid levels of money? No... And he doesn't. He's a solid player, the anchor of the Spurs' defense, a top-2 player on the team, and far from the team's biggest problems.

I've repeatedly said I'd love to have Jakob come off the bench.... In place of an Ayton-level talented C. Do you get those in FA? Not in SanAn, at least. And those kinds of C's very consistently end up going #1 or at the most, #2 in a given draft (Ayton himself, KAT, Embiid, etc). So the argument becomes, would the Spurs be wise to sink up a lot of money on the C position, on luring a FA big man to replace Jakob, when he's perfectly capable of holding the fort for the time being? No.

If the Spurs don't want to tank for it, they'll have to make do with players like Jakob, who are good but far from flawless. "top this, top that" who the cares? The guy is better than this board thinks and that's the dough. I hope the Spurs can put a better team around him and Dejounte soon, so we can see what they're actually made of (funny that I never see "what has Dejounte won" kinda posts here... why would that be...?).

[MannyIsGod]

People in this thread still really undervaluing Jakob. He's up to 5th on total RAPTOR on centers. He's a bit lower on WAR but not much. If you look at EPM and DARKO he's very high as well. He had a slump for a bit this season but he's back to playing extremely well for the Spurs.

[MannyIsGod]

I'll never understand the "fake-building up X player just to on him" shtick this board is so fond of. You hit the nail on its head... The dude makes $9m/per. Excellent value and excellent production for said value. Would I judge him the same if he made Embiid levels of money? No... And he doesn't. He's a solid player, the anchor of the Spurs' defense, a top-2 player on the team, and far from the team's biggest problems.

I've repeatedly said I'd love to have Jakob come off the bench.... In place of an Ayton-level talented C. Do you get those in FA? Not in SanAn, at least. And those kinds of C's very consistently end up going #1 or at the most, #2 in a given draft (Ayton himself, KAT, Embiid, etc). So the argument becomes, would the Spurs be wise to sink up a lot of money on the C position, on luring a FA big man to replace Jakob, when he's perfectly capable of holding the fort for the time being? No.

If the Spurs don't want to tank for it, they'll have to make do with players like Jakob, who are good but far from flawless. "top this, top that" who the cares? The guy is better than this board thinks and that's the dough. I hope the Spurs can put a better team around him and Dejounte soon, so we can see what they're actually made of (funny that I never see "what has Dejounte won" kinda posts here... why would that be...?).

Jakob too good to be a bench player honestly. Dude is going to get paid in a years time. I'm not sure if the Spurs should pay what he's going to command, but there's zero doubt in my mind that GMs see the value this guy adds and aren't going to let SA keep him for cheap. I think its pretty likely he gets traded in the offseason because of this, but dude is GOOD.

[KobesAchilles]

Which is excellent, since he’s #22 in the league for what he costs. An average player on a below-average contract is a good value. It all costs $.




But is center the position where the Spurs should look to spend a lot of money? The best centers cost 30M, and the second tier ones cost over 20M.

Tbh we need to spend money on any position not name PG. We are average to below average at every other position. Why not center? I never said Poeltl was our biggest problem but he is a problem. He isn't good enough to really make any type of difference for our future. Trading him makes the most sense. But people here act like he's worth a ton of money or a big part of our future. I'm more like Sug, I think he would be a great bench player but I don't want him as a starter

[MannyIsGod]

Tbh we need to spend money on any position not name PG. We are average to below average at every other position. Why not center? I never said Poeltl was our biggest problem but he is a problem. He isn't good enough to really make any type of difference for our future. Trading him makes the most sense. But people here act like he's worth a ton of money or a big part of our future. I'm more like Sug, I think he would be a great bench player but I don't want him as a starter

Jakob is too good to be a bench player. He's literally one of the best centers in the league. I'm just confused how you guys think we can upgrade the position in the near term. I'm not opposed to trading Jakob, but that almost certainly means we downgrade the position. The price to upgrade is very expensive. But if you think the Spurs can just upgrade at C and somehow not spend an incredibly amount of money (for a likely small upgrade, if that). Look at what Chicago and New Orleans spent to upgrade their positions and arguably both of them have centers that are no better than Jakob!

[John B]

I don’t get the argument that Poeltl is good because he’s cheap . But he’s not going to get “cheap” in the near future, and that’s make him not good anymore because he’s no longer “cheap” . GM’s are going to overpay him when that time comes. And I wish him well. Good for him. There’s a reason why there’s a talk to trade him for PJ Washington and Kai Jones. He’s “cheap” but not good enough. Don’t show me another advance metrics and top 30 list. I saw Green and White getting offensive rebounds around him. I saw we Spurs got outrebounded 53-33. Yes, that’s on the team but mostly on Poeltl

[The Truth #6]

He’s an excellent role player and who plays off the ball and doesn’t cry for the ball. And he’s affordable. That’s awesome. We need a massive upgrade in our two forward positions with scoring and rebounding.

[KobesAchilles]

Jakob is too good to be a bench player. He's literally one of the best centers in the league. I'm just confused how you guys think we can upgrade the position in the near term. I'm not opposed to trading Jakob, but that almost certainly means we downgrade the position. The price to upgrade is very expensive. But if you think the Spurs can just upgrade at C and somehow not spend an incredibly amount of money (for a likely small upgrade, if that). Look at what Chicago and New Orleans spent to upgrade their positions and arguably both of them have centers that are no better than Jakob!

He's literally NOT one of the best centers in the league. This has to stop. If he was a top guy we wouldn't be a losing team. You just aren't a loser when you have two top players at a position on your team. Unless there are injuries of course. Vuc just destroyed Jak. Would've been nice to have a guy step up and give you 25 and 16 when your best player is out with an injury like Vuc did

[Sugus]

He's literally NOT one of the best centers in the league. This has to stop. If he was a top guy we wouldn't be a losing team. You just aren't a loser when you have two top players at a position on your team. Unless there are injuries of course. Vuc just destroyed Jak. Would've been nice to have a guy step up and give you 25 and 16 when your best player is out with an injury like Vuc did

There's a lot of oversimplification in your comments, and it's clearly lending to the confusion here.

First, you absolutely can have a "top guy" on a losing team, look no further than last years' Warriors (or was it the year before? I don't remember), when Curry was hard-carrying the team and didn't even make the POs. Direct counter to your argument, and it's happened many times before. Second, "top guy" is such a nebulous term... Same as "top players at a position". I'm assuming you mean DJ too - but does he really qualify as "top player" though? He's an AS and I'm very happy for him and his potential ofc, but right now, I'm taking CP3 every time if I want to make a playoff push. Morant too, and etcetera.

Just how far on the totem pole do you have to be before you're expected to carry a team? It's nebulous and arbitrary - and made worse by the fact that there's offensive and defensive minded players, both with their pros and cons. Draymond is the perfect example - absolutely not a floor raiser and pretty useless without someone being "the guy", BUT perfectly able to elevate that guy's and his own game in the right situation, and be a tremendously valuable piece to actual winning teams. Why can't Jakob be like that? Why can't the offensive production come primarily from the other 4 players on the team? There's not a single, be-all approach to teambuilding, either - and it's not even like Jakob is a Ben Simmons, 0 points case. He's gotten better on offense. He'll never be Ayton-level nor close (hence my previous point) but he's not a negative, quite the opposite. He makes the game easier for those around him... And, of course, if those around him aren't very good to begin with, it's not going to be a very good game.

I'll get to your other comment soon, gotta work now.

[Sugus]

Tbh we need to spend money on any position not name PG. We are average to below average at every other position. Why not center? I never said Poeltl was our biggest problem but he is a problem. He isn't good enough to really make any type of difference for our future. Trading him makes the most sense. But people here act like he's worth a ton of money or a big part of our future. I'm more like Sug, I think he would be a great bench player but I don't want him as a starter

Whew, I had some more time after all.

The place where we disagree here is that I perfectly think Jakob can work as a starter, on numerous teams. Place him on the Celtics (well, back when the Celts weren't ed anyways) to clean up Tatum and Brown's misses, and he's suddenly a great help. Place him on the Dubs to set screens for Curry, and all of a sudden he's great too.... The Spurs simply don't have the talent around him to elevate. He's never going to be an offensive hub, but I question the narrative that he has to be. Not every NBA starter has to put up 20ppg for the team to succeed, does it?

We're set at the PG position pretty much, and could be set at C too, if we filled out the other 3 positions correctly. I'm not really too high on Vassell, definitely not sold on Keldon as a starter/PF, Primo's TBD. Not a lot else there, especially with White gone. Hence my argument - keep Poeltl while he's nice and cheap, and after you've plugged the other holes with talent, see where you're at. There's no hurry - and I laugh at all these "Jakob gonna request MAD MONEY next contract!!" takes - at all, we're tanking anyways.

Now, if you were to tell me we could sell high on Jakob to a contender for good assets, I'd be willing to listen, but I haven't heard a trade idea yet that really satisfies me. And since Jak, as you say, is nowhere near the top of the Spurs' problems - why fix something that ain't broken? He's good, it's not complicated.

[KobesAchilles]

There's a lot of oversimplification in your comments, and it's clearly lending to the confusion here.

First, you absolutely can have a "top guy" on a losing team, look no further than last years' Warriors (or was it the year before? I don't remember), when Curry was hard-carrying the team and didn't even make the POs. Direct counter to your argument, and it's happened many times before. Second, "top guy" is such a nebulous term... Same as "top players at a position". I'm assuming you mean DJ too - but does he really qualify as "top player" though? He's an AS and I'm very happy for him and his potential ofc, but right now, I'm taking CP3 every time if I want to make a playoff push. Morant too, and etcetera.

Just how far on the totem pole do you have to be before you're expected to carry a team? It's nebulous and arbitrary - and made worse by the fact that there's offensive and defensive minded players, both with their pros and cons. Draymond is the perfect example - absolutely not a floor raiser and pretty useless without someone being "the guy", BUT perfectly able to elevate that guy's and his own game in the right situation, and be a tremendously valuable piece to actual winning teams. Why can't Jakob be like that? Why can't the offensive production come primarily from the other 4 players on the team? There's not a single, be-all approach to teambuilding, either - and it's not even like Jakob is a Ben Simmons, 0 points case. He's gotten better on offense. He'll never be Ayton-level nor close (hence my previous point) but he's not a negative, quite the opposite. He makes the game easier for those around him... And, of course, if those around him aren't very good to begin with, it's not going to be a very good game.

I'll get to your other comment soon, gotta work now.

Good luck at work but I clearly said if you have TWO top guys at a position. DJ I would say is 5th or 6th. Somehow people have chucker Lillard and team killer Kyrie over him. Idk why.

Poeltl isn’t a top center and even if he were there is a big drop off from the top of centers to the 10th best center. Being the 10th best center doesn’t mean . Being the 10th best big man does. But if Poeltl is literally the 30th best player in the league then we shouldn’t have a losing record for any reason short of injury which we didn’t really have.

Draymond is a great example of an overrated player. He isn’t a top player at his position and that’s why when scurry was balling they were losing. He was playing with scrubs. Also Green can dribble the ball and create for others much better than Poeltl. He also plays with the 2 greatest shooters of all time and that offsets his offensive liability.

[BackHome]

I am not a Poodle fan but I give him credit he has been playing pretty good and he is definitely not my first or second concern regarding our rebuild. As some have said I am first looking at getting better talent at the SG, SF, and PF as I am not yet sold on any one being a legit starter going forward. Things can change but as I said if the best player is a SG when we use our first pick you take that player and iron out things latter.

Now I am not married to Poodle if the right trade comes along I would be all in but it has to be a good trade for us I am not giving him for crap. Also one thing I learned is that bigs take awhile to adapt to NBA which is why I would use one of our 3 picks and get Kessler as he is a Shot Blocking Rebounding Machine who has a little offense to his game. Let him learn from Poodle and if we can’t sign him or do end up trading him we have our center ready and waiting

[MannyIsGod]

Good luck at work but I clearly said if you have TWO top guys at a position. DJ I would say is 5th or 6th. Somehow people have chucker Lillard and team killer Kyrie over him. Idk why.

Poeltl isn’t a top center and even if he were there is a big drop off from the top of centers to the 10th best center. Being the 10th best center doesn’t mean . Being the 10th best big man does. But if Poeltl is literally the 30th best player in the league then we shouldn’t have a losing record for any reason short of injury which we didn’t really have.

Draymond is a great example of an overrated player. He isn’t a top player at his position and that’s why when scurry was balling they were losing. He was playing with scrubs. Also Green can dribble the ball and create for others much better than Poeltl. He also plays with the 2 greatest shooters of all time and that offsets his offensive liability.

But you're missing the point and still haven't answered the question, where are you going to get this alleged cheap upgrade? Have you not seen what paying more for a center gets you? Not very much unless you land Jokic or Embid. I'd Say a guy like Allen is a step up from Jakob, but that's a 20 million dollar a year player. And where are the Spurs going to find that player? Not in free agency and if they have to give up the trade prices that teams like Chicago and Memphis just paid then is that what you really want?

The Spurs should 100% be trying to draft a good big this next season, but they should not be trying to upgrade on Jakob this offseason.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/center/

Look at that list and no one on there is worth going after as an upgrade to Jakob except Ayton. And honestly, I don't want to be the team that gives Ayton the max because I'm not sold he's worth it.

I don't think Jakob is going to lead a team deep into the playoffs. But as I've said every time this topic is rehashed, there are a handful of centers who will, and none are attainable. We can't get Jokic, we can't get Embid, and we probably can't even get a guy like Karl Anthony Towns. On the other hand, we probably CAN get forwards or big guards who will move the needle more than a center will for the same price. THOSE positions should be the focus of improvement.

I'm OK with drafting a center with a very high pick and I'm OK with trading Jakob for assets knowing that we can get a cheap center to fill in (as a downgrade, but still serviceable, but paying big money on the free agent market or trade markets for a position that is ALWAYS getting overpaid is really dumb when we already have a good center on the roster.

[MannyIsGod]

The Carter/Vucevic trade is the perfect example of a trade the Spurs should in no one way think about doing and its almost the exact way you "upgrade" on Jakob. Would Chicago be any worse if they had Carter instead of Vucevic right now? I don't think so.

[Chinook]

Wow, according to that list, we made a bad trade seeing where Richardson and Langford rank. Celtics got a steal if that rating system has any real legitimacy. I really don't know how legit that list is with White being ranked higher than Jalen Brown, though.

The rating system doesn't have any legitimacy. It basically uses a bunch of random stats that are updated consistently and leaves out ones like RAPM that take time to come out for a reason. In premise, it's not that bad, because getting stats that all measure different things and incorporating them might give a more holistic view than using any of them by themselves. With more thought and tweaking, a viable system might come from it. But as I said before, advanced stats are opinions what data gets incorporated and in what proportion is a value judgement made by the creators. Not only does this ranking missing on stats like RAPM and basic on-off remove some prominent measuring factors, but by not weighing any of the stats, it claims the stats are all roughly equal. I don't think some like game score has any business rating the same as RAPTOR. I also don't think having both rate versions and ulative versions in the same ranking helps.

Ideally, you get 10 good stats that are adjusted for minutes/possessions/whatever and weigh them appropriately to get a number, and then separately, you get 10 more stats that are ulative and do the same thing. Then you report both numbers as different versions of the same ranking. Both stats can be useful, but they're from different contexts and shouldn't be mixed.

I'm not saying that to discredit any particular ranking. I'm just saying that Twitter lets people put out relatively thoughtless stats that can be confused for rigorous calculations. I've talked about it in the context of TPA before. I find them interesting, but I think they should be thought of more for fun/conversation than as something that should inform roster building.

[Seventyniner]

I'd much rather them use the median of the 10 different stats than the average.

[XDT76]

I'll never understand the "fake-building up X player just to on him" shtick this board is so fond of. You hit the nail on its head... The dude makes $9m/per. Excellent value and excellent production for said value. Would I judge him the same if he made Embiid levels of money? No... And he doesn't. He's a solid player, the anchor of the Spurs' defense, a top-2 player on the team, and far from the team's biggest problems.

I've repeatedly said I'd love to have Jakob come off the bench.... In place of an Ayton-level talented C. Do you get those in FA? Not in SanAn, at least. And those kinds of C's very consistently end up going #1 or at the most, #2 in a given draft (Ayton himself, KAT, Embiid, etc). So the argument becomes, would the Spurs be wise to sink up a lot of money on the C position, on luring a FA big man to replace Jakob, when he's perfectly capable of holding the fort for the time being? No.

If the Spurs don't want to tank for it, they'll have to make do with players like Jakob, who are good but far from flawless. "top this, top that" who the cares? The guy is better than this board thinks and that's the dough. I hope the Spurs can put a better team around him and Dejounte soon, so we can see what they're actually made of (funny that I never see "what has Dejounte won" kinda posts here... why would that be...?).

I really agree with the first sentence which happens to DW, KJ, DV and now seems to be happening to JP.

[MultiTroll]

ago and Memphis just paid then is that what you really want?

The Spurs should 100% be trying to draft a good big this next season,

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/center/

I don't think Jakob is going to lead a team deep into the playoffs. But as I've said every time this topic is rehashed, there are a handful of centers who will, and none are attainable. We can't get Jokic, we can't get Embid, and we probably can't even get a guy like Karl Anthony Towns. On the other hand, we probably CAN get forwards or big guards who will move the needle more than a center will for the same price. THOSE positions should be the focus of improvement.

I'm OK with drafting a center with a very high pick and I'm OK with trading Jakob for assets knowing that we can get a cheap center to fill in (as a downgrade, but still serviceable, but paying big money on the free agent market or trade markets for a position that is ALWAYS getting overpaid is really dumb when we already have a good center on the roster.

Manny is making sense.

And he can tell you what a RAPTOR but not a Toronto Raptor is.

I'm not a poodle hater either, however is his arc for salary / talent / age ever going to be better then the rest of this season and the next?

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The Carter/Vucevic trade is the perfect example of a trade the Spurs should in no one way think about doing and its almost the exact way you "upgrade" on Jakob. Would Chicago be any worse if they had Carter instead of Vucevic right now? I don't think so.

I like Poeltl a lot, but if you can upgrade, now is the time to do so.

I think the Spurs FO recognizes that, too, since they were attempting to work a deal at the deal to move him last week.