Reply With Quote
I just meant the photo itself.
You don't have to sell me on the idea that tons of people mistook Murray for a good defender. Dude got an All-Defense nod on the back of Green and Anderson in his second year.
You're jumping into a different conversation then. Why Murray/White didn't start was apparently the PTSD-inducing issue for KA.And I don't give a damn about starts between Murray and White. "Bu-bu-but Forbes earned his starting spot!"
I think they don't go together (or more importantly don't go with DeRozan, who's still definitely the best player of the trio), in large part because Murray has huge holes in his game that makes it hard for him to play with others. Duncan always could space the floor well enough to be a PF back then, and Splitter had PF mobility for the era. Murray's aversion to taking a role-player shot-selection and the fact that his defense was erratic more than good were legit issues that never got resolved in his favor.And if anyone has any "White & Murray don't go well together!!!!" talk, it is just sad. It is the carbon copy of people who knew better still excusing Pop benching Splitter his whole rookie year.
You don't have to sell me on Pop not playing White enough. I've wanted him to play since he was a rookie. He should be starting this year, even though there's a good chance he won't.Limiting White limited the team. Period. If a coach wants to lose, not playing your best players the most minutes is a good way to try.
Except that Murray wasn't the impact that you seem to believe he was. The Murray/White duo doesn't have nearly the argument if the Murray half of that duo isn't holding up its end. You trying to make it a Forbes/White thing is missing that Murray starting or even playing a lot with White wasn't a great solution. That's not because of White, who can play with pretty much anyone and who should get as many minutes as his body can handle. It's because Murray has downsides that make him not clearly better than Bryn was going into last season.there's nothing I've ignored.
Last edited by Chinook; 12-14-2020 at 09:35 AM.
I just meant the photo itself.
Where is the evidence that White and DJ don’t play well together? They’ve hardly played together at all other than the Bubble, which would suggest the opposite, or at least a neutral opinion.
The sink or swim method doesn't always work. More often than not you end up with Kevin Knox and Jarret Culver. Players whos confidence got shot because they were given more responsibilities than they are capable of.
It was something like Murray and White only played together for like one minute total until like 02/08/2020 against the Kings. I don't know about closing lineups and who was on the floor, but Murray and White weren't on the floor together for more than say the last defensive possession until then.
The mind sees what it wants to see
Also funny seeing anyone taking duncan2k5 (should be kawhi2k5) seriously. This dude doesn't even watch the Spurs outside of highlights, if even that. He's just parroting the same since Kawhi was traded because his vagina is still hurt.
There's more evidence that Forbes/White play well together than White/Murray. In reality, Murray as a starter has a decent data set of not playing well. I remember that the earliest returns from the Murray/White duo were actually really good. They ended up with a net rating of .7 in 240 minutes of action. That's not great, but it'd be eighth if compared to the most-used duos the Spurs had last year. To compare, Forbes/White was a horrible, horrible -8.3 last year. That was worse than any of the top-20 most-used duos SA ran with. But the year before, they were 4.3, which would've been the fifth-best duo last year.
So Bryn was a huge negative last year, and we should all be happy he's gone. But it's revisionist to believe that Bryn didn't work two years ago. He and White had an okay thing going, better than any duo Murray had last year. It's also pretty clear that there were other things wrong with the Spurs than just personnel last season. Pop had one of his worst coaching jobs, and while people harp on the rotations, there were other factors as well like scheme and motivating.
Chinook, I think a lot of us might be making slightly different points, but agreeing that white is good, Forbes is generally bad, and Murray is definitely overrated. Though I’m not high on Murray in his current role and salary, I still see him overall as a better player/less negative than Forbes.
I do think we agree that White is the best of the trio. I also don't think Forbes is necessarily better than Murray. I just think people took the wrong lessons from last season. Pop should've gone with what he knew worked and then worked in Walker as soon as Lonnie was ready to hit corner threes. Instead he froze out Walker, benched White and stuck with the awful Murray/Forbes duo. He almost seemed intimidated by Murray and started him out of fear. Because, like, Murray was never a good starter. There was no reason to look at his 2017-2018 performance and go, "Yeah, he should get his job back.". Then they gave DJM a ton of money, which meant they had to start him this season too. Then they refused to trade him enough to his value was supposedly decent.
I just have a feeling that Murray's going to hold the team back again and basically kill Walker's career, and the thing ST will take from it again is that the roster is horrible and that Murray and White are a good starting duo.
Stop spreading nonsense.
Murray finished seventh in total deflections during the season. Getting into passing lanes and disrupting the flow of his opponent’s offense is a specialty for the rising star. No player with at least 1500 minutes had more deflections per minute than Dejounte did. Similarly, Murray finished with 8.9 shot contests per 36 minutes, which was sixth amongst qualifying guards this year.
When matched up with top-tier compe ion, Murray elevates his play. Only Lu Dort of the OKC Thunder was more effective in defending James Harden this season. The following players combined to shoot (29.4%) when guarded by Murray during the season: Harden (3-18), Trae Young (8-18), Damian Lillard (3-7), Donovan Mitc (1-6), Lou Williams (1-6), Russell Westbrook (2-5), Bradley Beal (1-4) and Paul George (1-4). That’s a combined 20-68, for those who are counting.
https://airalamo.com/2020/09/08/djm-san-antonio-spurs-all-defensive-team/#:~:text=Despite%20the%20San%20Antonio%20Spurs,up% 20All%2DDefensive%20team%20votes.&text=That%20char isma%20and%20energy%20earned,for%20the%202019%2D20 %20season.
Interesting. So you prefer a White/Walker backcourt over White/Murray? If so, I prefer that too. Murray has plateaued and I agree they should have tried to trade him, especially because the league mostly likes him. Walker is at a tenuous point in his career where he needs a good environment to work through his issues and unlock his potential. Murray was given that opportunity and Walker hasn’t.
*Clears throat*
You don't have to sell me on the idea that tons of people (including airalamo.com) mistook Murray for a good defender. Dude got an All-Defense nod on the back of Green and Anderson his second year.
We all know White was the one who sonned Young last year.
I enjoyed the game against Harden as much as anyone else here.
The other ones form tremendously small sample sizes that aren't worth taking seriously. It's clearly a cherry-picked article. Show me a player who "gets up for good compe ion", and I'll show you one who usually underperforms. Case in point:
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/de..._FG_PCT&dir=-1
Those are defensive FG% percentage stats from last year. Murray is the third-worst rotation player (fourth if you think Keldon should count). I don't know what the regular FG% is supposed to mean, but if it means the league average from the spots at which the players shot, then it would bear out that opponents shot more than two percentage points better against Murray than they did against other players. It wasn't the worst of the team or anything, but it was worse than Bryn and Patty, for example.
I mean, I guess Murray might be contesting shots at a really high rate, but that hasn't been translating to a plus for the Spurs.
I think White/Walker should've been Pop's goal last season. I totally get thinking White/Forbes wasn't the answer. But I don't get why you draft a raw guy like Lonnie if developing him isn't one of your top plans. This year, I think it's still a good idea, but I'm way more willing to accept White/Johnson or White/Vassell. The Spurs have legit options for that second wing spot now. Even though I still think Lonnie's has the most potential on the team, they might have to consider moving on from him and letting their other wings get minutes before they all become bogged down.
Ask yourself who guards the best perimeter player on the other team before looking at the opponent FG%. There is a reason he cherry picked the best perimeter players. Bryn Forbes guarding Duncan Robinson is not the same as guarding the best iso scorer in the game.
1) You've gone from thinking those random stats were going to carry the day to burying your head when the full stats are shown.
2) If Murray is getting up to guard all those good offensive players you think he's checking, that should actually show well for him in the stats
3) There's zero-evidence that Murray usually checks the best offensive threat. DJM did a really good job on Bulter in the pre-season last year, and that was about it when it came to his defensive versatility. White guarded guys like Kawhi and Doncic.
If you don't think leading the league in deflections and top 10 in shot contest for his position is good defense then we should just agree to disagree.
Your search was what was wrong buddy
You put until December 31st 2020. That hasn't even happened yet!
four years into the murray experiment and i'm skeptical that the preseason game against OKC was an anomaly; i think we're going to get the same murray. white is clearly a much better fit for the team-the spurs are much better with him at PG. so, can murray fit at the 2 guard? defensively, perhaps but not so much on offense. murray is just to inconsistent a scorer at this time. on the other hand, i haven't been all too impressed with walker and he was awful on saturday. i hope that was just some rust but he just looked like a rookie all over again. in fact, if i hadn't known who the rookie was between walker and vassell, i would have thought walker. i was also disappointed in samanic but not sure that he had the same opportunity given considering when and where he was put in. i certainly hope to see more from him. at this point, the young guns that i have the greatest confidence in are white, vassell and johnson.
Agreed. Have the same thoughts
This raises an important point about the challenges the front office faces. They did very well for years staying the course with the big three, obviously, but I don’t know if they have any track record in having to adapt to sudden changes (like Funghi and his Uncle sabotaging the team) to how to prioritize their young talent. They seem disinclined to move on from players and rather let their contract play out. But if they do that with Murray, it could easily screw up the whole rebuild.
I’m digressing further now, but the first preseason game was, yes, only one game. But if they were trying to continue the Bubble Magic, as they purport, it is very odd that they wouldn’t try that right away. Perhaps pop interprets the success of the Bubble differently. Perhaps he only sees it as an at ude, and not a focus or philosophy in rotations. Obviously, not having White or Keldon is a monkey wrench. But if they can’t commit to it early, then I really don’t see it happening this year. Maybe pop did, but the veterans just basically don’t give a .
I hope I don't have to root for White on a different team in a few years, but it wouldn't surprise me.
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/cl...12%2F31%2F2019Your search was what was wrong buddy
You put until December 31st 2020. That hasn't even happened yet!
There same thing White finishes games. Your'e getting exposed man, just watch games. You won't know who closes games by looking at box scores.
White was born to be a Spur. From personality, unselfish play, and character, this guy bleeds silver and black. He ain't going anywhere.
Did you say this is the last five minutes of the fourth quarter? If so, I can't help by notice that Murray's and White's times don't add up to five minutes, meaning they could (and did) still not play together until February.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
