Spurs To Retire Avery Johnson's Number 6

[sandman]

So basically, the Spurs equipment manager (who at the time would have been Commando) got a call from Manu saying he wanted to be number six, so he got out a number six and sewed it on a jersey. That's how it works.

Well, clearly I was mistaken. I was living out of state when Manu came to the team, so I did not see the press conference, but I had the understanding that the a #6 jersey was presented to him, along with comments regarding the history of who wore the jersey. Did that public interaction not take place?

[picnroll]

Would Avery fit well in today's Spurs?

Depends on whose perspective. Orlando fans, with Duncan on their team, would say yes

[sandman]

Would Avery fit well in today's Spurs?

Only if by "fit well" you mean "fighting Jacque Vaughn for PT"

[SRJ]

I set the standard with the Lakers and Celtics.

Then you are operating on two different standards - All of the retired Lakers jersey's represent HOF players. Seven of Boston's 19 retired jerseys do not represent HOF players.

[timvp]

Well, clearly I was mistaken. I was living out of state when Manu came to the team, so I did not see the press conference, but I had the understanding that the a #6 jersey was presented to him, along with comments regarding the history of who wore the jersey. Did that public interaction not take place?

It did but it wasn't the drama that Spurs Nation makes it out to be. The Spurs didn't go looking to disrespect AJ but were thwarted when Big Bad Don Harris came to AJ's rescue like the current SpursTalk fairy tale would tell you.

The Spurs also one time gave #13 to some scrub training camp invite a few years ago before realizing it was retired. The Spurs mispelled Ginobili's last name on his jersey during media day of his rookie season, but we don't hear about that. The Spurs mispelled Udrih's last name when they presented him with his jersey but he was still able to become a lockdown defender. There are no secret messages to all these events. The jersey selection process is a lot less dramatic than some in here seem to believe.

[picnroll]

So basically, the Spurs equipment manager (who at the time would have been Commando) got a call from Manu saying he wanted to be number six, so he got out a number six and sewed it on a jersey. That's how it works.

Yeah I distinctly remember that at the press conference. I distinctly remember Pop mumbling "Oh , look at this, AJ's number. What the am I going to do now. Maybe nobody will notice and we can switch it later. Oh , did I just mention AJ' sname in the mike. Harris. Hey Don can you help me out here. "

[timvp]

Yeah I distinctly remember that at the press conference. I distinctly remember Pop mumbling "Oh , look at this, AJ's number. What the am I going to do now. Maybe nobody will notice and we can switch it later. Oh , did I just mention AJ' sname in the mike. Harris. Hey Don can you help me out here. "

Ok.

[SequSpur]

I don't get what you guys think the process is of deciding which numbers players get. Do you guys think there is a big roundtable discussion of all the Spurs players, management and ownership that discusses the pros and cons of giving out certain numbers to certain players?

The reality is the Spurs give new players a to-do list. On that to-do list is a section where the player is to contact the Spurs' equipment manager and let the equipment manager know what number they want to be. That's it. There's no congressional summit. There's no democratic vote involved.

So basically, the Spurs equipment manager (who at the time would have been Commando) got a call from Manu saying he wanted to be number six, so he got out a number six and sewed it on a jersey. That's how it works.

I declare Bull on this take.

They fricking knew damn well what they were doing. You're in the minority in supporting this event and you're pissed. You have over 100 responses in this topic alone pleading your case and it's still not working.

Avery is not worthy of a jersey retirement, sorry to let you down timvp.

But hey, he is getting it anyway..... not all front spots go to handicapped people you know... there is some discretion.

[smeagol]

Only if by "fit well" you mean "fighting Jacque Vaughn for PT"

I meant "fit well" in a classy organization . . .

[sandman]

Then you are operating on two different standards - All of the retired Lakers jersey's represent HOF players. Seven of Boston's 19 retired jerseys do not represent HOF players.

I have never argued that every retired jersey required an HoF qualifier.

The point was that 100% of Laker retired numbers belong to HoFers.

68% of Celtic retired numbers belong to HoFers. The remainder:

DJ: 5-time All Star and 8-time All-D First or Second Team (2 les)

JoJo White: All-Rookie Team, All-NBA Second Team twice, 7 time All Star, NBA Finals MVP (2 les)

Sanders: 13 years w/ Celtics, All-D Second Team, Top 10 All Time Celtic in Games, Rebounds and Minutes (8 les)

Nellie: One of the NBA orginal 6th man, Top 10 All Time Celtic in Games and Rebounds (5 les)

Maxwell: Twice led league in FG%, NBA Finals MVP, All Time Celtic leader in FG% (2 les)

That is not exactly a list to be embarrased about.

After December, the Spurs will stand at 33%.

After the current group of players retire? Only Timmy is a mortal lock; TP needs several more years at current level; Manu gets in for his international play as much if not more than his play with the Spurs; Bruce would be a serious longshot.

So it's not a problem for you that only 4 out of 10 numbers are HoFers?

[timvp]

I declare Bull on this take.

They fricking knew damn well what they were doing.

So you are in the "Big Bad Don Harris thwarted Pop's masterplan" camp? Makes sense.

You're in the minority in supporting this event and you're pissed.

P1ssed? I'm the happiest person in this thread. AJ got the recognition he deserved. What more could I want?

And timvp is oftentimes in the minority but is oftentimes right. You do the math.

[sandman]

And timvp is oftentimes in the minority but is oftentimes right. You do the math.

I'm getting the impression that this is really the issue at hand, not the validity of AJ's number being retired.

Not everything comes down to declaring oneself the winner. On an internet message board.

[timvp]

I'm getting the impression that this is really the issue at hand, not the validity of AJ's number being retired.

Not everything comes down to declaring oneself the winner. On an internet message board.

Where did I declare myself the winner? And about what?

That was in response to those trying to say I'm wrong just because I'm in the minority. I was pointing out that being in the minority on an issue != wrong.

[SRJ]

So it's not a problem for you that only 4 out of 10 numbers are HoFers?

No, because there is a precedent around the league in favor of honoring players other than HOFers. Additionally, I like the idea of players who meet other types of standards.

I'm not going to rehash my entire case for Avery Johnson - I've done that at least three times on this thread alone - but I believe in honoring players who exhibit character, hard work, reliability, and persistence. In a word, I place a lot of value on professionalism. Great talents like David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, and Tony Parker have it - but so do lesser talents like Avery Johnson. And many great talents (Isaiah Rider, Rod Strickland, Allen Iverson, Richard Dumas to name a few) do not.

[sandman]

Where did I declare myself the winner? And about what?

That was in response to those trying to say I'm wrong just because I'm in the minority. I was pointing out that being in the minority on an issue != wrong.

I infered that because you are "often in the minority" and "often right when you are in the minority", that therefore you are right on this subject. I infered this from a few other posts in this thread as well, but your choice of words in this particular post appeared more obvious.

If that is not what you implied, then you have my apologies.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

timvp, you are backed into a bandwagon fallacy and whining about Don Harris now its cute.

You admit that Johnson was bottom tier in talent as a point guard and Johnsons leadership was suspect.

I remember choking to the Rockets and Jazz in the playoffs year after year with Johnson as our leader and i remember all the infighting in the locker room that revolved around the little napolean in his last two years.

so you can sit there and be smug because Pop and DRob likes him but Im not just going to disregard his antics those last two years and his abject failures in his first 6 years.

DRob and Duncan got us that championship in 99. Not Johnson. And even if he had i think honoring someone like that should be because of consistent excellence and Johnson was never consistently excellent.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Where did I declare myself the winner? And about what?

That was in response to those trying to say I'm wrong just because I'm in the minority. I was pointing out that being in the minority on an issue != wrong.

its called a bandwagon logical fallacy. it also works both ways.

[sandman]

No, because there is a precedent around the league in favor of honoring players other than HOFers. Additionally, I like the idea of players who meet other types of standards.

I'm not going to rehash my entire case for Avery Johnson - I've done that at least three times on this thread alone - but I believe in honoring players who exhibit character, hard work, reliability, and persistence. In a word, I place a lot of value on professionalism. Great talents like David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, and Tony Parker have it - but so do lesser talents like Avery Johnson. And many great talents (Isaiah Rider, Rod Strickland, Allen Iverson, Richard Dumas to name a few) do not.

Not a precedent among teams with Championships. Heck, even the Bulls who won all their championships in an 8-year span only have 4 retired numbers. MJ, Scottie, Love and Jerry Krause.

Quit comparing the Spurs to the mediocrity of the Suns and Blazers.

[timvp]

timvp, you are backed into a bandwagon fallacy

Bandwagon fallacy? In case you didn't notice, the bandwagon take right now is going against AJ. Not sure what you are talking about.

and whining about Don Harris

Again, you are confusing the sides of this argument. Your side of the argument is the one whining about Don Harris. Remember, you guys are saying it's Don Harris' fault that AJ is getting his jersey retired.

You admit that Johnson was bottom tier in talent as a point guard and Johnsons leadership was suspect.

Link?

I remember choking to the Rockets and Jazz in the playoffs year after year with Johnson as our leader and i remember all the infighting in the locker room that revolved around the little napolean in his last two years.

Did you also remember the championship?

so you can sit there and be smug because Pop and DRob likes him but Im not just going to disregard his antics those last two years and his abject failures in his first 6 years.

I have Pop and Robinson on my side. You have SequSpur. I'm pretty happy with how it stands.

DRob and Duncan got us that championship in 99. Not Johnson. And even if he had i think honoring someone like that should be because of consistent excellence and Johnson was never consistently excellent.

Would you rather have consistent excellence out of a player or a championship?

[SRJ]

I remember choking to the Rockets and Jazz in the playoffs year after year with Johnson as our leader

See, I think this sentiment here is typical of the anti-AJ crowd. "When we lost a playoff series, it was because of AJ, but he had nothing to do with the wins."

In 1993, then from 1995-1998 (with Avery as a starter, before the first championship), the Spurs won five playoff series. In all of Spurs history before that, the club had won four: 1979 (with James Silas at PG), 1982 and 1983 (with Johnny Moore at PG), and 1990 (with Rod Strickland at PG). The great Strickland wasn't good enough to prevent a choke against Golden State, a much worse choke than against the Rockets or Jazz.

If Avery Johnson was such a drag on the ticket, the Spurs could not possibly have won so many games during that time. They couldn't have won more playoff series in five seasons then they had in all of the other sixteen. Even if you discount 1998 because of the addition of Duncan, that comes out to four series wins in four seasons against four series wins in fifteen years.

[sandman]

Is this a fairly accurate list of the point guards that came through SA during AJ's tenure?

2000: Chris Carrawell
1999: Terry Porter
1998: Antonio Daniels
1996: Vernon Maxwell
1995: Corey Alexander
1994: Doc Rivers
1993: Chris Whitney

Not a stellar list, but the Spurs were actively trying to get point guards on the roster

[SRJ]

Is this a fairly accurate list of the point guards that came through SA during AJ's tenure?

2000: Chris Carrawell
1999: Terry Porter
1998: Antonio Daniels
1996: Vernon Maxwell
1995: Corey Alexander
1994: Doc Rivers
1993: Chris Whitney

Not a stellar list, but the Spurs were actively trying to get point guards on the roster

I would take Doc Rivers and Vernon Maxwell off the list. Doc was brought in to bolster the bench IIRC, and Maxwell was never a point. I would also add Negele Knight to the list, who played in the 1993-94 season. (I know Avery was gone that year, but had he worked out Avery wouldn't have come back the next year)

[sandman]

If Avery Johnson was such a drag on the ticket, the Spurs could not possibly have won so many games during that time. They couldn't have won more playoff series in five seasons then they had in all of the other sixteen. Even if you discount 1998 because of the addition of Duncan, that comes out to four series wins in four seasons against four series wins in fifteen years.

Yet the Spurs have won their last two championships with marginal talent at the center position. Weak argument that cannot be supported with data.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Is this a fairly accurate list of the point guards that came through SA during AJ's tenure?

2000: Chris Carrawell
1999: Terry Porter
1998: Antonio Daniels
1996: Vernon Maxwell
1995: Corey Alexander
1994: Doc Rivers
1993: Chris Whitney

Not a stellar list, but the Spurs were actively trying to get point guards on the roster

You let out Steve Kerr.

[timvp]

Is this a fairly accurate list of the point guards that came through SA during AJ's tenure?

2000: Chris Carrawell
1999: Terry Porter
1998: Antonio Daniels
1996: Vernon Maxwell
1995: Corey Alexander
1994: Doc Rivers
1993: Chris Whitney

Not a stellar list, but the Spurs were actively trying to get point guards on the roster

Don't forget Steve Kerr.

Kerr was AJ's backup in the 1999 playoffs. People complain about AJ's shooting, yet Kerr shot like 10% and Kerr is one of the best shooters of all-time. Perhaps the offense wasn't geared for great stats from the point guard position.

Nah, that couldn't be it. I don't want to disrupt the Anti-AJ faction. Carry on . . .