Spurs To Retire Avery Johnson's Number 6

[timvp]

Oh and Chris Carrawell was a small forward. Vernon Maxwell was a shooting guard. And there were a lot more point guards than that.

[sandman]

I would take Doc Rivers and Vernon Maxwell off the list. Doc was brought in to bolster the bench IIRC, and Maxwell was never a point. I would also add Negele Knight to the list, who played in the 1993-94 season. (I know Avery was gone that year, but had he worked out Avery wouldn't have come back the next year)

Ah, forgot about Knight. It says something to a PG when your team continues to spend draft picks on more PG's. But according to some, AJ was absolutely indespensable to the team.

[sandman]

Oh and Chris Carrawell was a small forward. Vernon Maxwell was a shooting guard. And there were a lot more point guards than that.

I think I mixed him up with Duhon, who was later. My bad on not keeping my Dukies straight.

[SRJ]

Yet the Spurs have won their last two championships with marginal talent at the center position. Weak argument that cannot be supported with data.

Well, many teams have won championships with marginal talent at center. Most championship teams have at least a competent PG playing the position - those champions that do not are teams like the Bulls, who got their assists from Jordan and Pippen.

[sandman]

Nah, that couldn't be it. I don't want to disrupt the Anti-AJ faction. Carry on . . .

There is a difference between being Anti-AJ and not wanting to ride his jock. But for the sake of supporting your opinion, I understand that you have to classify everyone who disagrees with you in the far extreme.

[timvp]

Ah, forgot about Knight. It says something to a PG when your team continues to spend draft picks on more PG's. But according to some, AJ was absolutely indespensable to the team.

The Spurs couldn't get a halfway decent backup point guard while AJ was here. Much less a point guard that could have challenged for a starting spot.

Again, you can blame AJ or you can be thankful that the Spurs at least had a starting quality option. Without AJ, the Spurs probably would have been starting Sleepy Floyd or someone of that ilk.

[SRJ]

It says something to a PG when your team continues to spend draft picks on more PG's.

Knight wasn't a draft pick - he had played at Phoenix before.

Of course, it also says something that none of those guys could beat the terrible Avery Johnson in training camp.

[sandman]

Well, many teams have won championships with marginal talent at center. Most championship teams have at least a competent PG playing the position - those champions that do not are teams like the Bulls, who got their assists from Jordan and Pippen.

So if the Bulls could do it, why do you emphatically state that the Spurs could not have won all those playoff series without AJ?

[sandman]

Knight wasn't a draft pick - he had played at Phoenix before.

Of course, it also says something that none of those guys could beat the terrible Avery Johnson in training camp.

It says that we went many years before having a starting PG that could have started on more than just a few scrub teams in the league...

[SRJ]

So if the Bulls could do it, why do you emphatically state that the Spurs could not have won all those playoff series without AJ?

First of all, I didn't say that they couldn't have won without AJ, let alone emphatically. What I was trying to say is that if AJ was that deficient, their success (such as it was) could not have been so extensive.

But second of all, we had to do it with a PG because we didn't have Michael Jordan or Scottie Pippen playing the 2/3. In 1993, we had Dale Ellis (a shooter only) playing the two and Sean Elliott (a good player, not Scottie Pippen good) playing the three. In 1995, it was Vinny Del Negro (a shooter only) and Elliott. In 1996, ditto. In 1997, Robinson and Elliott missed 119 out of a possible 164 games, thus screwing our season (although blessing our future). In 1998, our 2/3 combo was Jaren Jackson (defensive specialist) and a Sean Elliott/Chuck Person tag team. (Elliott missed 46 games that season).

So to run it like the Bulls, we would have needed a serious talent upgrade at one position (SG) and a serious run of good health (and frankly, some better play) from another (SF). We would also have needed to employ the Triangle offense, which de-emphasizes the traditional PG role.

[dimsah]

What a ridiculous argument. There has not been one good point as to why AJ should have his jersey retired other than he wanted to win a championship really really really really really really bad and he worked hard to get it. Arguments have been about some legend of AJ's behind the scenes locker room leadership.


Regardless of how that sounds I'm not an AJ hater.
I liked Avery the player because he played hard and helped win the first ring, but that doesn't mean his jersey should be hanging next to 50 or 21 when it goes up.



Just because 00 got in doesn't mean that kind of has to continue.

Have some pride and reserve those numbers for the franchise changers.

[timvp]

There has not been one good point as to why AJ should have his jersey retired

Because Gregg Popovich, Peter Holt, David Robinson and Sean Elliott all agree that Avery Johnson was a huge part of their championship success. There can't be a better point than that.

Should I side with a fan base that shows their appreciation for what the Spurs have accomplished by not selling out a Western Conference Finals playoff game ... or Pop, Holt, Robinson and Elliott?

You decide.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Bandwagon fallacy? In case you didn't notice, the bandwagon take right now is going against AJ. Not sure what you are talking about.

Again, you are confusing the sides of this argument. Your side of the argument is the one whining about Don Harris. Remember, you guys are saying it's Don Harris' fault that AJ is getting his jersey retired.

Link?

Did you also remember the championship?

I have Pop and Robinson on my side. You have SequSpur. I'm pretty happy with how it stands.

Would you rather have consistent excellence out of a player or a championship?

I have never said anything one way or the other regarding Harris. I know very well that Pop has the local media by the balls. Personally I think its just a stupid PR stunt. The Spurs PR machine isnt exactly stellar.

On one side you say that youre the minority and claim that doesnt make you worng but then you turn around and use the same reasoning when you say that DRob and Elliot agree wit you so therefore that makes you right.

I remember the championship and i remember very well being impressed with Johnson's ability to hit that 15 footer but i remember much more vividly the entreity of his career here.

He was awful from 94-98 and he was a complete assclown from 00-02. He was able to hit that jumpre for one season and Im sorry to me that doesnt make all those years of play okay.

Thye are going to do it and im just going to think that its a complete joke. You look at the numbers the lakers ahve retired and yous ee names like Goodrich, Jabbar and Chamberlain.

We get Johnny Moore and Avery ing Johnson.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Because Gregg Popovich, Peter Holt, David Robinson and Sean Elliott all agree that Avery Johnson was a huge part of their championship success. There can't be a better point than that.

Should I side with a fan base that shows their appreciation for what the Spurs have accomplished by not selling out a Western Conference Finals playoff game ... or Pop, Holt, Robinson and Elliott?

You decide.

So you let other do your thinking for you? Thats nice.

Of course they are going to say that. They arent going to stab their friend in the back.

[timvp]

I have never said anything one way or the other regarding Harris. I know very well that Pop has the local media by the balls. Personally I think its just a stupid PR stunt. The Spurs PR machine isnt exactly stellar.

What exactly was a PR stunt? Giving Manu #6 was just a PR stunt to get the Spurs in the news?

On one side you say that youre the minority and claim that doesnt make you worng but then you turn around and use the same reasoning when you say that DRob and Elliot agree wit you so therefore that makes you right.

That's the same side. It's just that the minority in this matter has more qualified people in it.

He was awful from 94-98

Yeah, Avery Johnson was awful. Good, logical take there.

You look at the numbers the lakers ahve retired and yous ee names like Goodrich, Jabbar and Chamberlain.

How is it the Spurs' fault that they haven't needed an overflowing of Hall of Fame players to win championships? If Goodrich, Kareem or Wilt played for the Spurs, they'd have their jerseys retired, too.

The Spurs' on court and off court emotional leader happened to be a journeyman point guard with little natural basketball talent. However, he played a big role in the first championship and the seasons leading up to the championship, so he's earned the respect of those who matter.

[timvp]

So you let other do your thinking for you? Thats nice.

If I let others do my thinking, I'd be with the 70% of fans who don't want AJ's number retired.

[dimsah]

Because Gregg Popovich, Peter Holt, David Robinson and Sean Elliott all agree that Avery Johnson was a huge part of their championship success. There can't be a better point than that.

Should I side with a fan base that shows their appreciation for what the Spurs have accomplished by not selling out a Western Conference Finals playoff game ... or Pop, Holt, Robinson and Elliott?

You decide.

Why do I have to decide between Pop, Robinson or the fans?
If my opinion falls in to one of the categories, then so be it.
I would like the standard to go up.

, I was on the fence about Elliott, and his accomplishments exceed AJs. That doesn't mean I don't think they were integral parts of a championship team.

[Holt's Cat]

First off, this isn't the Naismith Hall of Fame. It's a team honoring the players who were important to their history. I'm sure there aren't many here who would have a problem with Bowen honored in similiar fashion. If you were a Spurs fan before their first championship you know what AJ meant to this team. If you weren't, you just focus on the fact that he's the Mavs' head coach (though it seems odd that such an inferior basketball mind was able to dispatch a Pop coached Spurs team with TD on it).

Then there's whottt, the biggest moron of all on the internets. If you find yourself in agreement with him, seek professional help immediately.

[Holt's Cat]

Anyways, to sum up this thread: if AJ was HC of the Hawks nobody would think twice about AJ's # being retired.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What exactly was a PR stunt? Giving Manu #6 was just a PR stunt to get the Spurs in the news?

That's the same side. It's just that the minority in this matter has more qualified people in it.



Yeah, Avery Johnson was awful. Good, logical take there.

How is it the Spurs' fault that they haven't needed an overflowing of Hall of Fame players to win championships? If Goodrich, Kareem or Wilt played for the Spurs, they'd have their jerseys retired, too.

The Spurs' on court and off court emotional leader happened to be a journeyman point guard with little natural basketball talent. However, he played a big role in the first championship and the seasons leading up to the championship, so he's earned the respect of those who matter.

Silas, Gervin and Robinson all say o. Johnson cant even hold those guys jock.

He averaged 8 points and 5 assists for his career and statistcally he was comparable to:

1991-92. Wes Matthews, 1984-85
1992-93. John Bagley, 1984-85
1993-94. Travis Best, 1996-97
1994-95. Michael Adams, 1992-93
1995-96. Michael Adams, 1992-93
1996-97. Rickey Green, 1984-85
1997-98. Geoff Huston, 1981-82
1998-99. Sherman Douglas, 1993-94
1999-00. Damon Stoudamire, 1998-99
2000-01. Damon Stoudamire, 2006-07

Like I said he was awful.

its also convenint how you tout that Pop is not above reproach when you criticise like oyu were crowing about with the Scola trade and other moves but now its all you got and your clining to it desperately.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

First off, this isn't the Naismith Hall of Fame. It's a team honoring the players who were important to their history. I'm sure there aren't many here who would have a problem with Bowen honored in similiar fashion. If you were a Spurs fan before their first championship you know what AJ meant to this team. If you weren't, you just focus on the fact that he's the Mavs' head coach (though it seems odd that such an inferior basketball mind was able to dispatch a Pop coached Spurs team with TD on it).

Then there's whottt, the biggest moron of all on the internets. If you find yourself in agreement with him, seek professional help immediately.

Spare me. i remeber a team taht would consistently lose to Houston and Utah for years. Avery Johnson = second round playoff exit.

I also remember the Spurs trying to feed us all that little general crap. My Johnson derision started in 94.

[MrChug]

IMO if this is true, then it would be an injustice for Bruce Bowen to not get his number retired as well.

I agree...along with Manu and Tony (if they retired 2 championships ago).

[picnroll]

Because Gregg Popovich, Peter Holt, David Robinson and Sean Elliott all agree that Avery Johnson was a huge part of their championship success. There can't be a better point than that.

Avery contributed to a championship just like Jaren Jackson did and Steve Kerr and Stephen Jackson and Speedy Claxton and Malik Rose and Robert Horry and Nazr Mohammed and .... Show me the link to where Popovich, Holt, Robinson and Elliott said Avery was the foundation to the Spurs' championships as you've claimed.

[SRJ]

Thye are going to do it and im just going to think that its a complete joke. You look at the numbers the lakers ahve retired and yous ee names like Goodrich, Jabbar and Chamberlain.

We're not the Lakers.

We spend money smartly, we develop our superstars (not buy them from Milwaukee, Orlando, Philadelphia), and we honor the players that represented the franchise the best way possible.

In LA, they don't even honor their franchise history. Did you see the retired Lakers list? No Mikan, no Pollard, no Mikkelsen, no Slater Martin. It's as though the five championships that they have the gall to count as their own don't exist when it comes to honoring those who put those first five flags up there.

Either claim nine championships or honor those who gave you the first five. That's how it should go, but in LA they want it both ways.

I'm glad we're not doing things the way they do. Silas and Gervin would be footnotes in our history if we did.

[Holt's Cat]

Spare me. i remeber a team taht would consistently lose to Houston and Utah for years. Avery Johnson = second round playoff exit.

I also remember the Spurs trying to feed us all that little general crap. My Johnson derision started in 94.

So David Robinson shouldn't have been so recognized too? Thanks.