God did not create the universe, says Hawking

[JoeChalupa]

Do you believe in Zeus?

No, but it makes for a great story.
Yeah, yeah....the Bible makes for a great story....the greatest story ever told some might say. I watched that new movie about Zeus with Liam Neeson in it and it was entertaining but it didn't make me believe in Zeus although I did enjoy mythology class in school.

[Phenomanul]

If I've stated it on numerous occasions then you should have no problems finding those occasions. I don't think you're intellectually inferior and have never said as much. I believe you suffer from the same condition every human before you has suffered from: wanting to know how everything was created or came into being.

You sit here and try to blow holes in every scientific theory saying that it can't explain the beginning as if your theory could. You fail to acknowledge that Christianity is much more logically viewed as a system of control than an actual workable theory. You fail to account for the very real anthropological reasoning for most of the bible stories and act as if they're the actual word of God.

I've never said you were dumb. I just maintain you delude yourself and for some reason act as though you have all the answers and that you can actually logically explain your belief structure.

Believe what you want but don't act as though there is any logic behind it. Thats just bull .

Oh and LOL at you and your continuous claim of persecution. No one is going to come along and crucify you no matter how much you keep trying to make it so.

Come on Manny, really? While I'll admit that this is a much clearer stance... you've never stated this much. Ever.

It's a no win scenario for me... If I don't have knowledge-base to understand the topics at hand I get 'crucified'... and if I do, I get tauted as some arrogant, smug, know-it-all, and get 'crucified' for that as well...

I speak from my own perspective... that this offends people is NOT my problem...

BTW the persecution has always been verbal... that you don't at least acknowledge that this is the case (since you partake of it) is a rather convenient position to take.

[Phenomanul]

God created Satan.

Ok, now we are a step closer.

Yes or no:

Could God, being all-powerful and all wise, have reasonably foreseen that Satan, would use his free will to do evil?

Yes... but how does this diminish GOD in any way form or fashion? If He wanted to exist in a 'world' with other sentient en ies and share His power wasn't that up to Him?

Perhaps there was no permutation that allowed for the Creation of a Universe in which sentient beings could avoid evil forever. Perhaps evil arose in every single permutation. Someone donned with Free Will inevitably introduces evil into the picture... though as we've already established Free Will doesn't always lead to evil. Maybe this was the one Universe where evil presented itself only after billions and billions of beings had already been created.

But the problem isn't GOD or His power. It's the fact that other sentient beings aren't as Holy or as Perfect as GOD Himself. If we were as holy and as perfect, we would be like gods ourselves... Isn't that the lie that satan ultimately deceived Eve with?

That's why Blake believes that no one will have Free Will in Heaven... (even though he really doesn't believe in Heaven to begin with). He believes it has to be stripped away for evil to disappear altogether. But apparently he's diminished the power of the blood of He who has/will vanquish evil forever.

Either way... you're still no closer to proving that GOD created evil. Your "by proxy" correlation doesn't really cut it.

[clambake]

the god that created god created evil. right?

[Satan]

Nothing makes me hotter than rude awakenings!!

[LnGrrrR]

You’re still not getting it... that outcome is useless no matter how improbable. You want me to forcibly accept that the chance formation of code sequences 200+ or 1000s of base-pairs in length “just happened” and then to boot you want me to disregard the mathematical odds that your proposed processes would have to overcome in order to arrive at said sequence(s)? Uh yeah... ok? Those sequences are not only improbable but purposeful. Why is that important? Because you can’t gain purpose from random chance, especially not of the magnitude contained within genes.

What are the odds that I woke up this morning at exactly 6:17 AM, got out of bed, made the exact same sequence of steps to get ready for work, drove to work at exactly the time I did, etc etc? If you add up all those possibilities, to arrive at that exact conclusion again is probably one in billions. And yet, I managed that today, somehow.

Wherever genetic information came from originally... be it by a believer’s postulate that “GOD did it”, or because an ancient race of aliens created it, or whatever else anyone may wish to postulate... it reeks of design.

If the genome is so complex that it must have been designed, how was God able to just "poof" himself into being?

These scientists wouldn’t be trying to tip the odds in their favor (games of chance) if they didn’t acknowledge that the odds they were trying to overcome were mind-blowingly staggering, and legitimate...

Are you familiar with the "Many-World" interpretation of Quantum Mechanics?

You very well know, no answer I give you here will suffice your personal I can’t give you what you’re looking for, because nothing will ever satisfy your unbelief.

Well, God popping down to the planet and having some tea time with a few people in Times Square would help.

If ever the FSM proclaimed to have Created everything… But unfortunately for you we know the origin of the FSM and how it was conceived in parody. We also know that no one knew of FSM’s ‘existence’ til a couple of years ago… so if it was only recently conceived (and do ented), we ABSOLUTELY know with full CERTAINTY that it hasn’t done anything, or that it isn’t capable of anything other than to fancy the mocking nature of those in your camp and those that created it...

How do you know the FSM hasn't existed all this time, and just recently decided to reveal his works? Prove that he hasn't existed throughout all known history.

Only in a very limited sense... We won’t ever see the singularity that created it all... As I stated earlier, the three immutable elements of the scientific method cannot be employed on matters concerning origins (neither repeatability, nor observation, nor measurement). You employ faith because your premise that GOD doesn’t exist is partially based on the assumption that the naturalistic processes that give rise to life (without the aid of a Creator) will one day be discovered. WE HAVE YET TO FIND those processes and yet you openly believe that they occurred.

But the possibility to find life, or create life, or see abiogenesis, still theoretically exists.

I’ve never denied that my belief in GOD is based on Faith… or that my belief structure was based on the Special Revelation of the Scriptures… and only loosely on the General Revelation manifest in nature.

So your belief in God is not based on scientific reasoning. That's fair enough.

The point is getting you to understand that your belief system (on matters of origins - not the applied sciences) is based on faith as well. That’s why your quest for proof surrounding the GOD-question is pointless, especially when issued as taunts as you’ve done repeatedly in this thread. Even your fellow agnostics can tell you your request is foolhardy... So no, the difference between you and me is simple: I’m not in denial about my faith, and you most definitely are. I mean, you can’t even come to terms with that realization.

Do you think that NOT believing in something is a form of faith as well? For instance, do you have FAITH that the FSM doesn't exist?

After all, why is it that so many people are offended by the theory of Evolution to the point of fiercely opposing it??? Why is it that emotions run so high and intellectual battles persist? Because of ignorance? Hardly!

More due to genetic superiority. Why is it ok to eat pigs and not cats in America?

The fact of the matter is that ID is as robust a theory as one should reasonably expect, having all of the components—foundation, logical/mathematical formulation, explanatory/predictive power, etc... that other widely accepted theories have... In short, it questions how the order and complexity that we see in nature could arise out of entirely natural processes... but ventures further to suggest that design is clearly present. That's the step naturalists loath...

Except no one can seemingly give an example of an irreducible item. Those proposed have been able, afaik, to be reduced.

[LnGrrrR]

That makes us even then I guess although I have no idea how the flying spaghetti monster came into this.

If you can not disprove the FSM, but still do not believe his Noodly teachings, you will see why some of us do not follow God.

[Blake]

No, but it makes for a great story.

Why do you believe that Zeus does not exist?

Not because of any claim you did or didn't make, but as an exercise, prove that Zeus does not exist.

[clambake]

satan deceived eve. thats one of my favorites.

[NASpurs]

Why do you believe that Zeus does not exist?

Not because of any claim you did or didn't make, but as an exercise, prove that Zeus does not exist.

To millions of Greeks, he did exist. Now he doesn't.

[LnGrrrR]

Perhaps there was no permutation that allowed for the Creation of a Universe in which sentient beings could avoid evil forever. Perhaps evil arose in every single permutation.

Isn't it a logical impossibility for an omnipotent creator to not be able to create a world without evil?

But the problem isn't GOD or His power. It's the fact that other sentient beings aren't as Holy or as Perfect as GOD Himself. If we were as holy and as perfect, we would be like gods ourselves... Isn't that the lie that satan ultimately deceived Eve with?

Not really. He just said that we would know the difference between good and evil, which was the truth.

That's why Blake believes that no one will have Free Will in Heaven... (even though he really doesn't believe in Heaven to begin with). He believes it has to be stripped away for evil to disappear altogether. But apparently he's diminished the power of the blood of He who has/will vanquish evil forever.

Didn't you just state above that free will inevitably introduces evil into the picture?

Either way... you're still no closer to proving that GOD created evil. Your "by proxy" correlation doesn't really cut it.

If I have the power to prevent something, and I do not do it, couldn't I be partially responsible? For instance, hypothetically, I have a 3 yr old child who picks up a pair of scissors. The child then hurts himself with the scissors. I didn't "do" anything. Am I to blame?

[NASpurs]

If you can not disprove the FSM, but still do not believe his Noodly teachings, you will see why some of us do not follow God.

I find that interesting why people are atheists.

To me, I believe in God because I can stare at nature and just be at amazement how something so beautiful came to this world and wonder about the universe and its vastness. It's kind of funny but I find it illogical not to believe in God which I wonder how anyone can be an atheist. I guess I find it romantic in a way.

[clambake]

If I have the power to prevent something, and I do not do it, couldn't I be partially responsible? For instance, hypothetically, I have a 3 yr old child who picks up a pair of scissors. The child then hurts himself with the scissors. I didn't "do" anything. Am I to blame?

no. the power of satan compelled you to do nothing.

[LnGrrrR]

I find that interesting why people are atheists.

To me, I believe in God because I can stare at nature and just be at amazement how something so beautiful came to this world and wonder about the universe and its vastness. It's kind of funny but I find it illogical not to believe in God which I wonder how anyone can be an atheist. I guess I find it romantic in a way.

Hey, I didn't say I was a robot. I'm still amazing at the beauty of the world, I wonder about the universe and its vastness, etc etc. I just don't think there was necessarily a puppet master up there setting everything in order.

In fact, personally speaking, how much more amazing if everything wasn't set up just right for us, and we still managed to be here anyways? I find life to be much more miraculous if you look at it from a finite point of view. If life goes on forever after when we're done here, it diminishes the experience of living. I try to live the fullest here, because I feel my time is limited. It's frightening, to be sure. But it forces me to take stock of where I am in life, whether I am going in the direction I need to be to make my life worthwhile.

[NASpurs]

Hey, I didn't say I was a robot. I'm still amazing at the beauty of the world, I wonder about the universe and its vastness, etc etc. I just don't think there was necessarily a puppet master up there setting everything in order.

In fact, personally speaking, how much more amazing if everything wasn't set up just right for us, and we still managed to be here anyways? I find life to be much more miraculous if you look at it from a finite point of view. If life goes on forever after when we're done here, it diminishes the experience of living. I try to live the fullest here, because I feel my time is limited. It's frightening, to be sure. But it forces me to take stock of where I am in life, whether I am going in the direction I need to be to make my life worthwhile.

Exactly I feel the same way. Everything that has a starting point has an end imo so one day this universe (and our Earth before that) will probably cease to exist. The human race is just a grain of sand in the feelingly eternity that is time and the feelingly infinite vastness that is the universe. Our life on our planet feels like such a miracle because we needed such coincidental occurrences and conditions to happen in a scientific point of view... maybe or maybe not but it's how I feel. But I would like to think there's a calmness to this chaotic universe and that's why I believe in God as well.

[Blake]

Someone donned with Free Will inevitably introduces evil into the picture... though as we've already established Free Will doesn't always lead to evil.

Huh?

Inevitably means a certainty.

That's why Blake believes that no one will have Free Will in Heaven... (even though he really doesn't believe in Heaven to begin with). He believes it has to be stripped away for evil to disappear altogether. But apparently he's diminished the power of the blood of He who has/will vanquish evil forever.

This is a philosophical debate based on theories of Bible doctrine.

My belief in Heaven is irrelevant to the debate.

Follow me here on what you just stated........I am not spinning anything here........these. are. things. YOU. stated:

Free Will inevitably introduces evil into the picture

I'm paraphrasing you here:

there is Free Will in Heaven

Now......based on these statements, the only logical conclusion I can make here is that there is no free will in Heaven.

If Free Will were to exists, and evil is inevitable AS YOU JUST STATED, then as it was with Lucifer, God will kick you out inevitably.....and destroy you.

Problem here is that contradicts the promise of everlasting life in the New Testament based on our belief in Jesus here in our earthly lives.

The only other way to go is to try to say that God will remove everything out of Heaven that might cause us to sin.......much like a parent would put safeguards on all the electrical outlets so that the kids won't get burned.

But then if this is the case, what is the point of putting us here on Earth to begin with for a meager +/-100 years at best?

What exactly is the reward of Heaven? What makes heaven better than Earth?

Part of the things that make life on Earth great are the times you get back up after getting hurt, overcoming fears, learning from mistakes, getting your hands dirty and building something with your own hands, etc.

If all this is removed, I'm not seeing any advantage of Heaven over Earth.......or even just non-existence.

[Phenomanul]

I don't address drive-bys LnGrrrR... nothing personal, I just don't like the fact that I have to follow multiple mini-threads of each individual question that is being challenged. so I'll pick a couple....

What are the odds that I woke up this morning at exactly 6:17 AM, got out of bed, made the exact same sequence of steps to get ready for work, drove to work at exactly the time I did, etc etc? If you add up all those possibilities, to arrive at that exact conclusion again is probably one in billions. And yet, I managed that today, somehow.

This is easy... Your sequence of events is governed by reason, not by chance. i.e. because you are endowed with the capacity to reason, you can choose to conform to any pattern. Fact is you recognize a pattern is there to begin with. Chance probability is not playing with your life.

If the genome is so complex that it must have been designed, how was God able to just "poof" himself into being?

This is a non-sequitor... GOD is a timeless sentient being. DNA clearly is not (otherwise it wouldn't be so fragile). DNA is infused with purpose but the molecule is not self-aware.

Well, God popping down to the planet and having some tea time with a few people in Times Square would help.

The operative term for salvation is Faith... saying, "here I Am!" runs contrary to that notion. Besides, GOD has walked among us before (with Adam&Eve, with Abraham, with Daniel, as JESUS, etc...).

How do you know the FSM hasn't existed all this time, and just recently decided to reveal his works? Prove that he hasn't existed throughout all known history.

As for FSM, its creators couldn't keep themselves from basking in the 'spotlight' of its popularity... the 'spoof' had an origin in their brain.

Your question is akin to asking:

How do you know that styrofoam didn't exist sometime in the past before we created it?

How do you know someone hadn't built the Empire State Building long before it was designed by its architects?

How do you know Hastelloy 276C alloys didn't naturally exist before we manufactured and engineered it to existence?

The questions are silly because those ideas, products, and structures were all conceived by man and do ented as such...

But the possibility to find life, or create life, or see abiogenesis, still theoretically exists.

and hence why your faith in that 'eventuality' can justify your rejection of GOD.

Do you think that NOT believing in something is a form of faith as well? For instance, do you have FAITH that the FSM doesn't exist?

It's a clash from my own metaphysical world view... so... I only need to have Faith that my GOD exists to render belief in all other gods null.... be they false, spoofed, or other...

Except no one can seemingly give an example of an irreducible item. Those proposed have been able, afaik, to be reduced.

Even if I accepted that as valid statement (which I don't)... There's still a glaring exception to that claim: none other than genetic material itself (DNA, RNA, tRNA, mRNA, ribosomal RNA, mitochondrial DNA, prions, etc...)

The MOBY for ID detractors...

[Blake]

I find that interesting why people are atheists.

To me, I believe in God because I can stare at nature and just be at amazement how something so beautiful came to this world and wonder about the universe and its vastness. It's kind of funny but I find it illogical not to believe in God which I wonder how anyone can be an atheist. I guess I find it romantic in a way.

I wonder why people are hard core atheists. I have no problem with kicking back and being agnostic.

[Blake]

Yes... but how does this diminish GOD in any way form or fashion? If He wanted to exist in a 'world' with other sentient en ies and share His power wasn't that up to Him?

If he knew evil was a possibility and did it any way, then he isn't all-wise.

[Phillip]

this thread

[Phenomanul]

Huh?

Inevitably means a certainty.

Is your comprehension really that limited? That shortsighted.

100 angels... 1 creates evil.

That means that the Free Will of the 99 remaining angels did not result in evil.

Hence, "Free Will doesn't always produce evil"....

What I'm saying is that the keys to Free Will for other beings not named GOD invariably led to evil... as in inevitably one out of millions and millions of GOD's sentient creatures would eventually walk the path towards evil.

So GOD was faced with two choices... allow that scenario to unfold. Or never create a Universe in which other beings are endowed with Free Will. In neither scenario is GOD responsible for creating evil itself though (the assertion both you and RG keep trying to make).... unless of course you're still arguing that He creates everything and is responsible for everything his sentient creatures do.

[Blake]

Is your comprehension really that limited? That shortsighted.

100 angels... 1 creates evil.

That means that the Free Will of the 99 remaining angels did not result in evil.

Hence, "Free Will doesn't always produce evil"....

What I'm saying is that the keys to Free Will for other beings not named GOD invariably led to evil.

So GOD was faced with two choices... allow it to happen. Or never create a Universe in which other beings are endowed with Free Will. In neither scenario is GOD responsible for creating evil itself.... unless of course you're still arguing that He creates everything.

33% of the angels actually.......but that's not really the point.....

So after you die and go to Heaven, is it possible to sin?........

yes or no, please.

Please.

An explanation after the yes or the no is acceptable.......but an actual "yes" or an actual "no" is required.

Please. Thank you.

[LnGrrrR]

I don't address drive-bys LnGrrrR... nothing personal, I just don't like the fact that I have to follow multiple mini-threads of each individual question that is being challenged. so I'll pick a couple....

Fair enough. I enjoy debating.

This is easy... Your sequence of events is governed by reason, not by chance. i.e. because you are endowed with the capacity to reason, you can choose to conform to any pattern. Fact is you recognize a pattern is there to begin with. Chance probability is not playing with your life.

My point was merely that miniscule odds of a particular sequence occurring does not in fact rule them out. I had no particular reason for stepping in the exact spot I did, or the exact time I got dressed, etc etc.

This is a non-sequitor... GOD is a timeless sentient being. DNA clearly is not (otherwise it wouldn't be so fragile). DNA is infused with purpose but the molecule is not self-aware.

I'll grant you that. I don't think anyone has the scientific ability though, to state definitely whether DNA could have evolved to its present form, or whether it just "appeared" in a state similar to the one we see today.

The operative term for salvation is Faith... saying, "here I Am!" runs contrary to that notion. Besides, GOD has walked among us before (with Adam&Eve, with Abraham, with Daniel, as JESUS, etc...).

These two sentences seem to contradict each other. If you need "faith" and appearing runs contrary, why did God choose to walk among us before? Was it to help foster belief in his words? 2000 years is a long time to go without a visit.

As for FSM, its creators couldn't keep themselves from basking in the 'spotlight' of its popularity... the 'spoof' had an origin in their brain.

Because they were divinely influenced as to the true reality of our one Creator.

Your question is akin to asking:

How do you know that styrofoam didn't exist sometime in the past before we created it?

How do you know someone hadn't built the Empire State Building long before it was designed by its architects?

How do you know Hastelloy 276C alloys didn't naturally exist before we manufactured and engineered it to existence?

The questions are silly because those ideas, products, and structures were all conceived by man.

One difference. Physical PRODUCTS couldn't, of course, exist before they existed. That doesn't make logical sense. But it's not illogical to say that a being could reveal himself to someone. In a way, facts do this all the time. After all, gravity didn't just "appear" after Newton discovered it, right?

and hence why your faith in that 'eventuality' can justify your rejection of GOD.

I don't need justification. I simply don't believe. I figure, if God wants me to believe, he knows my heart and what will convince me.

It's a clash from my own metaphysical world view... so... I only need to have Faith that my GOD exists to render belief in all other gods null.... be they false, spoofed, or other...

So you're taking it on FAITH that those other Gods don't exist right?

Even if I accepted that as valid statement (which I don't)... There's still a glaring exception to that claim: none other than genetic material itself (DNA, RNA, tRNA, mRNA, ribosomal RNA, mitochondrial DNA, prions, etc...)

AFAIK, scientists haven't developed an evolutionary path for DNA. That doesn't rule out the possibility.

[LnGrrrR]

I wonder why people are hard core atheists. I have no problem with kicking back and being agnostic.

A clarification: agnostic means "without knowledge". Atheist means "without belief".

I am an agnostic atheist. I don't know if anything is out there, I don't believe in anything though. Dawkins would probably consider himself a gnostic atheist. A pastor would probably consider himself a gnostic theist.

[LnGrrrR]

Exactly I feel the same way. Everything that has a starting point has an end imo so one day this universe (and our Earth before that) will probably cease to exist. The human race is just a grain of sand in the feelingly eternity that is time and the feelingly infinite vastness that is the universe. Our life on our planet feels like such a miracle because we needed such coincidental occurrences and conditions to happen in a scientific point of view... maybe or maybe not but it's how I feel. But I would like to think there's a calmness to this chaotic universe and that's why I believe in God as well.

Cool with me. You should check up scientific pantheism. Sounds similar to what you're talking about.